My Problem With Mary

[Theophilus76]

I’m a new Catholic convert (grew up Protestant). When I began to expore the Catholic faith, one of the things I didn’t dive into very deep is devotion to Mary (the mother of Jesus). It was not necessary for Confirmation, so I just didn’t look into it much.

Today, I find myself drawn to the Rosary and other Marian devotions daily. I’ve learned of a group of folk who consecrate themselves to Mary for the purpose of being led closer to Christ. I have cerebral knowledge of the fact that Mary does not get the highest devotion all Christians give to God, but here’s my problem: some Marian devotions appear to honor Mary in the same way one honors the Trinity.

Here are some examples: “My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you…” and “Virgin Mother of God, Mary Immaculate, we unite ourselves to you…” and one prayer I read this monring after receiving the Eucharist, “…I have received thy most beloved Son…With love I humbly return Him and offer Him to thee…”

I’m comfortable with Mary’s Heavenly Queenship, her unique place in the history of salvation, praying the Rosary, and even imploring her to pray for various special needs. However, when I read these lines from the three prayers sampled above, I’m taken back quite a bit. Shouldn’t I only give myself entirely to the Trinity, desire to unite myself with the Trinity, and once received in the Eucharist, hold on to the Real Presence for all it’s spiritual graces?

 

[animalis]

We ought to love each other equally. This is the teaching of S. John of the Cross. In order to do this, you need a deeper, keener self-knowledge, the ability to be temperate, do good without regard to human respect.

That being said we ought to love our enemy. Pray for our enemies. This is provided in a growth of grace that liberates our self-love, so that we may give ourselves completely to the world around us. (not on vanity, cf. Jas 4:4, but on hope cf. Rom 8:24) Mary is the central figure for humanity due to how she received the begotten Son. Salvation centers in her womb, and is given in sacrifice and restored in justice.

This is why Pope Leo XIII said in one of his many encyclicals that we go to Jesus through Mary. To give our all to the Lord, there is no total way to totally do it this but in the total mode of Mary. Simply, because she said “be it done onto me according to thy will”.

If we fall back in our love for any person, we lack in love. And this files against the greatest commandment given by Our Lord.

Remember the honor we given our Lord in worship is not our own. The Son honors Father. We cannot give anything of our own to him. We are partakers of the divine nature not by our own nature but by participation of the Sacrifice that originated in time in the womb of Mary. She gets the credit for your merit because it was done by the Will of the Lord in her womb, in her center of person. And she is too good to hold anything back from you.

We should never presume that our worship is the right answer, nor our judgments. We ought to stay close to the fact that Mary gave her body, the lamb of God, on the cross. His flesh was her flesh within her. His blood was her blood within her. Jesus was born out from her, not apart from her.

Lets not divorce them in our affections!

 

[fred_conty]

You may chose whatever prayers you feel you want to say. And if you feel uncomfortable with any private prayer, then say another prayer instead.

Some prayers are written in a different time and may seem foreign to us today. There was a time when the manners, chevalry and poetry were observed in a customary way but seem out of sync for us today. But then again, some people like those times and ways. It is what you like and don’t like.

From what you said, to me you have a balanced view of Mary. You seem to have a healthy outlook. But there still is more to be understood about Mary and a deep personal relationship can go deeper.

One of the ideas of Mary is her motherhood, that is of each one of us. Once we understand we have a mother in heaven who really cares and listens to her son/daughter, and cares, then the relationship with her deepens over time.

To get a good understanding of her motherhood, read Lumen Gentium by the recent St.Pope John Paul II. He does a wonderful job of explaining how close she is to each one by her motherhood, and what that motherhood means.

You mentioned “folk who consecrate themselves to Mary”. Reference this for a short explaination.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12087650#post12087650

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[Ed_Silvia]

However, when I read these lines from the three prayers sampled above, I’m taken back quite a bit. Shouldn’t I only give myself entirely to the Trinity, desire to unite myself with the Trinity, and once received in the Eucharist, hold on to the Real Presence for all it’s spiritual graces?

