My problem with the idea of the trinity

[Wesrock]

Actually Jesus was Praying to Our Father in Heaven, not in secret, because Jesus shows us what we should do… Everything that Jesus did was part of His teaching us what we should do and Jesus confirms that when He send out His disciples to teach everything that He taught them. But that doesn’t mean God the Father wasn’t with or in Jesus fully aware of what His Son Jesus was going through…

I would point you to the scripture

John 14: 8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10*Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?

Lets backtrack, if we leave this important fact out we lose sight of the Holy Trinity.

Karen, did the Son exist before Jesus was conceived?

 

[Karen107]

Karen, did the Son exist before Jesus was conceived?

Yes…Read John 1:1

 

[Karen107]

Karen, did the Son exist before Jesus was conceived?

Wesrock is Jesus God?

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock is Jesus God?

Yes.

 

[PluniaZ]

I stated from the start that I was wary of the term inferior due to its possible implications, though I later fell into using it. However, while subordinationism is heresy, relational subordinationism is not. Perhaps it is not stressed by all (particularly in the west), but it is not inconsistent with orthodoxy. Your quote from Saint Thomas is specifically regarding an objection to the Son being equal to the Father in power/nature, and I agree with Thomas, who agrees that the Father “shows” and the Son “hears” as from an eternal begetting, that the Son is equal in power and nature to the Father. He specifically is refuting the idea that the Father’s “commanding” does makes the Father greater in power than the Son, which is consistent with what I’ve said: It does not make Him greater in power.

So then don’t use the terms “inferior” and “superior” when speaking of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit at all. There is no inferiority or superiority of relationship among the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father begets the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Otherwise, they are equal and identical in every respect.

You seem to have fallen for the neo-subordinationist movement (my name for it) in the Eastern Orthodox church. Don’t listen to them. None of the Church Fathers confessed the Son or the Holy Spirit to be inferior to the Father, in relation or in any other respect.

 

[Karen107]

Thank you all for the great responses, however I just have a few more curiosities.

And he saw the **Spirit of God **descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my son with whom I am well pleased.
Who was speaking here? The same God that spoke to the prophets in the old testament? Or was it Jesus?..

It was God the Father in union with the Holy Spirit…speaking of the Son of Man Jesus…It is a teaching moment about the Holy Trinity… They were all present…

And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”
"You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I…

In that statement Jesus was speaking as the Son of Man who was made a little lower than the angels. In other words the most perfect man, but not God… This is the Son of Man Jesus not the Son of God Jesus… Jesus was both fully divine and fully human. Due to this we can be brought to the Father through Him who intercedes for us to the Father… He takes up our sins and brings us into communion with Our Father in Heaven…

Why are these not evidence of Jesus being inferior to the father? In the first verse he is praying to God. But some here say he is just showing us how to pray. I always thought he was praying to the father in heaven…

Jesus shows us the way to the Father AND is speaking to God the Father just as we speak to God the Father, from our human condition AND God the Father as another person of God. In that moment Jesus was speaking from his human condition especially as He was in a suffering moment and needed help and guidance. This is what we should do when we suffer as well…So Jesus is showing us the Way to the Father…

The 2nd one should explain itself, but as wesrock said the Son in nature is inferior to the father. So how is The Father not simply Jesus’s father which makes him more powerful and knowledgable? I know that sounds heretic, but is this a terrible way to interpret it?.

The Father is the Creator, Jesus helps us find our way to the Father and we cannot do this without the Holy Spirit… Our Home is in our Fathers Home in heaven… Yes the God of Abraham… Same God…

Thanks again for all the answers, they have helped tremendously.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Jesus is definetly God. Its is just hard to wrap my head around the concept of trinity.

 

[Karen107]

Jesus is definetly God. Its is just hard to wrap my head around the concept of trinity.

That’s great that you know that about Jesus !

I would tell you then to keep your mind focused on Jesus and it will begin to make sense. The whole of the bible from the front cover to the back focuses in on one important thing, the Lamb was slain.

