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KingAlfred
Guest
In Christ, God has given us the means to seek salvation. When we choose not to do so, we must pay a price for such egregious sin.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
People had no electricity until over just 200 years ago. Are you going to condemn the Founding Fathers for not knowing of electricity, X-rays, penicillin, and so on ? If not - why condemn people longer ago for not knowing other facts about the world ? Maybe the FFs should be condemned - after all, many of them kept slaves.
And in 500 years’ time, we ourselves are probably going to look pretty ignorant. Make that 3,000 years from now, & we shall be as far in the distant past from the POV of our descendants as some of the Biblical authors are in our past. We think highly of ourselves only if we forget that weare generation among many others. Our remote ancestors were very up-to-date in their day. So we are not in position to ignore them nmerely because of their lack of geographical knowledge. Why is “[thinking] the earth [is] flat” so fatal to being taken seriously ? And what possible connection can it have, to whether or not there be a Hell for the impenitent wicked ?
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MindOverMatter
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I am not sure that Augustine would say this. Perhaps you can provide a link? To be born in to sin is to be born with the stain of Adam and Eves willful transgression. Original sin is “transmitted” to the seeds of Adam and Eve, not committed. In reality, nobody is worthy of heaven, no matter how many good works we do. God is perfect by nature of being and act, and thus everybody is at the mercy of God as far as i can understand it, including Adam and Eve, even before the fall. We have nothing that God has not given to us. Perfection is not something that can be earned. It is something that is given as a gift. The sacraments exists in order to maintain a sufficient and proper direction towards human salvation and virtue in so far as mans spiritual development is concerned; and insofar as these sacraments encourage virtue, they are surely meaningful and good. The sacraments are expressions of good simply because and only because they aid the spirit in its ascent towards God. But that doesn’t mean that God is bound to work through a specific set of sacramental parameters.
In specific cases, various individuals or groups may be given exception, since they do not have the same opportunity as those whom have full privileges and knowledge. It is evident when comparing angels and humans, that there are different degrees of responsibility. However, there may be different degrees of closeness to God, just like there are different degrees of hell; which may mean that not all people in heaven are equal in closeness, but are united in their salvation nevertheless. Or, if we consider the parable about Gods workers, it may even be the case that God will give the same to all people who are given a place in heaven. And as far as that is true, it seems reasonable to me to think that there are no babies or children in hell. The idea of God sending them there does not make any sense whatsoever. The churches view as i understood it was that unbaptized children went to a place called “limbo”; correct me if i am wrong. They now, if i am not mistaken, say that this was a “theological theory”, and that unbaptized children are to be left to the mercy of God.
Limbo is not hell, as far as i know. It is a place between heaven and hell.
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itinerant1
Guest
Actually, Augustine did assert something like that. The issue centered around the necessity of Baptism and the fact that all have incurred the guilt of Original Sin.
However, it was only theological speculation on Augustine’s part. The Church has for centuries wrestled with the issue of the unbaptized. Eventually it was thought that the unbaptized in the next life were happy in a state called Limbo, but they did not posses the Beatific Vision. This was still theological speculation. The latest theological thinking, during Pope John Paul’s reign, tends to allow for the full salvation, i.e. the Beatific Vision, to the unbaptized innocents. Personally, I believe this latest trend is a big step toward the truth of the matter. It is less legalistic in its thinking and trusts more in God’s love and compassion.
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warpspeedpetey
Guest
i can completely understand that feeling. sometimes im not sure what to believe even now. doubt is not easy. we all wish to be satisfied.
it would have been nice to feel something, wouldnt it? some sign that G-d is paying attention. some sign that our faith is justified. .
i hope i am right too.
the universe doesnt make any sense withoout G-d. but every man has to walk his own path to G-d. i hope to see you on the other side, good luck.
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BigGofWi
Guest
Thanks. It’s hard to be holy when you don’t know what’s right anymore. I hope I see you too
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Jason_1977
Guest
I would say one thing that changes that is the ability to make a decision & which decisions get made.
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Jason_1977
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one problem I have with hell is that they probably have no beer, I wouldn’t be able to watch football on sundays or monday nights, I would never get to watch the sox play the yanks, and there’s probably no pizza delivery, what’s worse, I’d be surrounded by people asking me if I’m saved, LOL!!!
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warpspeedpetey
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Jason_1977
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The sad thing is it’s probably true. LOL. Ya hafta maintain a sense of humor in all this. If you take life too seriously, you wont make it out alive!
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Oreoracle
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And apparently not taking life too seriously will also increase your chances of living in an eternal paradise after death.
Sorry, I couldn’t help myself.
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rwillenborg
Guest
You might want to get your parents’ money back from those nuns.
The writers of the Bible, definitely the NT, and at least parts of the OT, were NOT written by people who thought the earth was flat.
In Isaiah 40:22 it says God sits on the circle of the earth, and the word used there means circle, circuit, or compass, suggesting a sphere rather than a flat object.
The same word for circle is used in Proverbs 8:27 in reference to the creation of the world.