Theophilus76,

Pls keep in mind*** those lines*** are approved by our church. That St Mary can and does help us from beyond the veil to know, love and serve God is a basic catholic belief. Popes, Bishops, Priests & laypersons have believed it for centuries. When we pray to St Mary we are mindful that Our Lord is right there because as the Angel Gabriel said of Her. Luke 1:28 …, the Lord is with thee: How much more is Our Lord with Her now.

 

[Della]

Then language used is that of love, which knows no limitations. Jesus’ love for us certainly had no boundaries since he gave his life for us. We are to do the same with all the family of God.

When we say we love another person we don’t first say, “Well, I love God more, but I do love you too” do we. We simply say, “I love you, I’m yours.” This is true within families and among friends. We know that God gets our adoration and worship and that all other loves are subordinate to that, but we don’t say that when expressing our love for another.

When a soul loves Mary it cannot help saying so and giving to her everything he has in devotion to her. We are safe in doing so because we are aligning our hearts with that of Mary, whose heart was always aligned with God. She keeps none of our devotion for herself, but rightly directs it to God on our behalf.

However, as fred conty wrote we need not recite any prayers except the public prayers of the Church, such as the Mass and the Divine Office, and even the Divine Office is optional for lay people. Whatever devotion aids you in loving God, his saints and his family here on earth is perfectly fine. Devotions are meant to aids to faith, so whichever ones suit your spirituality best are fine.

 

[Theophilus76]

We ought to love each other equally… we ought to love our enemy…so that we may give ourselves completely to the world around us.

Interesting, I like this. I’ve never thought of it like that before, and I’ll look further into this line of thinking. So how should this thought form a correct understand of Mary?

…Pope Leo XIII said … that we go to Jesus through Mary. To give our all to the Lord, there is no total way to totally do it this but in the total mode of Mary.

This echos the first line in the Morning Offering prayer “Oh my Jesus, through the immaculate Heart of Mary, I offer you …” But, I thought I pray to God “in Jesus name, amen.” And, isn’t it the Holy Spirit that intercedes for me in prayer (Rom 8:26) rather than Mary? Or does this quote mean I become like Mary by sharing her faith when I pray to God; giving myself totally to Him and putting full faith and confidence He is listening to my prayer and will answer according to His perfect will? (i.e. It’s as if I’m saying Mary’s words at the Annunciation, “May it be done to me according to your word.”

Remember the honor we given our Lord in worship is not our own. The Son honors Father. We cannot give anything of our own to him. We are partakers of the divine nature not by our own nature but by participation of the Sacrifice that originated in time in the womb of Mary. She gets the credit for your merit because it was done by the Will of the Lord in her womb, in her center of person. And she is too good to hold anything back from you.

We should never presume that our worship is the right answer, nor our judgments. We ought to stay close to the fact that Mary gave her body, the lamb of God, on the cross. His flesh was her flesh within her. His blood was her blood within her. Jesus was born out from her, not apart from her.

I’ll need some help understanding this part. I freely chose to follow Christ, so why wouldn’t I have honor to freely give or withhold, too? Additionally, regarding right worship and judgments, I need to learn, or at least figure out to the best of my ability, the right way to worship God or form correct judgments about him. Does the quote above indicate these things really don’t matter becuase Jesus formed bodily in Mary’s womb; thereby exchanging devine flesh and blood?

 

[Theophilus76]

When a soul loves Mary it cannot help saying so and giving to her everything he has in devotion to her.

It’s very interesting you say this. I have felt a noticable tug toward Mary; actally more of a strong draw, like a large magnate. This is what set me on my current path toward contemplating the nature of Mary and how to appropriately honor her. I just want to do it correctly without worhiping her instead of God, becuase some of these Marian devotions seem pretty strong to me.

We are safe in doing so because we are aligning our hearts with that of Mary, whose heart was always aligned with God. She keeps none of our devotion for herself, but rightly directs it to God on our behalf.

Is this to say when I venerate Mary, I’m acually venerating God at the same time becuase she is alligned with God? Is this also true when I venerate St. Therese, too, or any other saint?

