My priest told me off for kneeling

[Nekic]

Well…

A couple of weekends ago, my youth group held a kind of retreat, during which we had mass.

It was done in a makeshift chapel (a classroom), with the teachers desk for the altar.
I made sure that I set the chapel up, to make it look as reverent as possible.

Thoughout the mass, we were all arranged in a large circle around the altar, since there were no pews, and that is how we were arranged thoughout the retreat whenever we sat in the chapel.
Anyway, when it came to the Eucharistic prayer, my priest asked us to gather close around the altar. I agreed, with a groan of dispair. As if it wasn’t bad enough.

When the time came to kneel, I began to kneel, and he advised us all to remain standing. That was the last straw, and i politely said “I’d rather kneel, thanks”. He reluctantly allowed it.

Since then, for the past few weeks, whenever I had discussions with him, he’d always try to put me on the spot and ask me why I kneel. Once, while on the phone with him, he said that kneeling may be a gesture with a good intention, but has its roots in dictators forcing submission onto people, and that God doesn’t force submission.

I was stumped.

I have since come up with the following rebuttal:
In the Acts of the Apostles, Peter himself (I think) knelt on the rooftop to pray. God didn’t tell him not to kneel when he had the dream about all animals being clean to eat.

Also, once while in the sacristy preparing myself to serve at the altar, he showed me the GIRM in the front of his missal, and said that there was nowhere in the instruction that instructed the congrecation to kneel - only to stand or sit.
I was very confused.

So, I request of all the people of the forums:

What are your thoughts on the matter? What should I say to my priest?
Is there really no instruction in the GIRM that tells us to kneel at the appropriate times? If not, where is said rubric?
And why in God’s Almighty name, does a 75ish year old priest hate me kneeling so much? I don’t get it…

 

[Brendan]

Phillipians 2:9-10

Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Here Paul is also paraphrasing Isaiah

Isaiah 45:22-23

Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth, for I am God; there is no other!

By myself I swear, uttering my just decree and my unalterable word: To me every knee shall bend; by me every tongue shall swear,

Is God an unjust dictator to command this of us?

 

[Brenda_V]

The GIRM for every country is different. As a matter of fact, the last I heard, we here in the US are the only ones who have it in our GIRM to kneel from the beginning of the Eucharistic prayers until after the Great Amen. The OP is in Australia so your GIRM is different and your Priest showed it to you so he is right on this one (granted his original reasoning seemed flawed, he is technically correct).

Anyone else out there with better information?

Brenda V.

 

[Timmay]

The GIRM for every country is different. As a matter of fact, the last I heard, we here in the US are the only ones who have it in our GIRM to kneel from the beginning of the Eucharistic prayers until after the Great Amen.

I have actually heard the same. A good Priest-friend of mine who has served throughout Europe and Africa for a number of years told me about this. And when I travelled through Europe, I did notice very few people kneeling during the Consecration, though nobody gave me a second thought or asked me to stand.

 

[Beno]

With the GIRM used in Australia, I am wondering if gathering closely around the altar during the Eucharistic Prayer is permitted? It is not permitted here in the U.S.

 

[Veritas41]

I don’t think gathering aroundthe altar is permitted anywhere because it involves the proper roles for laity and clergy.

 

[ricmat]

I can’t speak for other countries, but I’ve attended mass in a lot of US parishes. It is quite common when a church is under construction, or mass is being held in a non-traditional place to remain standing throughout the Eucharistic prayer. This is for practical reasons: kneeling on a cement floor is probably not good for the old folks. And when you have folding chairs set up close together like airplane seats, you literally don’t have room to kneel anywhere.

So I’d guess that although kneeling wasn’t strictly wrong, it wasn’t required either in your case.

 

[gam197]

orignally posted by Brenda V
As a matter of fact, the last I heard, we here in the US are the only ones who have it in our GIRM to kneel from the beginning of the Eucharistic prayers until after the Great Amen.

