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Karen107
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God the Father and God the Son are One… tell me how we did not crucify God?Yes God the Son - one of the Holy Trinity.
Not God the Father…
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Wesrock
Guest
254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.CCC 255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91
Jesus was not the Father incarnated. He was the Son, or Word, which was with the Father in the beginning and in all eternity.
We just need to be clear that the Father was not crucified. Your statement that he was is what moved me from caution over the analogy to believing there was a serious issue.
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Bookcat
Guest
We did - God the Son.God the Father and God the Son are One… tell me how we did not crucify God?
God the Son.
Not God the Father.
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Kliska
Guest
Wesrock is right in his insistence; it has to be clear that the Father is not the Son. The Father was not crucified on the cross. Jesus Who is God the Son was crucified. That does not lessen their unity. Was God on the cross? Yes, God the Son. The Father did not hang on the cross, the Father does not have a human body.
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1ke
Guest
One God, not one Person.God the Father and God the Son are One… tell me how we did not crucify God?
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Karen107
Guest
Respectfully the Oneness of God or Jesus unity with the Father shouldn’t be taken for Granted…IMO That speaks to other religions who do not believe in the trinity.God became man named Emmanuel… God with us…or Jesus (God Saves) who was ‘fully God’ (not partially separate from the Father and HS) and fully Man and was crucified for our sins. God the Father didn’t forsake us. He’ has been right with us always…
God bless.
God bless.
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Karen107
Guest
Again I never said Jesus wasn’t a person but Jesus does bring us in communion with God with us because Jesus is God, the Word.One God, not one Person.
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Wesrock
Guest
Karen, my post #16 was too much, I think. I apologize. I should not have called you a heretic. The idea that the Father was crucified is a serious one, though, and one that is contradictory to Catholic dogma. Certainly there is a strong unity in the Trinity. But the persons (Father, Son, and Spirit) are also distinct from each other, too.
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Wesrock
Guest
Yes, he is 100% the one God. He is not the Father, though.Again I never said Jesus wasn’t a person but Jesus does bring us in communion with God with us because Jesus is God, the Word.
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Bookcat
Guest
Yes God the Son became Man - and was crucified (and risen!).Respectfully the Oneness of God or Jesus unity with the Father shouldn’t be taken for Granted…God became man named Emmanuel… God with us…or Jesus (God Saves) who was ‘fully God’ (not partially separate from the Father and HS) and fully Man and was crucified for our sins.
Yes Jesus was united with the Father and the Son (always…One God - Three Persons).
It would though not be correct to say that the Father suffered and was Crucified - we certainly want to be careful to avoid that.
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Kliska
Guest
You have to be careful not straying into Oneness pentecostalism that denies the Trinity and instead focuses on The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as different modes. They aren’t modes, they are Persons.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Karen, I would say, respectfully, talk to your parish priest and ask him about this - if God the Father was crucified.
Thanks
Thanks
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Right, that’s oneness Pentecostalism.It would though not be correct to say that the Father suffered and was Crucified - we certainly want to be careful to avoid that.
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Karen107
Guest
Dear thank you I appreciate that. Just recently I heard that H20 analogy from a respected Catholic and I wish I could find it again because it hit home with me. It brought me to thinking about the union with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I don’t believe they are separate but the faith of the Christians rest on the Trinity. I believe they are separate persons, but they are of the same ‘stuff’ so are in union with each other. That speaks to the original posters question. . I think there’s more than a Strong Unity between the Father and the Son the Holy Spirit… If the three persons of God weren’t one with each other we couldn’t be reconciled to the Father in heaven… I believe that God has the power to present Himself in many forms but it is through Jesus that we get to know God. God is everywhere, In someone else, a gardener, in nature, and most especially in the Holy Eucharist.Karen, my post #16 was too much, I think. I apologize. I should not have called you a heretic. The idea that the Father was crucified is a serious one, though, and one that is contradictory to Catholic dogma. Certainly there is a strong unity in the Trinity. But the persons (Father, Son, and Spirit) are also distinct from each other, too.
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Karen107
Guest
Maybe a Pentecostal said that but I didn’t. Rather the Father was with Jesus when He died so knew what Jesus felt, just as God the Father knows us when we suffer.Right, that’s oneness Pentecostalism.