 

[venite_adoremus]

First, congratulations on your conversion. I remember my own struggle with this concept, and my very Masonic father yelling at me (expletives deleted), “But she was just a vessel!”

Yes, indeed. A vessel for what? For the incarnation of God Himself in our human flesh, in the person of Jesus Christ. He drew His entire human nature from this woman. The Theotokos, the God-Bearer. The Mother of God.

She is the new Eve, the mother of all humanity. He gave her to us from the cross. She shared His passion (try to experience the Stations of the Cross from her eyes). The two most important church dogmas about her are the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. To be conceived immaculate (focus on heart and soul here, as well as body) is a singular privilege. Imagine it. To be without sin. By the special grace of God. To be without even the desire to commit sin. And to be able to remain sinless for an entire lifetime (which, in her case, was at least twenty or so years beyond that of Our Lord), despite temptations far beyond anything we will ever imagine. Amazing. The beauty of this miracle is not only an example to us, but an inspiration for us. It is the work of God. It is not of her own merit. It was done to her, with her full consent. By honoring her Immaculate Heart, we praise the work of God.

So, if death is a penalty for sin, why would death hold her? The hope of her Assumption, and her rightful place as the first fruit of the Resurrection, makes her a queen among humans. This imagery is drawn both from the book of Revelation and from the Old Testament psalms.

Much of the misunderstanding of Mary in our culture is actually a couched denial. It’s really not about her, but about Jesus. The world does not want to admit that the Eternal God of heaven stooped to our level by taking human flesh, with all of its weakness. It’s like fasting. We do it because Our Lord did it. We love Mary because He did, and does.

 

[Della]

It’s very interesting you say this. I have felt a noticable tug toward Mary; actally more of a strong draw, like a large magnate. This is what set me on my current path toward contemplating the nature of Mary and how to appropriately honor her. I just want to do it correctly without worhiping her instead of God, becuase some of these Marian devotions seem pretty strong to me.

Mary calls us to herself in order to deepen our love for Jesus, her Son. The veneration we give to Mary is all tied up in Christ’s Incarnation and his sacrifice for our sins. By honoring the Mother of God, we honor Christ’s life, death and resurrection through and with her.

We cannot offer Mary worship in the proper sense of the word because we do not offer her sacrifice, as we do to God. In the OT God called for sacrifices whenever he wished to renew his covenant with his people. His last covenant is Christ’s blood, offered once for all, which we re-present to the Father in the consecration of the bread and wine. We offer no such sacrifice to Mary because she is not God, but she is the highest in heaven next to Christ himself.

Is this to say when I venerate Mary, I’m acually venerating God at the same time becuase she is alligned with God? Is this also true when I venerate St. Therese, too, or any other saint?

Yes, because all of us are members of Christ’s body and cannot be separated from him or from one another if we remain in his love. This is how we understand the Communion of Saints in which we all share our spiritual goods with each other. So, when we honor Mary or any of the Saints we are honoring Christ, who made them (and makes us) holy. It all goes back to him.

 

[Theophilus76]

…the Immaculate Conception…To be without sin…without even the desire to commit sin.

Ok, so let me think this through: Mary was born without inordinate desires of the flesh (oringinal sin)? So God created a female, for a second time in history, without these tendencies (the first of which was Eve) and humanity got a second chance through Mary since Eve blew it the first go-around. Is this why Mary is called the second Eve? If so, then I get Mary’s description as the Second Eve (something I’ve never fully understood before until this very moment).

Amazing. The beauty of this miracle is not only an example to us, but an inspiration for us. It is the work of God. It is not of her own merit. It was done to her, with her full consent. By honoring her Immaculate Heart, we praise the work of God.

Ok, so Mary deserves much more respect than I originally gave her. She has a truely special place in history; the second created female without concupiscence. Truely awesome.

But how does this lead me to praying to the Trinity through her, or giving myself wholy to her ranther than to the Trinity?

 

[Mary_Ellen]

But how does this lead me to praying to the Trinity through her, or giving myself wholy to her ranther than to the Trinity?

