My problem with the concept of hell

[BigGofWi]

I have always had problems wondering why any god would place a person into eternal damnation. It is said that at the beginning of life we are innocent, what changes that? How can it be possible for an almighty god to punish people who honestly do not know any better? If everyone had a sound concept of hell why would anyone sin? If we are naturally drawn to sin how can we be punished for it? It is like putting a prisoner away for being addicted to a substance. It just doesn’t make any sense. They can’t control their urge for the chemicals. Also people who commit murder usually aren’t stable people. I doubt that a murderer has control over himself at the time of his crime. It doesn’t make them bad people, they are just troubled. How can anyone be punished if they are not sane?

 

[Areopagite]

I have always had problems wondering why any god would place a person into eternal damnation. It is said that at the beginning of life we are innocent, what changes that? How can it be possible for an almighty god to punish people who honestly do not know any better? If everyone had a sound concept of hell why would anyone sin? If we are naturally drawn to sin how can we be punished for it? It is like putting a prisoner away for being addicted to a substance. It just doesn’t make any sense. They can’t control their urge for the chemicals. Also people who commit murder usually aren’t stable people. I doubt that a murderer has control over himself at the time of his crime. It doesn’t make them bad people, they are just troubled. How can anyone be punished if they are not sane?

If, in fact, a person does not know any better (about what sin is, etc.) then they will not be punished. However, if someone has knowledge that what he’s doing is evil (even if he has a good intent … or a bad intent, which makes it even worse) then he is liable for punishment.

Also, it is conceivable (at least, I think) that someone may suffer urges (to certain substances, for example) beyond their control, in which case, God will not punish them for that (even if the civil law does). However, if he does have control of himself and gives into the substances anyway (knowing that it’s wrong) then he is liable for punishment. Usually, people have varying shades of control and awareness of their actions, so it’s not clear cut, but it’s true that the more awareness and control over your actions that you have, the more culpable you will be if you knowingly choose evil.

You seem to be claiming, correct me if I’m wrong, that all bad people don’t know any better. That is quite a claim. Most people would disagree with you, even non-religious people. I would say that many murderers do know what they’re doing. Perhaps you could argue that they don’t know* at the time* very much, but they could be in control when they set out to actually do the crime.

Since no one willfully and knowing chooses to do evil, according to you (right?), then why punish anyone? Even in this life? Isn’t it possible to choose to do something that you know isn’t the right choice?

I hope that helps. There’s plenty of more to say on this subject. Let me know if you don’t buy it.

 

[BigGofWi]

If, in fact, a person does not know any better (about what sin is, etc.) then they will not be punished. However, if someone has knowledge that what he’s doing is evil (even if he has a good intent … or a bad intent, which makes it even worse) then he is liable for punishment.

Also, it is conceivable (at least, I think) that someone may suffer urges (to certain substances, for example) beyond their control, in which case, God will not punish them for that (even if the civil law does). However, if he does have control of himself and gives into the substances anyway (knowing that it’s wrong) then he is liable for punishment. Usually, people have varying shades of control and awareness of their actions, so it’s not clear cut, but it’s true that the more awareness and control over your actions that you have, the more culpable you will be if you knowingly choose evil.

You seem to be claiming, correct me if I’m wrong, that all bad people don’t know any better. That is quite a claim. Most people would disagree with you, even non-religious people. I would say that many murderers do know what they’re doing. Perhaps you could argue that they don’t know* at the time* very much, but they could be in control when they set out to actually do the crime.

Since no one willfully and knowing chooses to do evil, according to you (right?), then why punish anyone? Even in this life? Isn’t it possible to choose to do something that you know isn’t the right choice?

I hope that helps. There’s plenty of more to say on this subject. Let me know if you don’t buy it.

Well I don’t believe in bad people, only misguided people. I also do not believe in a prison system, correctional systems work much better with higher success rates. I still dont get why God has to punish people while they are naturally flawed to begin with.

 

[Just_Lurking]

C. S. Lewis has an interesting position on this, elaborated in his book The Great Divorce. Hell is a just a bleak, dreary place outside of God’s presence, where people spend their afterlife without purpose, just like atheists are supposed to do here on earth. People in Hell can choose to leave to go to Heaven at any time, but they have to accept Heaven on God’s terms. People who are addicted to some sin need to choose between continuing in their sin vs. abandoning their sin in favor of being with God. Thus, the people who remain in Hell are making a continual choice to live apart from God.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I have always had problems wondering why any god would place a person into eternal damnation.

people place themselves in seperation from G-d.

