My personal experience with once saved always saved

[SyroMalankara]

It just so happens to be a model of evangelical theology merged with the modern relaxed semi/nonliturgical stuff. They always refer to their services as “meetings”, don’t like calling their clergy “priests” and generally neglect communion.

A lot of conservative evangelicals in England have gone the same way. I don’t like it - seems like a consumer-driven model.

And what about the Union model of the Churches of North and South India? There was no ordination via the Anglican model for minister’s were even suggested, nor were obligatory norms established. Basically, each pastor’s or congregation’s preference reigns. When arguments ensue, just start another one and hope the bishop (who is ordained somewhat in an Anglo-Lutheran manner) can sort it out.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I mean this politely—but could you folks please make an effort to stay on topic? Speaking for myself, I have limited free time available to read and reply, and it gets really hard and time consuming to wade through threads and find the on-topic posts scattered sparsely here and there among all the off-topic derailments.

 

[MacQ]

“What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”
(Rom. 9:22-24)

According to this text, the suggestion is that God creates some people as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, in order to actually both show forth his power and also magnify his great glory in the mercy he shows to those on whom he does not execute his wrath (which he would be entitled to do, but he instead graciously chose to lay the iniquities of his “vessels of mercy” on Jesus instead).

I reckon you’re on pretty thin ice if you’re suggesting that God intentionally created some of us to be evil foils.
Why would He have to 'endure with much patience" those He intentionally created to be destroyed?

Many scholars believe that letter to be inferring the opposite: that we are the ones who fit ourselves for destruction, by refusing to let the potter re-work our clay. Indeed, that is what this entire letter is about (the Jews clinging to their beliefs versus gentiles who submitted themselves to belief).

I have noticed that Paul’s letters are a favorite among scripture quoters who are trying to make some point about works and faith (and other things). But I think snipping a paragraph here and there is a questionable, if not spurious practice…as his letters are best taken in the context of the audience and purpose for which they were written. What you end up with is perhaps something he provided as a provocative challenge or an example, and not the core message. IN many cases, the opposite of the core message.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I find this interesting, as I reject ‘Once saved always saved’ yet I would say I experience what you have said here and not because of ‘Once saved always saved’ but rather from the unfathomable Divine Mercy of God, (St Faustina )

Diary of St Faustina -

"Mankind will not have peace until it turns with trust to My mercy. Oh, how much I am hurt by a soul’s distrust! Such a soul professes that I am Holy and Just, but does not believe that I am Mercy and does not trust in My Goodness. Even the devils glorify My Justice but do not believe in My Goodness" (Diary, 300).

"My mercy is greater than your sins and those of the entire world. Who can measure the extent of my goodness? For you I descended from heaven to earth; for you I allowed myself to be nailed to the cross; for you I let my Sacred Heart be pierced with a lance, thus opening wide the source of mercy for you. Come, then, with trust to draw graces from this fountain. I never reject a contrite heart. Your misery has disappeared in the depths of My mercy" (Diary, 1485).

"Oh, if sinners knew My mercy, they would not perish in such great numbers. Tell sinful souls not to be afraid to approach Me; speak to them of My great mercy" (Diary, 1396).

When it comes to why I reject ‘Once saved always saved’ I believe this passage Matthew 18:21-35 is very good -

In the same way, once saved always saved I believe is like saying, once the debt is forgiven it’s always forgiven, however in this passage, we see how by the officals refusal to show that same mercy, his debt was reinstated. I believe it works the same way when Catholics say we are saved by Faith and Works.

Also, if your interested AbideWithMe, Scott Hahn’s conversion story is really good, it’s Scott Hahn’s conversion story that converted my Father to Catholicism, as Scott Hahn used to be an evangelical protestant, his conversion story here - youtube.com/watch?v=FrQN8LHYg5g

It’s the absolute truth to the real presense of the Holy Eucharist that converts so many to catholicism I believe, If you ever get a chance AbideWithMe, I would like to encourage you to vists a local Catholic Church and just sit before the tabernacle and allow His real presense in the Holy Eucharist to warm your heart. Jesus waits for us night and day at the tabernacle, He will not reproach us for our crimes, He will not throw our sins in our face, what He will do is to wash us with the blood of his wounds.

God Bless

Hope I have helped

Thank you for reading
Josh

Josh–Thank you for your thoughtful post.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Though I’m not a Calvinist myself, I went to a large Presbyterian church in Philadelphia for a year, and I’ve had very close Presbyterian friends and Baptist friends who believed in the Perseverance of the Saints–“Once a son or daughter of God, always a son or daughter of God”. We’ve discussed this numerous times. My church specifically states it does not teach that people, once having followed Christ cannot turn away, but, again, we’re allowed to discuss the idea.

So, my experience seeing this belief in other people’s lives is that it’s strengthened their faith and drawn them into deeper holiness of life and devotion. I think some people are greatly helped by believing God has them so securely in his hand. They believe that they are so unconditionally loved that they are always a beloved child of God and a forever member of His family, and it actually gives them confidence to repent, return, and finish the race in the assurance that their own wayward tendencies (of which they are well aware) will not win the day.

