My priest told me off for kneeling

[MTD]

Singularity is a form of egotism - it says, “Look how pious & orthodox & right-acting I am”: bad idea. The Liturgy is for us to glorify God, not to advertise our own egos. Piety & those other things are fine, but not as means of our self-advertisement.

The OP did not kneel to show how right-acting he was but to do what he thought was right. There is a huge difference there. Just because doing what is right would make one singular is not a good enough reason not to do it.

Jesus condemned doing good actions in order to be seen and praised by others. “Take heed that you do not your justice before men, to be seen by them: otherwise you shall not have a reward of your Father who is in heaven.” (Matt. 6:1)

But He did not condemn but rather encouraged doing good actions so that others might see and give glory to God. “So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Matt. 5:16)

And just because someone does not give glory to God for a good action you’ve done does not mean you shouldn’t have done it in the first place. Look at Jesus. “Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.” (Matt. 10:34) “And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted.” (Luke 2:34)

Maria

 

[Nekic]

1. Kneeling is not traditional - it came into Church practice because the barbarian tribes knelt to show submission - before that, Christians stood for the Liturgy (as they still do in the Eastern Rites)​

1. The Liturgy of the Mass is for the sake of charity: God’s Love to us, & our return of it to Him - take that away, & it becomes an empty charade. IMHO, to conform to the practice of others in the Liturgy is a form of showing love to God & to them - there is nothing inherently wrong with standing or sitting or kneeling.
2. The posture of the body is less important - important as it is - than the direction of the soul. If we don’t love one another, all the kneeling in the world will be an empty sham. (The Liturgy is not an excuse for us to judge the lack of piety of our neighbours - to do that, is a greater abuse than to mess with the rubrics)
3. If we adopt a different position from our neighbours, there is the danger of “singularity”. The Liturgy is anything but an occasion to display or indulge our own likes or dislikes - it is the Church as a body at prayer, & neither priest nor any member of the congregation has any business to “do his own thing” - however pious that thing may seem (or be); there is time enough for our own personal expressions of piety outside the Mass; which is when we need to put our own ideas aside. Singularity is a form of egotism - it says, “Look how pious & orthodox & right-acting I am”: bad idea. The Liturgy is for us to glorify God, not to advertise our own egos. Piety & those other things are fine, but not as means of our self-advertisement. ##

1. That’s the reason that my priest gave me. I find it hard to believe that barbarians influenced the Christian Faith in such a way. Do you have any proof to substantiate your charge?
2. There is nothing inherently wrong, but still, there are postures that are more appropriate at certain times than others. Kneeling shows that you are defenceless before the physical presence of God.
3. Who says that because I kneel, that my soul isn’t in the right direction, just because everyone else is standing?
4. If all your friends are in a group, in the process of murdering someone, will you risk the “singularity” then?
   I don’t think so.
   What matters is what is right. It is not right to bend the rubrics, and I don’t want to do that which is not right.
   Simple as that. None of this "look at me, I’m more pious than the rest of you blows raspberries "
   I get enough of that from my own head.
   I knelt because it was the right thing to do, and because I feel very, VERY uncomfortable doing otherwise.

 

[Brendan]

1. Kneeling is not traditional - it came into Church practice because the barbarian tribes knelt to show submission - before that, Christians stood for the Liturgy (as they still do in the Eastern Rites)​

First of all, showing submission to God is EXACTLY what we are suppossed to do when we are present before Him.

And if you want to get particular, the standing thing the Easterners do isn’t really traditional either, it’s a Greek influence.

The Aramaic cultures Prostrated themselves when God appeared. So it you want to go back to true tradition, fall down on your face during the concecration (quite a number of monasteries still do this actually)

And then there is Paul’s words (that I had posted earlier in this thread)

Phillipians 2:9-10

Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Here Paul is also paraphrasing Isaiah

Isaiah 45:22-23

Turn to me and be safe, all you ends of the earth, for I am God; there is no other!