It is said that at the beginning of life we are innocent, what changes that?

no its not, we are born in a state of original sin, the stain from the fall of adam and eve

How can it be possible for an almighty god to punish people who honestly do not know any better?

who doesnt know better? those who truly dont are insane, the extremely vast majority do know better and choose to act otherwise.

If everyone had a sound concept of hell why would anyone sin?

bird in the hand sysndrome, you know the old saying, a bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush? for instance, why do homosexuals perform disordered acts? they take pleasure from it and that pleasure is more important than their relationship with G-d.

If we are naturally drawn to sin how can we be punished for it?

because it offends G-d. we are naturally drawn to a number of hedonistic behaviours, we have a choice between them and fulfilling our obligation to G-d. its a choice.

It is like putting a prisoner away for being addicted to a substance. It just doesn’t make any sense. They can’t control their urge for the chemicals.

generally people arent put away for that reason, rather for possession or distribution. making more addicts, or assisting others in that destructive behaviour.

Also people who commit murder usually aren’t stable people. I doubt that a murderer has control over himself at the time of his crime.

some are some arent. there are murderers who are cold blooded calculating schemers and there are soem who are egomaniacal rippers, its hard to tell the difference at first glance. some people kill in a rage, some people plan and scheme to murder for a goal.

It doesn’t make them bad people, they are just troubled.

im afraid it does many many of them are bad, some are troubled, mut i might liken it to the term “dysfunctional family” do you know anyone who doesnt have a dysfunctional family in some way? by the same way do you know anyone that isnt troubled in some way?

How can anyone be punished if they are not sane?

if they are insane they generally are not punished, thats the point of the insanity defense, they are separated from society for theirs and others protections. i dont think that insanity is a defense against G-d judgement though, he knows to the utmost degree, what someone is really thinking or feeling. i suppose He may judge one in accordance.

 

[johngh]

Also, it is conceivable (at least, I think) that someone may suffer urges (to certain substances, for example) beyond their control, in which case, God will not punish them for that (even if the civil law does). However, if he does have control of himself and gives into the substances anyway (knowing that it’s wrong) then he is liable for punishment. Usually, people have varying shades of control and awareness of their actions, so it’s not clear cut, but it’s true that the more awareness and control over your actions that you have, the more culpable you will be if you knowingly choose evil.

This might seem ridiculous, but you are maybe being even a little too lenient. It is stated in the Bible that God will never give you more than you can handle, meaning that substance addiction, or any other urge for that matter, is no excuse for sinning. He gives us the power and the grace to overcome those if we let Him help us.

 

[BigGofWi]

people place themselves in seperation from G-d.

no its not, we are born in a state of original sin, the stain from the fall of adam and eve

who doesnt know better? those who truly dont are insane, the extremely vast majority do know better and choose to act otherwise.

bird in the hand sysndrome, you know the old saying, a bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush? for instance, why do homosexuals perform disordered acts? they take pleasure from it and that pleasure is more important than their relationship with G-d.

because it offends G-d. we are naturally drawn to a number of hedonistic behaviours, we have a choice between them and fulfilling our obligation to G-d. its a choice.

generally people arent put away for that reason, rather for possession or distribution. making more addicts, or assisting others in that destructive behaviour.

some are some arent. there are murderers who are cold blooded calculating schemers and there are soem who are egomaniacal rippers, its hard to tell the difference at first glance. some people kill in a rage, some people plan and scheme to murder for a goal.

im afraid it does many many of them are bad, some are troubled, mut i might liken it to the term “dysfunctional family” do you know anyone who doesnt have a dysfunctional family in some way? by the same way do you know anyone that isnt troubled in some way?

if they are insane they generally are not punished, thats the point of the insanity defense, they are separated from society for theirs and others protections. i dont think that insanity is a defense against G-d judgement though, he knows to the utmost degree, what someone is really thinking or feeling. i suppose He may judge one in accordance.

How can there be original sin if it was first thought of by Thomas Aquinas and the fact that the Jews even admit that the book of Genesis isn’t exact or real? That’s a big part of my problem.

 

[MindOverMatter]

How can there be original sin if it was first thought of by Thomas Aquinas and the fact that the Jews even admit that the book of Genesis isn’t exact or real?.

Original sin was first thought of by Thomas Aquinas? Its seems to me that its in the book of genesis. You know…the fall.