Oh yeah, and even OUTSIDE of the Bible people weren’t thinking the Earth was flat, at least not when NT was written.
In the sixth century B.C., Pythagoras suggested a spherical earth Eratosthenes of Alexandria (270-190s B.C.) calculated the circumference of the earth. That the earth was round wasn’t exactly news by the time Christ came around.
Come to think of it, actually, even if they DID think the world was flat, why would that matter? The ancient Mesopotamians invented the wheel, the saw, the lever, and pulley, the sundial, irrigation and the sailboat.
And THEY thought the world was flat. Does that mean their wheels, saws, level, pulleys, sundials, irrigation systems, and sailboats were all wrong, too?
Goodness I hope not. Or else I won’t be able to go sailing, driving, or irrigating tomorrow!
One final thought…
Maybe you’ve got good reasons for not believing the Bible, but that ‘the writers thought the earth was flat’ certainly isn’t one of them.
I wish you the best on your journey. God bless.
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rwillenborg
Guest
Oh! And I had a response to your original question too.
Well, my response is actually a question.
I don’t understand the problem of not understanding the problem of hell.
So, here’s a real life scenario.
I have a friend. We’ll call him Todd because that’s his name. He had a wife. She was WAY, and I mean WAY smarter, funnier, hotter, and sweeter than he deserved. We all wondered why she loved him. We assumed she was just drunk all the time, or on the lam from the cops and needed a name change fast, or was legally blind. Either way, we all toasted the happy couple at their wedding and it was bliss.
Then, not long after, Todd got to thinking. He got to thinking he could do BETTER than this smart, funny, hot, sweet woman he married. So he kicked her out of the house so he could party more.
And you know what?
He was miserable. Wretchedly, desperately, pathetically miserable. He kicked HER out of the house, and HE was miserable. Here’s where it gets even MORE pathetic. She would go back to him, in an instant, if he would just ask her. But he won’t ask her. Because that would be ‘weak’ (his words). So, he continues to live a miserable, lonely life without his lovely, charming wife.
So, is it HER fault that he kicked her out and now he’s unhappy? Of course not. This is a mess all his own doing. Likewise, if you kick God out of your life, and it turns out you don’t like the consequences of that, well, I don’t see how that’s God’s fault.
Likewise, he KNEW he would be miserable without her. He KNEW she was the best thing he ever had, but he got this crazy idea in his brain that this marriage was ‘tying him down’, ‘restricting him’, when really, it released him from the slavish world he was living in and allowed him to be his true self.
But old chains are still hard to break.
And he thought he should go back to that life. That carefree, lonely, miserable life.
So, in response to your other question - what kind of a person would reject what they knew was good for them? Well, Todd, obviously, for one. And plenty others, too. I’m not surprised when people do self-destructive things, when their pride gets so hungry that it ends up eating them alive, when people make deliberate decisions that they know they will regret. I’m not surprised even a little. I do it for goodness sake! So, would it really surprise you if someone pushed away the best thing they ever had? Is it SO unlike our human nature to do such a thing?
I don’t think so.
Same as before - God bless, and best wishes on your journey.
Well, my response is actually a question.
I don’t understand the problem of not understanding the problem of hell.
So, here’s a real life scenario.
I have a friend. We’ll call him Todd because that’s his name. He had a wife. She was WAY, and I mean WAY smarter, funnier, hotter, and sweeter than he deserved. We all wondered why she loved him. We assumed she was just drunk all the time, or on the lam from the cops and needed a name change fast, or was legally blind. Either way, we all toasted the happy couple at their wedding and it was bliss.
Then, not long after, Todd got to thinking. He got to thinking he could do BETTER than this smart, funny, hot, sweet woman he married. So he kicked her out of the house so he could party more.
And you know what?
He was miserable. Wretchedly, desperately, pathetically miserable. He kicked HER out of the house, and HE was miserable. Here’s where it gets even MORE pathetic. She would go back to him, in an instant, if he would just ask her. But he won’t ask her. Because that would be ‘weak’ (his words). So, he continues to live a miserable, lonely life without his lovely, charming wife.
So, is it HER fault that he kicked her out and now he’s unhappy? Of course not. This is a mess all his own doing. Likewise, if you kick God out of your life, and it turns out you don’t like the consequences of that, well, I don’t see how that’s God’s fault.
Likewise, he KNEW he would be miserable without her. He KNEW she was the best thing he ever had, but he got this crazy idea in his brain that this marriage was ‘tying him down’, ‘restricting him’, when really, it released him from the slavish world he was living in and allowed him to be his true self.
But old chains are still hard to break.
And he thought he should go back to that life. That carefree, lonely, miserable life.
So, in response to your other question - what kind of a person would reject what they knew was good for them? Well, Todd, obviously, for one. And plenty others, too. I’m not surprised when people do self-destructive things, when their pride gets so hungry that it ends up eating them alive, when people make deliberate decisions that they know they will regret. I’m not surprised even a little. I do it for goodness sake! So, would it really surprise you if someone pushed away the best thing they ever had? Is it SO unlike our human nature to do such a thing?
