My problem with the concept of hell

[warpspeedpetey]

What do you think of people who type GOD? Are they being disrespectful??

i hadnt really thought about it. why are you thinking about it?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

What do you think of people who type GOD? Are they being disrespectful??

yes, i think its disrespectful.

 

[BigGofWi]

Original sin was first thought of by Thomas Aquinas? Its seems to me that its in the book of genesis. You know…the fall.

The Jews say that it isn’t a factual book. It was written during the exile of Babylon.

 

[BigGofWi]

isnt original sin from Iraneous or Augustine as a doctrine? i think you may be mistaken. that aside, many doctrines are defined from Scripture, at later times as Christianity formed and dealt with the emergent heresies. the Jews dont all feel one way or the other about the Genesis account, there are as many kinds of Jews as Christians.

But does it matter? is there not a natural evil to men? as the smallest child, will grab anothers toy, or push down his sister. as it is in our nature to be proud and selfish, what does it matter how we define doctrine? who or what basis is used. we can see it empirically. people have evil natures. now you may say “why then would G-d punish us?” well, why do you punish a child for pushing down his sister, or stealing anothers toy? because we men are capable of reaching higher standards of behavior, one doesnt punish an animal for their behavior, at least not a rational person. one may provide a negative reinforcement to help control behavior., but one doesnt punish them. they arent really capable of exceeding their evolutionary programming. yet we are, we are capable of exceeding our merely physical nature and becoming so much more. we have Mother Theresas and Saint Francis’, every petty criminal fulfilling his animal nature is little more than an animal himself in many respects. every Saint is the ultimate expression of mans ability to transcend the petty physical nature and rise above and beyond that base existence to create that which is beautiful and immortal.

so which is better? to be a petty criminal, a lover of the flesh, one whose base nature controls them, or to strive to be a Saint, to refuse ones inordinate desires, to fight the flesh at every step, to reach beyond what you are, to the beautiful, immortal being you can be?

I see all violent acts as instinctual. Stealing a toy is a need for dominance in an underdeveloped conscience.

That’s just my opinion.

I just can’t see any person as bad.

 

[BigGofWi]

Misguided? How do you explain Hitler, Stalin, and Mao? Together they killed over 130 million people. Are they misguided?

The information is out there. You can continue to read books that lead you into Athiesm. Or you can study the other side and then decide which is true. If it were me I would want to study the other side to make sure I’m right. Because if your right, life is meaningless. We live and die and that is it. To the Christian the meaning of life is to worship God and to hopefully go to heaven. We have something to work for. The athiest has nothing to live for. No goal. Just do your own thing, die, and you are put into oblivian.

I do believe that they were misguided, yes. If Hitler became an artist instead of the Furher I don’t think the hatred would’ve been seen.

Also, I study Christianity. I can’t come around to believing it though. It is too farfetched for me. I have never once felt God growing up in Catholic school.

I’m not turning away from anything either. I just don’t believe. What would you prefer, me to make believe that there is a God while thinking to myself that there isn’t, or admitting it straight that I don’t believe but continue to search for the truth in life.?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I see all violent acts as instinctual. Stealing a toy is a need for dominance in an underdeveloped conscience.

That’s just my opinion.

I just can’t see any person as bad.

do you have any evidence to support that? i know a great many bad people, and i havent noticed them operating instinctually.

 

[BigGofWi]

BigGofWi,

I get the impression that you do not know who God is. That you have not truly read the Bible and probably have not even glanced at the Old Testament. If you only read the New Testament you have this problem. Because in the New Testament you hear that God loves you which is true. But to understand God you HAVE to read the Old Testament. You will read that He destroyed two cities Sodom and Gamorra. That he wiped the world clean to start over in the Flood. That he almost destroyed Egypt through Moses. That he commanded Joshua to commit what we would call genocide. What type of god would do these things? A god that lives in heaven and not on earth. An eternal entity that knows our souls are eternal and what happens to our physical bodies (death) isn’t that big of a deal. The destination is the big deal.