 

[Areopagite]

This might seem ridiculous, but you are maybe being even a little too lenient. It is stated in the Bible that God will never give you more than you can handle, meaning that substance addiction, or any other urge for that matter, is no excuse for sinning. He gives us the power and the grace to overcome those if we let Him help us.

The phrase “God will never give you more than you can handle” is a good point.

But, first of all, do you believe people are always rational enough that their wills are always in operation? And that it’s always the case that actions done out of passion necessarily has the consent of the will?

Also, I think, with regard to “God will never give you more than you can handle” … I think that might mean that God will never allow an amount of suffering where it forces your will to choose evil. Now, this doesn’t mean that you won’t actually do evil. You may think … what? For example, you may never choose to take the drugs, but you still might do the drugs because the desire overwhelms your reason, against your will. Nonetheless, you don’t choose to do it, but you do it anyway. In that case, it is not a moral evil, but can still be called an evil (ontological evil, perhaps … because taking drugs is bad for you).

God, thus, will never give you more than you can your will can handle (but your will only comes into operation when your mind is clear enough), but it does not mean that God will never give you more than your mind can handle (in which case, your will will not be in operation … and morality thus does not apply).

Does that make any sense?

I made this up, just to let you know. I’ve never heard this articulated, but it’s something I vaguely assumed for awhile now. I may be completely wrong. But I don’t think I am. The consequences of not accepting my argument is very dire. For example, children below the age of reason would be able to sin. Usually, it’s a very widespread belief in the Church that baptized children below the age of reason who die are saints, despite the actions they committed that would usually be considered sinful for adults. The reason they are not culpable for those sins is not because they have perfect wills but because their mind is naturally too controlled by the emotions to process enough rational information that would enable the will to be active in a relevant way. Thus, if everyone is rational enough to sin, then children below the age of reason are also able to sin (but this is practically heresy, not to mention very clearly against common sense).

Now, I think it’s reasonable to say that people can get into a state of irrationality similar to and perhaps beyond that of a child’s state of mind. Examples are various insane people, drugged people, mentally handicapped people, etc. What do you think about this?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

How can there be original sin if it was first thought of by Thomas Aquinas and the fact that the Jews even admit that the book of Genesis isn’t exact or real? That’s a big part of my problem.

isnt original sin from Iraneous or Augustine as a doctrine? i think you may be mistaken. that aside, many doctrines are defined from Scripture, at later times as Christianity formed and dealt with the emergent heresies. the Jews dont all feel one way or the other about the Genesis account, there are as many kinds of Jews as Christians.

But does it matter? is there not a natural evil to men? as the smallest child, will grab anothers toy, or push down his sister. as it is in our nature to be proud and selfish, what does it matter how we define doctrine? who or what basis is used. we can see it empirically. people have evil natures. now you may say “why then would G-d punish us?” well, why do you punish a child for pushing down his sister, or stealing anothers toy? because we men are capable of reaching higher standards of behavior, one doesnt punish an animal for their behavior, at least not a rational person. one may provide a negative reinforcement to help control behavior., but one doesnt punish them. they arent really capable of exceeding their evolutionary programming. yet we are, we are capable of exceeding our merely physical nature and becoming so much more. we have Mother Theresas and Saint Francis’, every petty criminal fulfilling his animal nature is little more than an animal himself in many respects. every Saint is the ultimate expression of mans ability to transcend the petty physical nature and rise above and beyond that base existence to create that which is beautiful and immortal.

so which is better? to be a petty criminal, a lover of the flesh, one whose base nature controls them, or to strive to be a Saint, to refuse ones inordinate desires, to fight the flesh at every step, to reach beyond what you are, to the beautiful, immortal being you can be?

 

[Kasey1]

C. S. Lewis has an interesting position on this, elaborated in his book The Great Divorce. Hell is a just a bleak, dreary place outside of God’s presence, where people spend their afterlife without purpose, just like atheists are supposed to do here on earth. People in Hell can choose to leave to go to Heaven at any time, but they have to accept Heaven on God’s terms. People who are addicted to some sin need to choose between continuing in their sin vs. abandoning their sin in favor of being with God. Thus, the people who remain in Hell are making a continual choice to live apart from God.

Good point!

 

[Michael007]

BigGofWi,

I get the impression that you do not know who God is. That you have not truly read the Bible and probably have not even glanced at the Old Testament. If you only read the New Testament you have this problem. Because in the New Testament you hear that God loves you which is true. But to understand God you HAVE to read the Old Testament. You will read that He destroyed two cities Sodom and Gamorra. That he wiped the world clean to start over in the Flood. That he almost destroyed Egypt through Moses. That he commanded Joshua to commit what we would call genocide. What type of god would do these things? A god that lives in heaven and not on earth. An eternal entity that knows our souls are eternal and what happens to our physical bodies (death) isn’t that big of a deal. The destination is the big deal.