In the US we kneel at the beginning of the Eucharistic prayers.

I heard this discussed on a Catholic Answers radio show and they said we should knee. A number of churches have taken out the kneelers. I can’t believe a youth group is going to have trouble kneeling.

Please don’t allow this priest to intimidate you. The event is over so why is he pursuing it? I would change the subject if he brings it up again.

 

[adrift]

I believe the universal norm is to kneel at the Consecration.

Colin B. Donovan from EWTN was asked a question on this
here is the question and his answer.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=456596&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2006&Author=&Keyword=kneeling&pgnu=2&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=58&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

 

[tee_eff_em]

I believe the universal norm is to kneel at the Consecration.

Colin B. Donovan from EWTN was asked a question on this
here is the question and his answer.

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=456596&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2006&Author=&Keyword=kneeling&pgnu=2&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=58&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

Yes, that is correct:

*43. …] Genuflectant vero, nisi valetudinis causa, vel ob angustiam loci vel frequentiorem numerum adstantium aliasve rationabiles causas impediantur, ad consecrationem. Hi vero qui non genuflectunt ad consecrationem, inclinationem profundam peragant dum sacerdos genuflectit post consecrationem.

Est tamen Conferentiae Episcoporum, gestus et corporis habitus in Ordine Missae descriptos ingenio et rationabilibus populorum traditionibus ad normam iuris aptare. [53] Attendendum tamen erit, ut sensui et indoli cuiusque partis celebrationis respondeant. Ubi mos est, populum ab acclamatione Sanctus expleta usque ad finem Precis eucharisticae et ante Communionem quando sacerdos dicit Ecce Agnus Dei genuflexum manere, hic laudabiliter retinetur.

Ad uniformitatem in gestibus et corporis habitibus in una eademque celebratione obtinendam, fideles monitionibus obtemperent, quas diaconus, vel minister laicus, vel sacerdos proferunt, iuxta ea quae in Missali statuuntur.*

Nutshell translation: [The faithful,] Unless prevented by lack of space or the numbers present, should kneel at the consecration. If they do not kneel, they should make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.

The local bishop’s conference is empowered to legislate norms in this matter.

Where it is customary for the faithful to kneel from the *Sanctus *to the end of the Eucharistic prayer, the practice is laudibly retained. [TFM: But not **required to be retained]

Follow the directions of the priest, deacon or master of ceremonies in accordance with what is layed out in the rubrics.

tee

 

[starling]

Did he “tell you off” as you put it, or did he simply tell you it wasn’t necessary under the circumstances?

 

[Joan_M]

The GIRM for every country is different. As a matter of fact, the last I heard, we here in the US are the only ones who have it in our GIRM to kneel from the beginning of the Eucharistic prayers until after the Great Amen. The OP is in Australia so your GIRM is different and your Priest showed it to you so he is right on this one (granted his original reasoning seemed flawed, he is technically correct).

Anyone else out there with better information?

Brenda V.

With respect, the GIRM for every country is not different. The GIRM is standard throughout the world, and it calls for kneeling for the Consecration (I forget the actual words). What is different is that each Conference of Bishops may request approval for some changes. However, the changes must be to do more of something, not less!

The US is not the only country where it is the norm to kneel from after the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Great Amen. This is also the norm in Ireland, Britain, Trinidad, and other countries.

Unfortunately, a number of our clergy make their own changes and try to impose them on others.

 

[Cygnus_X1]

My parish would be kneeling (and a few do anyway), but since we’re meeting in the parish hall with stackable chairs, it’s just not practical, so we stand. Our church was destroyed in a fire three years ago.

I’m sure we’ll kneel when the new church is opened.

 

[MTD]

Just ask to read no. 43 of his GIRM. It will say to kneel. Of course, the length of time for kneeling in your country may be shorter than in the US since the GIRM itself only stipulates kneeling during the Consecration whereas the adaptions for our country specify kneeling from the Sanctus to the great Amen. I’m quite sure the Holy See would not have approved standing at the Consecration in the adaptions for your country.

