T
TheTrinitySaves
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For the Father is greater then I
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B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes that is a verse that was mistakenly understood in heresies from the past.For the Father is greater then I
T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
It sounds pretty clearYes that is a verse that was mistakenly understood in heresies from the past.
W
Wesrock
Guest
I’ve asked twice already, and will ask a third time.It is well known that Hilary of Poitiers wrote “conciliatory” language (to put it politely) toward the semi-Arians of his day in order to bring them over from the depths of Arianism. Outside of that historical context, his compromising language cannot be taken as an absolute statement of Christian doctrine following the settlement of the Arian controversy.
The orthodox faith is that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equal. The Father begets the Son. The Son does not beget the Father. That does not make the Son “subordinate” to the Father. Cite one doctor of the Church who says it does.
Aquinas is clear that one Divine Person being “sent” by another does not make them not equal. See Question 43 Article 1. Each Divine Person shares the same immutable Divine Essence and cannot be changed or commanded, even by another Divine Person.
Show me one writing of a Doctor or the Church that calls one Divine Person “subordinate” to another.
Does the Father beget the Son?
Does the Father send the Son?
Does the Son beget the Father?
Does the Son send the Father?
From all eternity of course, in such a way that the Son is no less than the Father. There is no change in God, nor have I stated there is a change.
T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
But the Son in human form is inferior to the Father?I’ve asked twice already, and will ask a third time.
Does the Father beget the Son?
Does the Father send the Son?
Does the Son beget the Father?
Does the Son send the Father?
From all eternity of course, in such a way that the Son is no less than the Father. There is no change in God, nor have I stated there is a change.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes that is what those who embraced the heresy said…It sounds pretty clear
As did those who embraced other heresies down through the ages too. They too would quote this or that quote and say - it is clear…
One cannot lift one quote of the Bible and run with it…one must understand it in the full context of Scripture and Tradition…
One must understand it as the Teaching Authority established by Christ understands it at teaches.
P
PluniaZ
Guest
And I answered. The Father begets the Son. The Son does not beget the Father. Aquinas discusses the “sending” in the cite I gave you. He expressly says the Divine Persons are equal, even in this context. He does not say one Divine Person is “subordinate” to another. That is your language and is heretical. You need to repent.I’ve asked twice already, and will ask a third time.
Does the Father beget the Son?
Does the Father send the Son?
Does the Son beget the Father?
Does the Son send the Father?
From all eternity of course, in such a way that the Son is no less than the Father. There is no change in God, nor have I stated there is a change.
W
Wesrock
Guest
The Son is never less than the Father. However, Jesus can speak from his human nature at tlmes.But the Son in human form is inferior to the Father?
T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
Agreed, but the verse means somethingYes that is what those who embraced the heresy said.
As did those who embraced other heresies down through the ages too. They too would quote this or that quote and say - it is clear…
One cannot lift one quote of the Bible and run with it…one must understand it in the full context of Scripture and Tradition…One must understand it as the Authority established by Christ understands it at teaches.
B
Bookcat
Guest
catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/jesus-is-godFor the Father is greater then I
B
Bookcat
Guest
B
Bookcat
Guest
A section of the Ancient Quicumque (Athanasian Creed)
This is what the catholic faith teaches:
We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity.
Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is.
The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being.
So there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being.
Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent.
Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being.
Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
However, there are not three gods, but one God.
The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
However, there are not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are obliged by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person singly to be God and Lord, so too are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.
The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone.
The Son is not made, nor created, but begotten by the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit is not made, nor created, nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son.
There is, then, one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less.
The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another.
So that in all things, as is has been said above, the Unity is to be worshiped in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity…
(preces-latinae.org/index.htm- I cut out the Latin for easier read)
W
Wesrock
Guest
My statements in context have been clear enough that I only referred to the difference in relations between the Divine Persons and the Father being the unbegotten and the Son not, and I hold no disagreements with the Athanasian Creed or the Church on the equality of the Divine Persons. You seem to go so far as putting my statements in a temporal context instead of eternal which changes the dynamic being spoken of. Still, I will refrain from using certain terms in the future due to the confusion they may bring, which I already expressed reservation over. You seem to be the one who takes any distinguishing between the relationships of the Divine Persons as implying an essential inequality, which there certainly is not, and we need to be wary of removing all distinctions but names and moving into modalism. The relationships, existing in all eternity, are not mirrored, and only one Divine Person is unbegotten.And I answered. The Father begets the Son. The Son does not beget the Father. Aquinas discusses the “sending” in the cite I gave you. He expressly says the Divine Persons are equal, even in this context. He does not say one Divine Person is “subordinate” to another. That is your language and is heretical. You need to repent.