In light of this it is easier to understand a concept of Hell. In creation there is an opposite for everything. If there is a heaven there has to be a hell. For good there is bad. For people living under the laws there are people who live with lawlessness. We can’t have heaven without hell.

When Adam and Eve broke the only law in the garden peoples lives where changed. Notice that before the apple they didn’t know they were nakid. Afterwords they noticed it.
There appear to be a lot of issues about the Bible that you do not understand. As Christians we are called to study these things. Do you have children? What use are you as a parent if you do not know these things? What can you teach them if you are ignorant of the Truth? Do you teach them things in error because you are ignorant of God? Jesus talked about that. He said it would be better for that person to be thrown in the ocean with a weight on them.

You need to read the Old Testament and figure out who God is. And then you should read the New Testament and join the two.

Jesus said “What is the use of calling me 'Lord, lord”, and not doing what I say?" If you are ignorant of who God is and of heaven and hell, how can you call Jesus “Lord” and how can you do what he says?

 

[Michael007]

BigGofW wrote:,

"Well I don’t believe in bad people, only misguided people. I also do not believe in a prison system, correctional systems work much better with higher success rates. I still dont get why God has to punish people while they are naturally flawed to begin with. "

Misguided? How do you explain Hitler, Stalin, and Mao? Together they killed over 130 million people. Are they misguided?

Punishment: Are we punishing the murderer or are they punishing themselves through their actions? Doe the person going to hell get punished by God or are they punishing themselves through actions they know were wrong? Another point. Did they repent?
Repenting can lead to Purgatory which cleans the person before they get into heaven.

Gods punishment: Think of life here as a training ground for the worthy. God gives us specific rules for getting into heaven. One of which is believing in Him. If a person like you doesn’t believe in God or heaven how can you get in? You have broken the First Commandment which is to have only one god and that is Him. Having no god is the same as having another.

Now in your situation. What if you die now without believing in God and repenting for your sins? Do you think you should get into heaven because you were “good”? It doesn’t work that way. Even followers of God are not guarranteed entry into heaven. As this happens you go before Peter who puts you in line to go to hell. Ask yourself this: “Is God punishing you?” Or have you allowed yourself to be punished through your own actions?

The information is out there. You can continue to read books that lead you into Athiesm. Or you can study the other side and then decide which is true. If it were me I would want to study the other side to make sure I’m right. Because if your right, life is meaningless. We live and die and that is it. To the Christian the meaning of life is to worship God and to hopefully go to heaven. We have something to work for. The athiest has nothing to live for. No goal. Just do your own thing, die, and you are put into oblivian.

Are you really willing to take the chance of going to hell? Are you so sure you are right?

That choice is yours to make. And God will not punish you for your decision. In your rebellion from Him do you condemn yourself. Just like the murderer condemns themselves through their actions and are punished. You also need to read more about good and evil. From your statements you do not believe in either. It will help you to learn the truth about all of these things. Or at least to study the other side to better undestand it. You risk much

 

[Michael007]

The phrase “God will never give you more than you can handle” is a good point.

But, first of all, do you believe people are always rational enough that their wills are always in operation? And that it’s always the case that actions done out of passion necessarily has the consent of the will?

---

I work for the Disability Determination Bureau and see mental cases a lot. And I’ve just thought about this topic today. In the news there is a student who killed another. He is a lab tech with what apears to be OCD. He and the victim worked with lab rats and he had a fetish for keeping the cages clean. He may or may not have been rational when he killed her.

My thought is this. At some point there is a breaking point. It doesn’t just happen. There comes a point where you have a thought and you can either embrace that thought or you can fight it. You can feel anger. And in that anger you can either let it go or you can embrace it and let it lead you.

The person who is insane and kills had a point where they could have sought help. Where they could have better fought this urge to kill. Instead they chose to feed their insanity instead of seeking help.

In light of this I do not believe in the insanity defense anymore. They allowed themselves to get to that point.

There is an old Indian story of the white and black wolves. Each of us has both of these living inside us. The black wolf whispers things to get us to do evil deeds and to self destruct. It wants to hurt us. And the white wolf whispers good things and wants to help us. And there is a battle being waged inside us between these two. The boy in the story asks “Which one wins?” His father answers, “The one you feed the most.”