In light of this it is easier to understand a concept of Hell. In creation there is an opposite for everything. If there is a heaven there has to be a hell. For good there is bad. For people living under the laws there are people who live with lawlessness. We can’t have heaven without hell.

When Adam and Eve broke the only law in the garden peoples lives where changed. Notice that before the apple they didn’t know they were nakid. Afterwords they noticed it.
There appear to be a lot of issues about the Bible that you do not understand. As Christians we are called to study these things. Do you have children? What use are you as a parent if you do not know these things? What can you teach them if you are ignorant of the Truth? Do you teach them things in error because you are ignorant of God? Jesus talked about that. He said it would be better for that person to be thrown in the ocean with a weight on them.

You need to read the Old Testament and figure out who God is. And then you should read the New Testament and join the two.

Jesus said “What is the use of calling me 'Lord, lord”, and not doing what I say?" If you are ignorant of who God is and of heaven and hell, how can you call Jesus “Lord” and how can you do what he says?

You are in fact wrong. I have been through the Bible many time. Catholic school with Catholic upbrining but I have always been curious. That eventually lead me to atheism. I’m not about to believe a book written by people who thought the earth was flat.

Now when you say that you don’t think I know who God is I’m going to answer that by saying, “do you?”. The answer of that questiong is no. There is no possible way you do. That is like going on Wikipedia, reading the bio of Sammy Sosa, and then proceeding to say that you know him. You may know various facts and attributes of him but do you really KNOW him? At the end of they day you know him as well as I do, they guy who didn’t even read the bio.

Now, if you believe those stories, do you also believe the one where Ibraaim convinced God to not destroy a city because there was one good person in it when God originally going to do so? A mere man telling an almighty God otherwise? How about the fact that Methusalah lived almost 1000 years? Or the fact that there were two of every type of animal within the city limits of Baghdad (Garden of Eden)? That just doesn’t add up to me.

If I sounded like I was attacking you I am sorry, but I am looking for the answers.

 

[BigGofWi]

do you have any evidence to support that? i know a great many bad people, and i havent noticed them operating instinctually.

Mine comes from Freud.

Do you have proof of original sin outside of a book?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Mine comes from Freud.

Do you have proof of original sin outside of a book?

mine comes from practical experience. as to original sin, yes. its very common to see, from the grabby selfishness of children to the calculated murder of an old man for inheritance.

 

[BigGofWi]

mine comes from practical experience. as to original sin, yes. its very common to see, from the grabby selfishness of children to the calculated murder of an old man for inheritance.

And you are positve that that isn’t instinctual? If I were to read of those two events and didn’t know anything about Abrahamic Tradition, I wouldn’t jump the gun and say that’s because the first two people ate some fruit off of a tree because a snake told them so. In my experience the simplest answer is usually the true one.

 

[James_S_Saint]

I have always had problems wondering why any god would place a person into eternal damnation. It is said that at the beginning of life we are innocent, what changes that? How can it be possible for an almighty god to punish people who honestly do not know any better? If everyone had a sound concept of hell why would anyone sin? If we are naturally drawn to sin how can we be punished for it? It is like putting a prisoner away for being addicted to a substance. It just doesn’t make any sense. They can’t control their urge for the chemicals. Also people who commit murder usually aren’t stable people. I doubt that a murderer has control over himself at the time of his crime. It doesn’t make them bad people, they are just troubled. How can anyone be punished if they are not sane?

The problem you have with this issue is directly due to not really understanding “soul”, “Hell”, and “eternity”.

Unfortunately, no one seems to be helping you out of that boat. I’m a little curious and dismayed that they don’t.

From my understanding of God, soul, Hell, and eternity, I have to tell you that God has no plans for any conscious soul capable of learning to spend an eternity in punishment. Such a God would be more than a little irrational. But having said that, I must distinguish angels, demons, and devils from that list of “conscious souls” capable of being punished. Such entities merely do what they do, much like a virus or gravity, they sense no punishment, nor can they learn.