I don’t think so.
Same as before - God bless, and best wishes on your journey.
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tonyrey
Guest
Many a true word is spoken in jest! You happen to be right. The greatest saints had a sense of humour. It is possible to become too scrupulous, puritannical… and eventually proud and self-righteous - which is the high road to hell.And apparently not taking life too seriously will also increase your chances of living in an eternal paradise after death.
Sorry, I couldn’t help myself.
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Jason_1977
Guest
You know what hell is folks? It’s Andy Gibb…singing “Shadow Dancing” for EONS and EONS!!!" ~Dennis Leary LOL!!!
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BigGofWi
Guest
Actually most people believed that the earth was flat. There is a huge difference in the words circle and sphere. One has form and the other is just a shape. That’s why Columbus’s journey was so looked down upon at the time. They thought he would just fall off the edge.
When I say that they thought the world was flat, I am more making a reference to how their knowledge of the universe was so little that it’s hard to take them seriously when they talk about much much more important things like where I’m gonna to spend eternity.
In reference of your anecdote. I don’t see someone being punished for unknowingly destroying themselves. It almost reminds me of Oedipus.
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rwillenborg
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Also false. Here’s a snippet from Wiki:
The false belief that medieval Christianity believed in a flat earth has been referred to as The Myth of the Flat Earth.[1] In 1945, it was listed by the Historical Association (of Britain) as the second of 20 in a pamphlet on common errors in history.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth
People at the time thought his effort to get to china would fail because china was too far away. And lookie there, they were right.
Here’s another link. This one, too, explains that PRE-Christ thinking was that the earth was a sphere. The debate then, was how big.
europeanhistory.about.com/od/historicalmyths/a/histmyths7.htm
Isaac Newton didn’t know anything about DNA. Do you take his work seriously?
And I’m afraid you lost me on Oedipus. Oedipus killed his father and married his mother. I fail to see the connection.
The parallel I was trying to make was that, when someone pushes away a person who loves them, and then feels the loss of that love (which is what Hell is, btw, the complete absence of love) it is not as a punishment from the scorned lover. It is as a free will, albeit bad, choice of their own doing.
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BigGofWi
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You aren’t getting my point. IT’S NOT ABOUT IT BEING FLAT. If you want to argue about the world being flat or sphere I am not going to take part in it. It truly does not matter nor do I care. It was to make a point. You know what point I was making yet you won’t leave it alone.Also false. Here’s a snippet from Wiki:
The false belief that medieval Christianity believed in a flat earth has been referred to as The Myth of the Flat Earth.[1] In 1945, it was listed by the Historical Association (of Britain) as the second of 20 in a pamphlet on common errors in history.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth
People at the time thought his effort to get to china would fail because china was too far away. And lookie there, they were right.
Here’s another link. This one, too, explains that PRE-Christ thinking was that the earth was a sphere. The debate then, was how big.
europeanhistory.about.com/od/historicalmyths/a/histmyths7.htm
Isaac Newton didn’t know anything about DNA. Do you take his work seriously?
And I’m afraid you lost me on Oedipus. Oedipus killed his father and married his mother. I fail to see the connection.
The parallel I was trying to make was that, when someone pushes away a person who loves them, and then feels the loss of that love (which is what Hell is, btw, the complete absence of love) it is not as a punishment from the scorned lover. It is as a free will, albeit bad, choice of their own doing.
Also I wouldn’t expect Newton to know anything about biology. He was a physicist.
Oedipus only made one mistake and destroyed his life because of it
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MikiBee
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My problem with this is God is greater than a human being. His compassion is greater. It has to be. If the wife would take back her husband in an instant, why would not God? I realize you said the guy is too proud to take back the wife, and that there are some people who are too proud to turn back to God-- but we live in a finite world. Who is to say that the man will come to his senses eventually (aided by a little grace and humility… or just different life circumstances that help him to “see the light?” Why does God subject a mere man, that He created knowing full well men’s limitations and sinful nature, to hell for ALL ETERNITY? If a human can wait for a loved one all their life, why does God only give us our lifespan on earth to turn back to Him? Does God not have more patience than a human?
If my kids decided they didn’t love me anymore and never wanted anything to do with me any more, I would not put a time table on them for their return before I would shut them out of my life completely. If I had the power to live forever, I would accept them back at ANY point with open arms. The problem is, humans live approximately 80 years. So God, in essence, is putting a time table on us to come to Him. And some people get far, far less time here–
Eternity of damnation is an incomprehensible fate for a mere 80 or so years.
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tonyrey
Guest
A person chooses to reject God and exist independently without being compelled by God to do so.
There is no timetable. We never lose our free will…
It is not incomprehensible that we can choose to have absolute power over ourselves and our own destiny for all eternity. In this world we see many examples of the suffering caused by the lust for power by those obsessed with themselves and their desires. You underestimate the horrific reality of evil…
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