W
Wesrock
Guest
Plunia may wish to reach out to Mr. Akin regarding alleged heresy:
And there is no difficulty in doing this, for the Father is above the Son in the economy of the Trinity and in the order of Persons (the Son is begotten by the Father), but not they are equal in essence. In fact, they are equal in essence precisely because the Jesus is the Son of the Father.
If I, as a man, fathered a son, my son would have the same essence I do–being a man–and while I might be greater than him in rank or position (by virtue of being his father), we would have equal essences.
This is the situation between the Son and the Father. Both have the same essence, and so both are equal in what they are, even if the Father is above the Son in other senses.
T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
“Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:6b-7Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)).
“[T]he Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)).
I am making one assumption: That The Father is the Person that was present in the old testament.
The two verses that your article cited do not prove That Jesus and The father are equal. I am not denying that Jesus is a God, but is he the same person as the old testament God? Their is numerous evidence in scripture that expressly says Jesus is not the same person! Jesus Called God his Father does not prove The father and The son are equal or the same. It proves jesus is divine, but it actually suggests that Jesus is inferior to the Father due to the Father-Son relationship.
“[T]he Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)).
I am making one assumption: That The Father is the Person that was present in the old testament.
The two verses that your article cited do not prove That Jesus and The father are equal. I am not denying that Jesus is a God, but is he the same person as the old testament God? Their is numerous evidence in scripture that expressly says Jesus is not the same person! Jesus Called God his Father does not prove The father and The son are equal or the same. It proves jesus is divine, but it actually suggests that Jesus is inferior to the Father due to the Father-Son relationship.
W
Wesrock
Guest
There is only one God. If the three persons differ essentially then you have three Gods, not one. They are equal in nature, power, being, eternity, being God and Lord… They are One.“Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:6b-7Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)).
“[T]he Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)).
I am making one assumption: That The Father is the Person that was present in the old testament.
The two verses that your article cited do not prove That Jesus and The father are equal. I am not denying that Jesus is a God, but is he the same person as the old testament God? Their is numerous evidence in scripture that expressly says Jesus is not the same person! Jesus Called God his Father does not prove The father and The son are equal or the same. It proves jesus is divine, but it actually suggests that Jesus is inferior to the Father due to the Father-Son relationship.
T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
I guess I just resign to not being capable of understanding the trinity. I believe in it, but Its hard to ignore some bible verses.There is only one God. If the three persons differ essentially then you have three Gods, not one. They are equal in nature, power, being, eternity, being God and Lord… They are One.
W
Wesrock
Guest
Not understanding the Trinity puts you with the rest of us. I don’t understand the Trinity as a rational concept so much as I (try to) understand what we can say and cannot say about it, and the arguments why. The Trinity is not something that can be entirely rationalized in terms of anything on our finite level of existence. God isn’t just the most powerful being among all other beings, He is something that just transcends all categories we know of.I guess I just resign to not being capable of understanding the trinity. I believe in it, but Its hard to ignore some bible verses.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Very nice summary…
A section of the Ancient Quicumque (Athanasian Creed)
This is what the catholic faith teaches:
We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity.
Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is.
The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being.
So there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being.
Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent.
Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being.
Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
However, there are not three gods, but one God.
The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
However, there are not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are obliged by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person singly to be God and Lord, so too are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.
The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone.
The Son is not made, nor created, but begotten by the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit is not made, nor created, nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son.
There is, then, one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less.
The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another.
So that in all things, as is has been said above, the Unity is to be worshiped in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity…
(preces-latinae.org/index.htm- I cut out the Latin for easier read)
G
Gorgias
Guest
Present? Or speaking? There’s a difference. More to the point, the presence of the Father in the OT doesn’t imply the lack of the Trinity.“Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:6b-7).
“[T]he Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18).
I am making one assumption: That The Father is the Person that was present in the old testament.
Here’s the thing: if the Father and the Logos are consubstantial – that is, of the same substance – and the Father is God, then the Logos is also God. Moreover, he cannot be “less” God without God Himself being “less God”. After all, God’s nature is “simple”, not “composite”, and therefore, He doesn’t have parts (let alone have parts that are rankable as ‘greater’ or ‘less’). Therefore, the conclusion is manifest: if Trinity, then God is co-equal in all His Persons.The two verses that your article cited do not prove That Jesus and The father are equal.
A hint: you can’t use the term ‘person’ here, since ‘person’ is a term of art in this context. It means something distinct in a theological sense. Do you mean that Jesus and the Father are distinct beings? By asking “is he the same person”, what are you asking? (Perhaps you’re asking a question about the Incarnation?)I am not denying that Jesus is a God, but is he the same person as the old testament God?
“Inferior” in what sense?It proves jesus is divine, but it actually suggests that Jesus is inferior to the Father due to the Father-Son relationship.
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