Eternity reflects a state of inability to learn or change. What would be the point of having conscious awareness if no learning could take place? And if there is no conscious awareness, then there could be no punishment.

But regardless of any Scripture, I can tell you that those who cannot find Heaven for whatever reason or justification, will indeed eternally (continually) suffer until they do find it by whatever cause.

 

[BigGofWi]

The problem you have with this issue is directly due to not really understanding “soul”, “Hell”, and “eternity”.

Unfortunately, no one seems to be helping you out of that boat. I’m a little curious and dismayed that they don’t.

From my understanding of God, soul, Hell, and eternity, I have to tell you that God has no plans for any conscious soul capable of learning to spend an eternity in punishment. Such a God would be more than a little irrational. But having said that, I must distinguish angels, demons, and devils from that list of “conscious souls” capable of being punished. Such entities merely do what they do, much like a virus or gravity, they sense no punishment, nor can they learn.

Eternity reflects a state of inability to learn or change. What would be the point of having conscious awareness if no learning could take place? And if there is no conscious awareness, then there could be no punishment.

But regardless of any Scripture, I can tell you that those who cannot find Heaven for whatever reason or justification, will indeed eternally (continually) suffer until they do find it by whatever cause.

You are right, I do not understand any of the above. So according to what you say, I could be in hell right now if I cannot learn? Your reasoning is a little shady. If you could elaborate a little farther, specifically in the “But regardless of any Scripture, I can tell you that those who cannot find Heaven for whatever reason or justification, will indeed eternally (continually) suffer until they do find it by whatever cause” part. It almost sounds as if, by your explaination, that heaven is a perception. And if that is the case that could mean that a happy person is in heaven while a clinically depressed person is in hell. At least that is what I get from that. What does finding heaven mean?

 

[Areopagite]

From my understanding of God, soul, Hell, and eternity, I have to tell you that God has no plans for any conscious soul capable of learning to spend an eternity in punishment. Such a God would be more than a little irrational. But having said that, I must distinguish angels, demons, and devils from that list of “conscious souls” capable of being punished.
Such entities merely do what they do, much like a virus or gravity, they sense no punishment, nor can they learn.

From what books of forgotten lore do you derive this stuff?

Eternity reflects a state of inability to learn or change. What would be the point of having conscious awareness if no learning could take place? And if there is no conscious awareness, then there could be no punishment.

I might be wrong but there are two kinds of eternity. One is timelessness and the other is unending time. The former does prohibit change for the thing in eternity, but the latter does not. I believe (though I may be wrong) the latter is the kind of eternity that shall be experienced in the afterlife. Some theologians may disagree, and if so, I wish to hear them.

But, anyway, hell is only for those who want it … those who don’t want eternal happiness. So, don’t worry, if you want eternal happiness … you’ll be fine. As for me, there are at least sometimes where I would prefer to rot in hell for all eternity … it took me awhile to realize this, after I tore away all the comfy lies I had told myself. And there are others too who are even proud about wanting to go to hell. It’s not like we’re forced there by anyone other than ourselves. The soul that has sin would rather go to hell than look God in the eye. And that’s the truth.

But regardless of any Scripture, I can tell you that those who cannot find Heaven for whatever reason or justification, will indeed eternally (continually) suffer until they do find it by whatever cause.

I’m not sure what you’re saying here. It seems devious though.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

And you are positve that that isn’t instinctual?

im positive, i have observed a great many acts of violence, and there is almost never an instinctual basis that i can see, its almost always an attempt to assert ones will on others.

If I were to read of those two events and didn’t know anything about Abrahamic Tradition, I wouldn’t jump the gun and say that’s because the first two people ate some fruit off of a tree because a snake told them so. In my experience the simplest answer is usually the true one.

no, i dont suppose you would, but i think im missing the point your trying to make.