By myself I swear, uttering my just decree and my unalterable word: To me every knee shall bend; by me every tongue shall swear,

I suppose it would be a stretch to claim that Isaiah was influenced by barbarians to kneel

Besides, that is God Himself speak to Isaiah and saying those words.

So, it both God and the Pope (GIRM) say I should kneel at this point, I see no reason in listening to anyone else.

In fact, the real traditional

 

[johnpaul2_fan]

Also Christ “fell prostrate in prayer.” (Matthew 26:39) while praying to the Heavenly Father. And I would hope that people would know by now that we should immitate Christ.

 

[Hannah44]

I know we have directives regarding proper protocol during liturgical celebrations but my observation is that if the spirit moves you to kneel out of reverence and awe who can judge that this is wrong? If I could I would be face down, on the floor at the consecration . . . .

 

[mrs_abbott]

The GIRM for every country is different. As a matter of fact, the last I heard, we here in the US are the only ones who have it in our GIRM to kneel from the beginning of the Eucharistic prayers until after the Great Amen. The OP is in Australia so your GIRM is different and your Priest showed it to you so he is right on this one (granted his original reasoning seemed flawed, he is technically correct).

Anyone else out there with better information?

Brenda V.

Stupid question but what does GIRM stand for?

 

[Brenda_V]

Stupid question but what does GIRM stand for?

(G)eneral (I)nstruction of the (R)oman (M)issal. In other words it has all the words and actions we and the Priest are supposed to do during the Mass.

Brenda V.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Stupid question but what does GIRM stand for?

General Instruction of the Roman Missal

You can see the translation adapted for use in the USA here GIRM

tee

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There are also exceptions allowed for Masses said on retreats and at monasteries and such.

The situation described sounds like standing would’ve been more conducive for the group. Kneeling takes more room than standing, but I was not there.

However, at a mens retreat I attended, standing was the appropriate position, being the space and crowd that was involved.

Jim

 

[mrs_abbott]

(G)eneral (I)nstruction of the (R)oman (M)issal. In other words it has all the words and actions we and the Priest are supposed to do during the Mass.

Brenda V.

I see. Thanks! I guess I’ve just never heard of it before.

 

[hopefull]

If during the Mass, Jesus walked into the room, I bet most everyone in that room would kneel.

Apparently your priest does not recogized that reality as clearly as you do. Perhaps he feels guilty himself. God bless you for your witness!

 

[logos33]

I was once told (though I cannot validate this) that in the medieval times when one would genuflect before a king or queen, on each side of them would stand a knight with a sword. If the king or queen was unhappy with that person kneeling on one knee before them, one of the guards would chop off their head (Ahh, the joys of the Medieval times).

Anyway, we do the same thing everytime we drop to our knees before our King. And, though Christ does not have a guard on each side of Him, our posture shows our humility and willingness to “lay down our own lives” before that King. Kneeling is not just some gesture we do out of respect (which we should) it is also a great act of humility. You quoted Philippians, “that at His name every knee must bend in the heavens on the earth and under the earth.” That is just His name, how much more when He is truly present before us?

I often wonder why us priests do these things, and I can see one thing. You have to understand we are before Jesus everyday, we are given the divine power to turn bread and wine into Him, sometimes that supernatural occurrence can become very commonplace, and reverence is replaced by obligation, something we do rather than something we believe. This is not across the board, but it is quite possible.

I would ask him if he genuflects after the consecration than how come you are not allowed to do the same? He is clearly showing reverence, why aren’t you allowed to do the same?

Just some food for thought.

And, far be it from me to judge this priest, in particular, but you said sometimes he is ultra traditional and sometimes ultra “liberal.” Thing is that is truly what a “liberal” is someone who goes where the wind takes them, what is the quote, if we stand for nothing we fall for anything. Perhaps, that is what is the case is here.

Just my .02

God Bless

Fr. Brian