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Bookcat
Guest
Such would not be the way to express the nature of God - that would rather part of the way heresy of modalism believed etc.I disagree. We believe in ONE God with 3 manifestations, the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.
Rather - One God, Three Persons.
Such would be rather part of the old* heresy *of PATRIPASSIANISM…that the Father suffered and was crucified…I believe the Father was crucified because there is no separation from the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Rather it was God the Son who was crucified and died on the cross and rose from the dead…one of the persons of the Holy Trinity.
“He who was crucified in the flesh, our Lord Jesus Christ, is true God, Lord of glory, and one of the Holy Trinity.” (CCC 468, Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 432; cf. DS 424; Council of Ephesus, DS 255.)
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AveOTheotokos
Guest
In John 8:56-59, Jesus describes his pre-existence before Abraham, as well as using the phrase “I am”. This sends the Jews over the edge and they try to stone him:
Our early Church fathers have taught that this was Jesus:
John 8:56-58
A reading of Genesis chapters 18 and 19 reveal this visit from Jesus:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad."
57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.
Genesis 18:1-2
1 And the LORD appeared to him by the Oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day.
2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men stood in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the earth…
Genesis 18:16
16 16Then the men set out from there, and they looked toward Sodom; and Abraham went with them to set them on their way…
Genesis 18:21-22
21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry which has come to me; and if not, I will know."
22 So the men turned from there, and went toward Sodom; but Abraham still stood before the LORD…
Genesis 18:33
33 33And the LORD went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place…
Genesis 19:1
1 * The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his face to the earth…
Genesis 19:15
15 15When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.”
Genesis 19:24
The above are just snippets, but basically the Lord who was on earth with Abraham called down fire from the Lord in heaven.24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomor’rah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Our early Church fathers have taught that this was Jesus:
150 AD JUSTIN MARTYR
…as I already said, He brings messages to those to whom God the Maker of all things wishes [messages to be brought], then in regard to Him who appeared to Abraham on earth in human form in like manner as the two angels who came with Him, and who was God even before the creation of the world, it were reasonable for you to entertain the same belief as is entertained by the whole of your nation." “Assuredly,” he said, “for up to this moment this has been our [the Jews] belief.” … "And now have you not perceived, my friends, that one of the three, who is both God and Lord, and ministers to Him who is in the heavens, is Lord of the two angels? For when [the angels] proceeded to Sodom, He remained behind, and communed with Abraham in the words recorded by Moses; and when He departed after the conversation, Abraham went back to his place. And when he came [to Sodom], the two angels no longer conversed with Lot, but Himself, as the Scripture makes evident; and He is the Lord who received commission from the Lord who [remains] in the heavens, i.e., the Maker of all things, to inflict upon Sodom and Gomorrah the [judgments] which the Scripture describes in these terms: ‘The Lord rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.’ "(Dialogue of Justin Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew, Chapter LVI.—God Who Appeared to Moses is Distinguished from God the Father.)
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Karen107
Guest
Jesus is God… Matthew 1:23 “Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,Such would not be the way to express the nature of God - that would rather part of the way heresy of modalism believed etc.
Rather - One God, Three Persons.
Such would be rather part of the old* heresy *of PATRIPASSIANISM…that the Father suffered and was crucified…
Rather it was God the Son who was crucified and died on the cross and rose from the dead…one of the persons of the Holy Trinity.
“He who was crucified in the flesh, our Lord Jesus Christ, is true God, Lord of glory, and one of the Holy Trinity.” (CCC 468, Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 432; cf. DS 424; Council of Ephesus, DS 255.)
****and they shall name him Emmanuel,”
which means, **“God is with us.” **
catholic.com/tract/the-trinity From that link:
The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).
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Wesrock
Guest
Jesus is God. Jesus is the Son. The Son is God. Jesus is not the Father. The Father is God.Jesus is God… Matthew 1:23 “Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
****and they shall name him Emmanuel,”
which means, **“God is with us.” **
God assumed flesh in Jesus Christ. The Son assumed flesh in Jesus Christ. The Father did not assume flesh.
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