 

[BigGofWi]

im positive, i have observed a great many acts of violence, and there is almost never an instinctual basis that i can see, its almost always an attempt to assert ones will on others.

no, i dont suppose you would, but i think im missing the point your trying to make.

What are some of these acts that you have witnessed? I do not know of an action that can’t be traced to something primal besides the need for spirituality.

What I mean is that the concept of original sin seems like an archaic way to expain how the world works, similar to how the Jews believed they lived in a dome with shutters to control the rain and the sun revolving around them.

 

[James_S_Saint]

delete… having Internet troubles

 

[James_S_Saint]

You are right, I do not understand any of the above. So according to what you say, I could be in hell right now if I cannot learn? Your reasoning is a little shady. If you could elaborate a little farther, specifically in the “But regardless of any Scripture, I can tell you that those who cannot find Heaven for whatever reason or justification, will indeed eternally (continually) suffer until they do find it by whatever cause” part. It almost sounds as if, by your explaination, that heaven is a perception. And if that is the case that could mean that a happy person is in heaven while a clinically depressed person is in hell. At least that is what I get from that. What does finding heaven mean?

The concept of Hell is a state of torment. Torment comes from wanting for something you can sense that you cannot obtain yet keep wanting it. This is the case of the addict who cannot get his fix.

Heaven is indeed at least an issue of perception in that if you do not perceive that you are in Heaven, then you certainly are not. But the concept far exceeds merely having a happy life. It also includes a happy society as a whole where being happy is not a difficult struggle.

But even more importantly, it involves the aspect of eternal continuance. This is where the “morals” come from. In order to maintain that happy state for all, certain real concerns must be properly addressed. This involves attention, understanding, and active work toward the maintenance of that state. While learning these things, faith must be maintained. But faith can be given (or taken away). This is another issue I have with how the world is currently functioning.

The divine Heaven is yet another issue. The divine involves principles that are in perfect harmony (real logic). In order for there to be a Heaven on Earth, as requested by Jesus and many Christians as well as others, the divine harmony must become the physical harmony. This is what was meant by Jesus being a physical representation of God and the Son thereof.

Jesus’ principles for behavior can indeed bring that Heaven to Earth and within every person. But for that to happen, his principles must be more clearly understood than people seem to be grasping.

This is the struggle of mankind. Every generation has the desire to improve, but they don’t clearly grasp exactly how to accomplish that and usually end up blindly insisting in the wrong direction. But this is to be expected if understanding is not provided. Faith alone is weak in comparison to real understanding.

Being faithful to Jesus’ principles would indeed bring all he promised. The problem is that to be so truly faithful, one must first truly understand to what principles he is being faithful. Being loyal and faithful to misconcepts creates the world you see around you. I find that Christianity seems to have lost something in this regard (as do non-Christians of every type).

Christianity is trying in the right fundamental direction. It just seems to need help. Its adversaries are not helping to obtain their own goal as they attack Christianity. They need to help correct misunderstandings, not get into ego battles for domination (IMHO).

 

[warpspeedpetey]

What are some of these acts that you have witnessed?

id rather not say. and im sure that you would rather not know. just take my word for it, ive seen it all.

I do not know of an action that can’t be traced to something primal besides the need for spirituality.

i guess it boils down to what you mean by primal, if you mean the basic desires, then i would agree, but not instinctual or necessitated by some naturalism. if you mean people commit criminal acts for reasons of desire, then sure, all actions are the result of desire in that light. but noit if you mean instinctual. there is nothing instinctual about a bernie madoff, a charles manson, or a jack the ripper. instinctual things would seem to be something that need be common. yet these activities are so rare in the grand scheme of things i have a hard time seeing them as an intrinsiclly instinctive action.