Maria

 

[MTD]

My parish would be kneeling (and a few do anyway), but since we’re meeting in the parish hall with stackable chairs, it’s just not practical, so we stand.

In late 2005 when our church was undergoing a small renovation, we were in a similar situation and had to use the parish hall for Masses, confessions, adoration, etc. But everyone knelt anyway (i.e., despite the stackable chairs). Those who needed them brought small pads on which to kneel.

Maria

 

[m134e5]

It was done in a makeshift chapel (a classroom), with the teachers desk for the altar.

That is entirely inappropriate. If it was a planned retreat, he should have made sure he found a place with an altar.

I made sure that I set the chapel up, to make it look as reverent as possible.

Thoughout the mass, we were all arranged in a large circle around the altar, since there were no pews, and that is how we were arranged thoughout the retreat whenever we sat in the chapel.

Anyway, when it came to the Eucharistic prayer, my priest asked us to gather close around the altar. I agreed, with a groan of dispair. As if it wasn’t bad enough.

When the time came to kneel, I began to kneel, and he advised us all to remain standing. That was the last straw, and i politely said “I’d rather kneel, thanks”. He reluctantly allowed it.

Good- that is the way it should be.

Since then, for the past few weeks, whenever I had discussions with him, he’d always try to put me on the spot and ask me why I kneel. Once, while on the phone with him, he said that kneeling may be a gesture with a good intention, but has its roots in dictators forcing submission onto people, and that God doesn’t force submission.

I wonder if the souls in hell, who fight against submission, would agree.

I was stumped.

I have since come up with the following rebuttal:
In the Acts of the Apostles, Peter himself (I think) knelt on the rooftop to pray. God didn’t tell him not to kneel when he had the dream about all animals being clean to eat.

Also, once while in the sacristy preparing myself to serve at the altar, he showed me the GIRM in the front of his missal, and said that there was nowhere in the instruction that instructed the congrecation to kneel - only to stand or sit.
I was very confused.

I don’t know what the GIRM says. All I know is that when the Eucharist is being consecrated you are to kneel. It sounds like he is trying to use Church documents to convince you to do what he wants- when he probably doesn’t know what those documents say in the first place.

So, I request of all the people of the forums:

What are your thoughts on the matter? What should I say to my priest?

Ask him why the youth do not care about their faith. Ask him why so few people know what the Church teaches? Ask him why Evangelical churches, who are much more “conservative” than Catholic churches are attracting Catholics to their churches. Ask him what saints, who the Church has infallibly declared to be in heaven, became saints by refusing to kneel.

Is there really no instruction in the GIRM that tells us to kneel at the appropriate times? If not, where is said rubric?

I don’t know- I’ve never read it- all I know is some have tried to stop people from kneeling and the Vatican has responded to it by instructing priests not to deny communion to those who kneel.

And why in God’s Almighty name, does a 75ish year old priest hate me kneeling so much? I don’t get it…

Because kneeling is an act of submission, and that submission reminds him of the 1940’s and the 1950’s (when he was growing up). Maybe he had a bad experience then, or enjoyed all the changes in the 60’s because it was something new. In time, he learned to dislike the past, and is afraid of anything that reminds him of it.

Never stop kneeling at the appointed times when someone tells you that you shouldn’t kneel.

 

[ricmat]

In late 2005 when our church was undergoing a small renovation, we were in a similar situation and had to use the parish hall for Masses, confessions, adoration, etc. But everyone knelt anyway (i.e., despite the stackable chairs). Those who needed them brought small pads on which to kneel.

Maria

How lucky you were that there was actually space to kneel. You must have a large parish hall.

 

[Nekic]

Did he “tell you off” as you put it, or did he simply tell you it wasn’t necessary under the circumstances?

No, he sisn’t “tell me off” so to speak, but in the tone of voice he uses with everyone he speaks to, it can be readily mistaken as being told off.