You may certainly pray to the Trinity - nothing stopping you.
To roughly use St. de Montfort’s analogy, when we offer our prayers to God through Mary it is as if we are offering an imperfect apple to the King by handing it to the Queen Mother first. She cuts out the bruised bits and presents it to the King on a golden plate on our behalf.

It’s the same in consecrating ourselves to her. I haven’t consecrated myself to Mary in and of herself but to Jesus Through Mary. She acts as a gatekeeper but only and totally acting in and with the Will of God. Nothing she does is outside the Will of God, her will is one with His. She doesn’t act as a barrier between me and God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - but as a perfect conduit.

I’ve been studying with a group preparing for the renewal of our Consecration to Jesus through Mary every spring and summer for about 5 years, mostly working with de Montfort’s writings, and I learn new stuff every year. Mariology is very deep. Don’t let it trip you up. As a PP wrote, you seem to have a very balanced view of Mary.

 

[MacQ]

The Council of Vatican II advises us not to forego devotions to Mary, and that in said devotions we neither be too timid nor overexuberant, remembering always that everything about her points to Jesus.

A simple way to think about it is that she is a natural place to turn…the way we might talk to our deceased mothers or grandmothers. To eschew her is to miss out on a friend in heaven. Go for it. Love her!

When we meet Jesus, do you think He will say “You can’t be here in heaven…you gave too much honor to my Mother”?

 

[CrossofChrist]

I’m a new Catholic convert (grew up Protestant). When I began to expore the Catholic faith, one of the things I didn’t dive into very deep is devotion to Mary (the mother of Jesus). It was not necessary for Confirmation, so I just didn’t look into it much.

Today, I find myself drawn to the Rosary and other Marian devotions daily. I’ve learned of a group of folk who consecrate themselves to Mary for the purpose of being led closer to Christ. I have cerebral knowledge of the fact that Mary does not get the highest devotion all Christians give to God, but here’s my problem: some Marian devotions appear to honor Mary in the same way one honors the Trinity.

Here are some examples: “My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you…” and “Virgin Mother of God, Mary Immaculate, we unite ourselves to you…” and one prayer I read this monring after receiving the Eucharist, “…I have received thy most beloved Son…With love I humbly return Him and offer Him to thee…”

I’m comfortable with Mary’s Heavenly Queenship, her unique place in the history of salvation, praying the Rosary, and even imploring her to pray for various special needs. However, when I read these lines from the three prayers sampled above, I’m taken back quite a bit. Shouldn’t I only give myself entirely to the Trinity, desire to unite myself with the Trinity, and once received in the Eucharist, hold on to the Real Presence for all it’s spiritual graces?

We’re following Jesus’ example in giving ourselves entirely to Mary. Our goal is to follow and imitate Christ perfectly.

First, we see in the Gospel of St. John that Jesus has given us Mary as our Mother. That means we ought to treat Mary as Mother as Jesus treated her, if we are to follow Christ perfectly.

Next, we see how the whole Trinity, God, gave himself entirely to the Virgin Mary in the Incarnation: Christ gives himself completely to Mary by allowing himself to become man in her womb; the Father gives himself completely to Mary by giving up his Son, since before all creation the Father gives himself up completely in begetting the Son; the Holy Spirit gives himself up completely to Mary by becoming her Spouse and overshadowing her.

Finally, evidence that Christ wants us to give ourselves entirely to the Virgin Mary like he did is proven in the Assumption. Christ gave himself up to Mary in her whole person, body and soul, and Mary is taken body and soul into heaven, fully united to God and crowned as Queen. The Assumption serves as assurance that we can give our entire body and soul to Mary’s whole person, because she is perfectly united with God, and God the Holy Trinity is ever present to us.

 

[chimo]

I’m a new Catholic convert (grew up Protestant). When I began to expore the Catholic faith, one of the things I didn’t dive into very deep is devotion to Mary (the mother of Jesus). It was not necessary for Confirmation, so I just didn’t look into it much.

