My problem with the idea of the trinity

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1ke:
Consubstantial with the Father…
 
Wesrock said:
God is one. But the Father is not the Son who is not the Holy Spirit. The Father was not crucified. The Holy Spirit was not crucified. Only the Son was crucified. That is dogma.
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So God the Father is separate from the Son? How does that happen when Jesus is Consubstantial with the Father?
 
Wesrock said:
Correct. But not the Father.
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When did I say Jesus was the Father? I said they are made of the same ‘stuff’. Consubstantial…They are not separate. God the Father cannot separate Himself from Jesus because they are One in God.
 
Karen107 said:
I disagree. We believe in ONE God with 3 manifestations, the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. I believe the Father was crucified because there is no separation from the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Yes God came down from heaven and became man who died for our sins. Then it is God who knows our suffering because He suffered also. If you say God is love, Jesus is love and the Holy Spirit is love…
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This is what confuses me
 
Karen107 said:
So God the Father is separate from the Son? How does that happen when Jesus is Consubstantial with the Father?
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Well, the Father is not the Son. I’m wary of using the word separate. It makes your mind want to explode, right? But that is the Trinitarian dogma. The Son is the perfect image of the Father. Our eastern brethren are wary of speaking of God the Father as being a physical or metaphysical substance, as He has no origin and is coeternal and infinite. The Son is also coeternal and infinite, but He is begotten from all eternity by the Father. God the Father is the origin and source of the Trinity.
 
Jesus can rather be said to not “question” the Father on the Cross but was quoting the opening lines of a psalm…one that ends with triumph…(a practice at the time even…using the first lines to refer to the whole).

Jesus is the Son of God - indeed consubstantial with the Father - but in his incarnation, in his human nature he was also truly man (so will pray humanly to his Father…etc).
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
This is what confuses me
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Okay Wesrock didn’t like my H2O analogy so I will use the analogy of the Shamrock. Imagine the three persons of God have different leaves, but are all part of the Shamrock so they are in communion with each other. It is through Jesus though that we come in communion with the whole of God (the Shamrock).

Is that better Wesrock??lol
 
Karen107 said:
This is what I believe:

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/
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The main issue is that you stated the Father was crucified. That was (and is) a big no-no for the Church. If you claim this, then there is a difference between your understanding and the Trinitarian understanding taught by the Church. I don’t think it will personally affect a lay Christian if they have an imperfect understanding, but given that this is the apologetics forum, I think it’s important to clarify this.
 
Bookcat said:
Jesus can rather be said to not “question” the Father on the Cross but was quoting the opening lines of a psalm…one that ends with triumph…(a practice at the time even…using the first lines to refer to the whole).

Jesus is the Son of God - indeed consubstantial with the Father - but in his incarnation, in his human nature he was also truly man (so will pray humanly to his Father…etc).
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Jesus was never not the Son of God. So indeed God the Father indeed was with Jesus when He died. That’s how the Father knows what it is to suffer. God the Father was never separate from Jesus.
 
Karen107 said:
I disagree. We believe in ONE God with 3 manifestations, the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. I believe the Father was crucified because there is no separation from the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Yes God came down from heaven and became man who died for our sins. Then it is God who knows our suffering because He suffered also. If you say God is love, Jesus is love and the Holy Spirit is love…
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God the Father is Spirit.

Impossible to crucify spirit on a wooden cross.

So respectfully, it’s incorrect to say the Father was crucified.

Correct to say that a divine person was crucified in Christ.

In fact, many claim that Jesus was momentarily separated from the Father on the cross, or that the Father turned his back to him(in a manner of speaking) Because Jesus said “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

All though I don’t really subscribe to that line of reasoning, it is a interesting take.
 
All analogies fall flat eventually, but they can be useful. The one that I came up with that I like the best is a braid. 3 strands of hair. left strand, middle strand, right strand. One braid, One substance, 3 strands.

There is only One God. There are 3 Persons. Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The Father is not the Son, nor the Spirit. The Son is neither the Father, nor the Spirit. The Spirit is not the Son, nor the Father.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
God the Father is Spirit.

Impossible to crucify spirit on a wooden cross.

So respectfully, it’s incorrect to say the Father was crucified.

Correct to say that a divine person was crucified in Christ.

In fact, many claim that Jesus was momentarily separated from the Father on the cross, or that the Father turned his back to him(in a manner of speaking) Because Jesus said “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

All though I don’t really subscribe to that line of reasoning, it is a interesting take.
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Gods will WAS in Jesus when He said that and Jesus the Son of Man paid attention to that. Why do you think we hear about Jesus praying to the Father? Because others saw Jesus praying to the Father and Jesus showed them the way to Pray…
 
Lenten_ashes said:
God the Father is Spirit.

Impossible to crucify spirit on a wooden cross.

So respectfully, it’s incorrect to say the Father was crucified.

Correct to say that a divine person was crucified in Christ.

In fact, many claim that Jesus was momentarily separated from the Father on the cross, or that the Father turned his back to him(in a manner of speaking) Because Jesus said “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

All though I don’t really subscribe to that line of reasoning, it is a interesting take.
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CCC 255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91
 
Karen107 said:
CCC 255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91
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Yes.

And it was the Son who was crucified - not the Father.
 
Bookcat said:
Correct. God the Son - one person of the Holy Trinity - incarnated and born of Mary - he was crucified.
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The Holy Spirit is not separate from Jesus so was there at the crucifixion. That is at the core of our belief… We crucified ‘God’. But God could never die…

CCC 255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91
 
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