That is entirely inappropriate. If it was a planned retreat, he should have made sure he found a place with an altar.

Umm, it says in the GIRM that if the occasion calls for it, you can say mass not in a church, on a makeshift altar.
What actually happened was, that we set up the chapel for mass, then after I was done, I was like, “AARGH! I FORGOT WE HAD AN ALTAR OF REPOSE!!”
An altar of repose was put into the back of the church after the retreat before the one a couple of weeks ago. I told father, and he was like, “Yeah, I originally wanted to say mass there, but since we already have the chapel set up here, don’t worry about it.”
I was seething…

Good- that is the way it should be.

The thing is that I was the only one kneeling in a crowd of people standing around a teacher’s desk. Very disconcerting.

I don’t know what the GIRM says. All I know is that when the Eucharist is being consecrated you are to kneel.

Agreed.

It sounds like he is trying to use Church documents to convince you to do what he wants- when he probably doesn’t know what those documents say in the first place.

No, he is very intelligent. I think he knows what the church documents say.

Ask him why the youth do not care about their faith.

What has this got to do with kneeling?

Ask him why so few people know what the Church teaches?

We both know and agree on why: bad catechesis during the 70s.

Ask him why Evangelical churches, who are much more “conservative” than Catholic churches are attracting Catholics to their churches.

Again, what has this got to do with kneeling?

Ask him what saints, who the Church has infallibly declared to be in heaven, became saints by refusing to kneel.

That wouldn’t sway him.

[wuote]I don’t know- I’ve never read it- all I know is some have tried to stop people from kneeling and the Vatican has responded to it by instructing priests not to deny communion to those who kneel.
I said to him that I thought it very strange that there was no instruction to kneel in the GIRM. He said, “No it isn’t. You don’t need to kneel.”
And we have already had a discussion on kneeling for communion. Even though you should not deny communion to those who kneel for it, the priest must inform the communicant after mass as to the norms and why they are, and kindly request the communicant to stand for communion.

Because kneeling is an act of submission, and that submission reminds him of the 1940’s and the 1950’s (when he was growing up). Maybe he had a bad experience then, or enjoyed all the changes in the 60’s because it was something new. In time, he learned to dislike the past, and is afraid of anything that reminds him of it.

Yes, I think he does have bad experiences with the good ol’ days. He constantly refers back to them, about how the faith of the people was ridden with heretical beliefs because of the over-scrupulousness, like people not going for communion because they had sex with their spouse the night before. I don’t know his thoughts on the TLM, I haven’t discussed it with him, but he likes his post-concilliar church the way it is, thank you very much.

Never stop kneeling at the appointed times when someone tells you that you shouldn’t kneel.

I don’t intend to.

 

[Eireann]

Well I don’t know what they do on the rest of the planet, but here in Ireland we still kneel.

We stand at the entrance of the Priest.
Sit for the readings
Stand for the Gospel.
Stand for the Our Father, no we don’t hold hands.
Kneel for the Consecration.
Kneel after receiving.
Kneel at the end of Mass,
Stand when the Priest leaves the altar, and I have creaky knees to prove it.

And to the original poster, sometimes retreats do drift off from the normal protocol, especially if it was a youth Mass, or a make-shift venue

 

[LilyM]

Just ask to read no. 43 of his GIRM. It will say to kneel. Of course, the length of time for kneeling in your country may be shorter than in the US since the GIRM itself only stipulates kneeling during the Consecration whereas the adaptions for our country specify kneeling from the Sanctus to the great Amen. I’m quite sure the Holy See would not have approved standing at the Consecration in the adaptions for your country.

Maria

Exactly - I’ve seen precisely one church, in all my travelling around this wide brown land, where people didn’t kneel from the Sanctus to the great Amen. I’m sure the mere fact they do it means it’s required - Nekic can probably back me up that we as a nation are generally too lazy to do such a thing unnecessarily