 

[Lorrie]

they take pleasure from it and that pleasure is more important than their relationship with G-d.

Just wondering why you spell God “G-d”? Is it an OCD thing? It can’t be that you have a problem with an “o”, you used several of those.

 

[ilovekittens]

no its not, we are born in a state of original sin, the stain from the fall of adam and eve

What does this really mean? If we consider children sinful at birth, then should they die in that state, they should be sent to hell to suffer eternally, right? Obviously, that makes no sense - I would not worship a God who would make children suffer - so the Church has made up places like Purgatory and Limbo to get around the absurdity of a newborn infant or a 5 year-old child being sent to eternal punishment. If they really aren’t sent to hell, then it seems that original sin isn’t really a sin, or at least a sin that they can’t be held responsible for (thus, not really a sin).

 

[Areopagite]

Areopagite;5718135:

I work for the Disability Determination Bureau and see mental cases a lot. And I’ve just thought about this topic today. In the news there is a student who killed another. He is a lab tech with what apears to be OCD. He and the victim worked with lab rats and he had a fetish for keeping the cages clean. He may or may not have been rational when he killed her.

My thought is this. At some point there is a breaking point. It doesn’t just happen. There comes a point where you have a thought and you can either embrace that thought or you can fight it. You can feel anger. And in that anger you can either let it go or you can embrace it and let it lead you.

The person who is insane and kills had a point where they could have sought help. Where they could have better fought this urge to kill. Instead they chose to feed their insanity instead of seeking help.

In light of this I do not believe in the insanity defense anymore. They allowed themselves to get to that point.

There is an old Indian story of the white and black wolves. Each of us has both of these living inside us. The black wolf whispers things to get us to do evil deeds and to self destruct. It wants to hurt us. And the white wolf whispers good things and wants to help us. And there is a battle being waged inside us between these two. The boy in the story asks “Which one wins?” His father answers, “The one you feed the most.”

I’m not denying that some insane and mentally handicapped people are able to think clearly enough to be responsible for their actions. But, do you have proof that EVERYONE is able to choose to lose control or not, and that it is never the case that people lose control despite how much the try not to?

If so, then the conclusion is that children below the age of reason are able to commit sin, but this seems contrary to Church doctrine. Is this what you’re saying though?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Just wondering why you spell God “G-d”? Is it an OCD thing? It can’t be that you have a problem with an “o”, you used several of those.

respect for the Holy Name.

 

[Lorrie]

respect for the Holy Name.

What do you think of people who type GOD? Are they being disrespectful??

 

[warpspeedpetey]

What does this really mean? If we consider children sinful at birth, then should they die in that state, they should be sent to hell to suffer eternally, right? Obviously, that makes no sense - I would not worship a God who would make children suffer - so the Church has made up places like Purgatory and Limbo to get around the absurdity of a newborn infant or a 5 year-old child being sent to eternal punishment. If they really aren’t sent to hell, then it seems that original sin isn’t really a sin, or at least a sin that they can’t be held responsible for (thus, not really a sin).

why does that make no sense? because we think that despite original sin the child is really innocent? or it is our common notion that fairness entails personal responsibility for an act? i would suggest that the child is not innocent, original sin marks him despite what we might think is fair. why should a kingship be hereditary, but not a fallen nature? is it any more fair that one can inhereit good things than bad things? some inherit athletic ability or intelligence, some inherit a propensity to cancer, are these things unfair? of course not, we are all given a cross to bear. by the same token we inherit a fallen nature.

now G-d is perfect. perfectly clean, He abhors sin. why then should He accept into His presence that which is unclean? what if you had spotlessly white carpet in your house, and a dog with muddy paws wanted to come in, would you let it? of course not. what if it were a puppy, the cutest little puppy you had ever seen, would you let that beautiful little pup on your perfectly, spotlessly white carpet, with muddy feet? of course not.

so while we maybe concerned with what our ideas of fair play are. they do not and cannot take into account the greater ideas, the perfect ideas of G-d.

i wont pretend to entirely understand the issue, but i dont think our notions have much to do with G-ds reality.

but i am more concerned with this

I would not worship a God who would make children suffer

how do we expect an almighty perfect G-d to fit our ideas of right and wrong? to be accountable to us? neither of us know the depths of the perfections of G-d. maybe we should trust the almighty perfect G-d to do what is best. our flawed notions of right and wrong are little more than that original fall when eve sought to know good and evil, because lucifer lied to her ans said it would make her like a god. it didnt, all that pride managed to do was to bring death and suffering into the world.