 

[Vico]

Jesus is definetly God. Its is just hard to wrap my head around the concept of trinity.

God is absolutely simple one divine will and nature, the persons are in our way of thinking due to opposition of relation, and no one Divine Person has independent existence:

252 The Church uses

• (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity,
• (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and
• (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.

 

[Wesrock]

So then don’t use the terms “inferior” and “superior” when speaking of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit at all. There is no inferiority or superiority of relationship among the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father begets the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Otherwise, they are equal and identical in every respect.

You seem to have fallen for the neo-subordinationist movement (my name for it) in the Eastern Orthodox church. Don’t listen to them. None of the Church Fathers confessed the Son or the Holy Spirit to be inferior to the Father, in relation or in any other respect.

Does not one show and the other hear, as Saint Thomas says? Still, I think we’re understanding the terms differently, but I’ll be more cautious with their use so as to avoid confusion. However, relational subordinationism is not heresy according to the Catholic Church.

 

[Gorgias]

Jesus is definetly God. Its is just hard to wrap my head around the concept of trinity.

Good intuition – it is a subject that will always retain mystery!

I had one professor who taught us, “if anyone ever comes up to you and says that they understand the Trinity fully… run away! By his very assertion, he’s just told you that he misunderstands it!” No one can fully understand or explain the Trinity (other than the Father, the Son, or the Spirit themselves); after all, we’re just looking in from the ‘outside’, trying to understand the interior life of the Trinity.

So, we accept it… we witness to it… and we believe in it. And, I guess, we hope that, one day, when we witness the Trinity in God’s glory, we’ll understand it better.

It’s something that’s beyond the scope of any of our experiences. It can only exist in the context of God. So, not being able to “wrap our heads around the concept” makes perfect sense.

 

[PluniaZ]

Does not one show and the other hear, as Saint Thomas says? Still, I think we’re understanding the terms differently, but I’ll be more cautious with their use so as to avoid confusion. However, relational subordinationism is not heresy according to the Catholic Church.

Yes, relational subordination is a heresy in the Catholic Church. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equal in every respect, other than that the Father begets the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Saying anything else is heresy. You need to repent.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Yes, relational subordination is a heresy in the Catholic Church. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equal in every respect, other than that the Father begets the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Saying anything else is heresy. You need to repent.

Why does wesrock need to repent?

 

[PluniaZ]

Because saying one person of the Most Holy Trinity is “subordinate” or “inferior” or “superior” to another is a lie, a lie against God and therefore blasphemy. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equal. That is the truth.

 

[Wesrock]

Yes, relational subordination is a heresy in the Catholic Church. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equal in every respect, other than that the Father begets the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Saying anything else is heresy. You need to repent.

Subordinationism is heresy. Relational subordinationism is not, and I will need references before stating otherwise. The Father actively begets the Son. The Son is passively begotten by the Father. The Father sends the Son. The Son does not send the Father. The Father shows, the Son hears. If you say otherwise, if you claim the relationship between the two is identical such that each sends the other, or that the Son is also unbegotten, or that the Son also begets the Father, you are speaking heresy. The Son is not lesser than the Father, but the Father is the giver and the origin of the Son.

 

[PluniaZ]

The traditional statement of the Trinity is the Athanasian Creed:

preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Quicumque.html

It is best not to depart from its language unless you are citing an approved theologian or church document.