What I mean is that the concept of original sin seems like an archaic way to expain how the world works, similar to how the Jews believed they lived in a dome with shutters to control the rain and the sun revolving around them.

i see now. well, if we are to look for a reason for peoples innate tendencies to evil, i dont think that instinct carries much weight, for the reasons above. what other reason might there be? the doctrine of original sin speaks of a reason for peoples innate desire to do sinful things. if there were no G-d and morality were subjective, and then there were no sinful things. there wouldnt be a need to justify any reason to do anything other than ones desire to do them.

then again, if morality is subjective, then there is really no morality and those claiming that morality can only be vieweed in terms of violations of another individuals rights and desires are still setting a subjective foundation for morality in that i can see no reason for it to be immoral to do what ever i want to anyone. what should i care about their rights or desires? because it might happen to me? the golden rule? id be happy to take my chances. why do we need any morality at all? to prevent the weak from being victimized by the strong? how is that not subjective? in nature the weak die. that doesnt seem like a problem to me. nno objective morality, really means no morality at all.

 

[BigGofWi]

Warpspeedpetey

then again, if morality is subjective, then there is really no morality and those claiming that morality can only be vieweed in terms of violations of another individuals rights and desires are still setting a subjective foundation for morality in that i can see no reason for it to be immoral to do what ever i want to anyone. what should i care about their rights or desires? because it might happen to me? the golden rule? id be happy to take my chances. why do we need any morality at all? to prevent the weak from being victimized by the strong? how is that not subjective? in nature the weak die. that doesnt seem like a problem to me. nno objective morality, really means no morality at all.

I see where you are coming from. My views on the world tend to be completely objective.

I think that morality is also a humanistic characteristic. Buddhists tend to be the best about morals and they are an atheistic religion (most call it philisophical teaching). I guess I just don’t know what to believe any more. I tried the whole Christian thing and when I was sincerely trying to get help, I felt nothing. I honestly hope that you are right about the whole afterlife thing. If I’m right then there is nothing past this. Hell even sounds better than that.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I have always had problems wondering why any god would place a person into eternal damnation. It is said that at the beginning of life we are innocent, what changes that?

We are not. That is why Augustine’s notion that even unbaptised infants would be damned makes sense - they are conceived in inquity, and are born at enmity with God. They deserve Hell. Unfortunately the Church weakened this excellent doctrine, & has now abolished it entirely; which makes Baptism a needless because a pointless thing. Even worse, is the result that people have this idea that “at the beginning of life we are innocent”.​

How can it be possible for an almighty god to punish people who honestly do not know any better?

They do. That is the point - Hell is deserved; and the whole human race deserves damnation.​

If everyone had a sound concept of hell why would anyone sin?

Children misbehave - even though they know they will be severely punished for doing so. So with the rest of us.​

If we are naturally drawn to sin how can we be punished for it?

We are not. To sin, is unnatural - because we are damaged by original sin, we have a bias towards what is unnatural to us; somewhat as the baby of a woman on drugs is born an addict.​

It is like putting a prisoner away for being addicted to a substance. It just doesn’t make any sense. They can’t control their urge for the chemicals. Also people who commit murder usually aren’t stable people. I doubt that a murderer has control over himself at the time of his crime. It doesn’t make them bad people, they are just troubled.

They know enough - that’s why they are are criminally liable. I’m sure Hitler was “troubled” - but don’t tell that to an Auschwitz survivor. There are always excuses - the doctrine that we can be damned for our wickedness if we die unrepentant does us the great compliment of not treating us as mindless puppets. The alternatives are fatalism or radical relativism: but people complain of these too. People always complain. ​

How can anyone be punished if they are not sane?

I don’t understand why Hell is a problem for anyone. If any lesson is re-inforced by daily experience, again and again and again and again, it is surely the essential vileness of human nature. Man eat, drinks, sleeps, & dreams depravity and evil - Hell is far less than is deserved. No ?​

When people complain of the doctrine, they always leave something - & often many things - out: God’s Justice, God’s Hatred of sin, the sinfulness of sin, the liberty of man in choosing to sin, or other things.