Today, I find myself drawn to the Rosary and other Marian devotions daily. I’ve learned of a group of folk who consecrate themselves to Mary for the purpose of being led closer to Christ. I have cerebral knowledge of the fact that Mary does not get the highest devotion all Christians give to God, but here’s my problem: some Marian devotions appear to honor Mary in the same way one honors the Trinity.

Here are some examples: “My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you…” and “Virgin Mother of God, Mary Immaculate, we unite ourselves to you…” and one prayer I read this monring after receiving the Eucharist, “…I have received thy most beloved Son…With love I humbly return Him and offer Him to thee…”

I’m comfortable with Mary’s Heavenly Queenship, her unique place in the history of salvation, praying the Rosary, and even imploring her to pray for various special needs. However, when I read these lines from the three prayers sampled above, I’m taken back quite a bit. Shouldn’t I only give myself entirely to the Trinity, desire to unite myself with the Trinity, and once received in the Eucharist, hold on to the Real Presence for all it’s spiritual graces?

Some people are drawn to Jesus through Mary while others are drawn to Mary through Jesus. For instance in the Catholic Church the Mass is centered a lot on Jesus. You would hardly get to know Mary in the Mass. You have to get to know her outside the Mass. This is where the Catholic comes to know of Mary. In the Eastern Orthodox Church it is the other way around we come to know of Mary. In the Divine Liturgy which is the same as the Mass for Catholics we come to know of Mary throughout the Liturgy because she is mentioned at least 13x. The priest censes her Icon and the congregation often seeks her intercessions throughout the Liturgy. The Orthodox will come to know of Mary within the Liturgy. There is no need of devotions outside the Liturgy because the average Orthodox comes to know her explicitly in their Liturgies.

In the Catholic Church we come to know of Jesus in the Mass and He will introduce us to Mary. In the Eastern Church we come to know more of Mary in the Liturgy as she introduces us to Jesus. While the Catholic speaks more of Jesus within the Mass the Catholic speaks more of Mary outside the Mass. In observing the Eastern Church the experience is as we speak more of Mary within our Divine Liturgy we tend to speak more of Jesus outside the Liturgy. In both Churches the experiencing of both Jesus and Mary is maintained but utilizing different but complimentary approaches.

There is nothing wrong in uniting ourselves to the Mother of God. Our Lord Jesus is closely united with His Mother and He would want us as well. In our closeness to the Mother is this ever increasing strength we will gain with our Lord. Her whole vocation is to lead us to her Son. In the Orthodox Church they always show that the Mother and the Son are always united. She loves to give to us her Son. So in truth by giving ourselves to Mary we are led more into the very life of her Son.

 

[ready]

Loving and honoring Mary does not make one love and honor Jesus less. In fact, He receives more love and honor from you when His dearest and most beloved Mother is loved and honored by you. Who wouldn’t feel more loved and honored when his/her dearest Mother is loved and honored by his/her friends. Who wouldn’t feel offended when his/her dearest Mother is not loved and honored by his/her friends. The more you love and honor Mary, the more love and honor you show Jesus. God bless you.

 

[whoisdiss]

I know what you mean, myself am new to the Catholic faith but I do have a strong devotion to Mary. I remember when I first started making this devotion to her and seeing some of the prayers. I myself felt like they were honoring Mary too much. But I was able to get passed this.

You know, I had heard from a Catholic Priest once that the Saints are not gods they’re our friends. And as our friends we can ask them to pray for us, we can ask them to be there for us, and we can show love to them. That’s what we do to our friends on earth don’t we? Yet we do not worship our friends. These prayers are a way of showing our love for our friend Mary. But Mary is also just more of our friend she is our mother!

We show love to our spiritual mother just as we show love to our biological mother. We don’t worship our biological mother when we say “I love you so much, you’re always there for me and pray for me.” We can do the same with Mary. We aren’t worshiping her.

You should start praying the Rosary more, this will get you alot closer to Mary, Our Mother, look at some of the approved apparitions, and read writings about her. Try to developed a personal relationship with her, and if you do this you can become more comfortable with her.

---

God bless.