 

[Wesrock]

Hillary of Poitiers

1. But if His equality is doubted because the Name is given Him after He put off the form of God, we dishonour Him by ignoring the mystery of the humility which He assumed. The birth of His humanity brought to Him a new nature, and His form was changed in His humility, by the assumption of a servant’s form, but now the giving of the Name restores to Him equality of form. Ask yourself what it is, which is given. If the gift be something pertaining to God, the grant to the receiving nature does not impair the divinity of the giving nature. Again, the words, And gave Him the Name, involve a mystery in the giving, but the giving of the Name does not make it another name. To Jesus is given, that to Him, Every knee shall bow of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord in the glory of God the Father. The honour is given Him that He should be confessed in the glory of God the Father. Do you hear Him say, The Father is greater than I? Know Him also, of Whom it is said in reward of His obedience, And gave unto Him the Name which is above every name ; hear Him Who said, I and the Father are one; He that has seen Me, has seen the Father also; I am in the Father, and the Father in Me. Consider the honour of the confession which is granted Him, that Jesus is Lord in the glory of God the Father. When, then, is the Father greater than the Son? Surely, when He gives Him the Name above every name. And on the other hand, when is it that the Son and the Father are one? Surely, when every tongue confesses that Jesus is Lord in the glory of God the Father. If, then, the Father is greater through His authority to give, is the Son less through the confession of receiving? The Giver is greater: but the Receiver is not less, for to Him it is given to be one with the Giver. If it is not given to Jesus to be confessed in the glory of God the Father, He is less than the Father. But if it is given Him to be in that glory, in which the Father is, we see in the prerogative of giving, that the Giver is greater, and in the confession of the gift, that the Two are One. The Father is, therefore, greater than the Son: for manifestly He is greater, Who makes another to be all that He Himself is, Who imparts to the Son by the mystery of the birth the image of His own unbegotten nature, Who begets Him from Himself into His own form, and restores Him again from the form of a servant to the form of God, Whose work it is that Christ, born God according to the Spirit in the glory of the Father, but now Jesus Christ dead in the flesh, should be once more God in the glory of the Father. When, therefore, Christ says that He is going to the Father, He reveals the reason why they should rejoice if they loved Him, because the Father is greater than He.

newadvent.org/fathers/330209.htm

I feel that you are taking my statement and taking it far out of context. Again, I ask you, does the Son beget the Father as He is also begotten by the Father? Does the Son send the Father as the Father sends Him? Does the Son not find His origin in the Father, as principle from principle?

 

[Wesrock]

The Son is of the same substance as the Father. He is not one iota less in power, eternity, or any other respect of His nature. They differ in relationship, as I have said. The Father shows, the Son hears. The unbegotten Father begets the Son.

 

[Bookcat]

A section of the Ancient Quicumque (Athanasian Creed)​

This is what the catholic faith teaches:

We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity.

Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.

For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.

But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty.

What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is.

The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.

Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being.

So there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being.

Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent.

Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being.

Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

However, there are not three gods, but one God.

The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.

However, there are not three lords, but one Lord.

For as we are obliged by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person singly to be God and Lord, so too are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.

The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone.

The Son is not made, nor created, but begotten by the Father alone.

The Holy Spirit is not made, nor created, nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son.

There is, then, one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less.

The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another.

So that in all things, as is has been said above, the Unity is to be worshiped in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity…

(preces-latinae.org/index.htm- I cut out the Latin for easier read)

 

[PluniaZ]

I feel that you are taking my statement and taking it far out of context. Again, I ask you, does the Son beget the Father as He is also begotten by the Father? Does the Son send the Father as the Father sends Him? Does the Son not find His origin in the Father, as principle from principle?

It is well known that Hilary of Poitiers wrote “conciliatory” language (to put it politely) toward the semi-Arians of his day in order to bring them over from the depths of Arianism. Outside of that historical context, his compromising language cannot be taken as an absolute statement of Christian doctrine following the settlement of the Arian controversy.

The orthodox faith is that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equal. The Father begets the Son. The Son does not beget the Father. That does not make the Son “subordinate” to the Father. Cite one doctor of the Church who says it does.

Aquinas is clear that one Divine Person being “sent” by another does not make them not equal. See Question 43 Article 1. Each Divine Person shares the same immutable Divine Essence and cannot be changed or commanded, even by another Divine Person.

Show me one writing of a Doctor or the Church that calls one Divine Person “subordinate” to another.