The people I personally know deeply who believe this are sensitive and thoughtful, psychologically aware, well acquainted with their own weakness and failings, and do well with this stronger assurance from God. I suspect they are the sensitive souls who would be tormented and despairing in scrupulosity if they were Catholic.

This calls to mind the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes.

He was walking around buck nekkid, but was immensely happy and satisfied with himself.

But he was following a lie. His beliefs were not grounded in truth.

Similarly, just because someone is strengthened in their faith through a belief ought not be a factor in promoting that belief or encouraging one to continue in this false belief.

Very Catholic, this!

This is a false assurance that could be fatal, unfortunately, to their soul.

Perhaps. But then they too are following a false belief in that their own weaknesses and failings could not be strengthened by the grace of God through the Holy Sacraments.

PRmerger—I haven’t said anywhere that I’ve ever encouraged anyone to believe in OSAS. Since this was a thread about personal experiences, I gave my personal experience of observing the effect of this belief on the lives of people I know. I was “describing, not prescribing”, so to speak—describing candidly the good result I’ve observed, not prescribing that it should therefore be taught. Even when I don’t agree with what someone else believes, I think I need to pick my battles carefully. To me, since I’ve seen holy results from people specifically because of their belief in OSAS (not the shoddy, totally illogical and presumptuous “cheap grace” that’s being called OSAS), I just don’t see this as something I need to take up arms to combat. Without encouraging this belief, I can still decide to leave well enough alone and let people have the belief without arguing with them about it.

I have more I want to say, but it’s late here and I can’t find a way to say it that won’t be confusing. I’m a quiet introvert to being with and I like to mull things over on the back burner before speaking, and I’m also really busy…but I’d like to discuss this more, explaining my thoughts and throwing out some questions if I can find the time.

I can say quickly that I think analogies other than the Emperor’s New Clothes and Santa Claus are closer to what I was describing in my first post on this thread. It would be more like a person being afraid to cross a high, narrow bridge, but believing they have assurance from God that He will not let them fall. Some people may need to hear, “Hey, listen up, this can be dangerous–pay attention, don’t screw around and watch your step.” Other people may need the opposite. If the latter type of person becomes willing to make the journey despite their own self-doubt and misgivings, because for some reason they believe God has promised them He will not let them fall, then I’m not going to stand on the sidelines and insist they must believe that they can fall. I’ve taught a lot of kids to ride horses, and there are cocky kids who need warnings and then there are timid, sensitive kids who need nothing but reassurance that I’m really the one in control of the horse as they begin.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger—I haven’t said anywhere that I’ve ever encouraged anyone to believe in OSAS. Since this was a thread about personal experiences, I gave my personal experience of observing the effect of this belief on the lives of people I know. I was “describing, not prescribing”, so to speak—describing candidly the good result I’ve observed, not prescribing that it should therefore be taught.

It did appear to be an endorsement of the belief in others, even if you don’t believe it, because of the “good results” you observed.

And my point was simply that Truth Matters. Even if one gets good results, if it’s based on a false premise, we should not be endorsing said belief.

 

[AbideWithMe]

It did appear to be an endorsement of the belief in others, even if you don’t believe it, because of the “good results” you observed.

And my point was simply that Truth Matters. Even if one gets good results, if it’s based on a false premise, we should not be endorsing said belief.

Yes, I agree truth matters.

I’m sorry that my first post was not more clear that I was “describing not prescribing”.

I have, as I said, some questions which I hope to find time to write out.

 

[Maryann_C]

Don’t get me started…my friends and I could justify any deplorable action we wanted.

Welcome home Jon

 

[pwlj_christ87]

i think the root error in christianity is once saved always saved.

it sure does sound nice, and catholics can in fact live in that state… however without actions, or inactions… our faith is meaningless…

its funny how these so called bible based churches or denominations are really in fact very far from it…

the church always prevails and is our home, whether through scripture the eucharist or simply being apart of the community

 

[josh987654321]

Josh–Thank you for your thoughtful post.

It was my pleasure, thank you for reading.

 

[Googler]

Mr. Revert,
Such is the narrow path to get your tormented soul to Heaven.
I say, do your bit to get there.
Why complicate things? Let His Mother show you Jesus’ way. Her way, really, is the only way.
Without Immaculata, there would be no Heaven for man. Forget the annunciation / incarnation…
Too much? I don’t think so.
Our Mother leads Holy Angels, Saints, and poor sinners to her Son.
How? The Holy Spirit is her spouse (period).
It’s her job. And she never rests, because God creates so many worthy souls in His image.
He has no desire to lose even one of His beloved creatures.
He sent His Son to be punished for all of our sins, through Mary, so that we may live eternal.
Our Mother, Star of the Sea, refresh poor sinners!

 

[Zachary]

OSAS always seemed to me like waiting for a bus with one eye on my watch and the other on the homeless man in the corner and wondering why he doesn’t buy himself a ticket.