My problem with the visions at Fatima

[CrossoverManiac]

Whenever a messager of God comes to see a person, that messager goes to glorify the Lord, and not themselves.

Revelations 22:8-9

8
It is I, John, who heard and saw these things, and when I heard and saw them I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.
9
But he said to me, “Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the message of this book. Worship God.”

This is in sharp contrast to what Mary told the children of Fatima:

“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.”

I find it hard to believe that Mary would tout herself. Her message has always been about lifting up God, not herself (Luke 1:48; John 2:5).

 

[LilyM]

Well, the church has never said the visions were real, or compelled anyone to believe in them, only that they were ‘worthy of belief’, meaning that there is nothing in their content contrary to Catholic dogma or teaching.

Do you accept the apparitions of Lourdes? Didn’t she come, in part, to affirm the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Sounds like she was giving honour to herself then.

And especially so in the Rue du Bac (Miraculous Medal) apparitions to St Catherine Laboure - she requested a medal struck in her honour for heavens sake! Not to mention when she appeared to St Simon Stock and instituted the Brown Scapular, which again is in her honour.

Nothing too awfully inconsistent with Fatim then, but even if you find that there is you aren’t required to believe in the apparitions.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Well, the church has never said the visions were real, or compelled anyone to believe in them, only that they were ‘worthy of belief’, meaning that there is nothing in their content contrary to Catholic dogma or teaching.

Do you accept the apparitions of Lourdes? Didn’t she come, in part, to affirm the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Sounds like she was giving honour to herself then.

And especially so in the Rue du Bac (Miraculous Medal) apparitions to St Catherine Laboure - she requested a medal struck in her honour for heavens sake! Not to mention when she appeared to St Simon Stock and instituted the Brown Scapular, which again is in her honour.

Nothing too awfully inconsistent with Fatim then, but even if you find that there is you aren’t required to believe in the apparitions.

Even though the Fatima Apparition is approved by the Vatican, I don’t believe in it. However, I do honor and ask for the Virgin Mary intercession via the Rosary when I have the time.

 

[Fidelis]

As others have pointed out, we are not required to believe in any particular private revelation, since they are binding only on those who recieve them. In the case of Fatima and certain other alleged apparitions, the Church has pronounced them worthy of belief. While still not required to adhere to them, a Catholic would be on shaky ground to say (and I know you are not saying this), in his own private judgement, the vision is false and a pack of lies.

Having said that, I believe this is the key statement, which you highlighted above:

**God wishes to establish in the world **devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace.

If, in fact, God wishes for something to be done, including using a person like Mary as the instrument to accomplish his will, then that person is not glorifying themselves by merely conveying this fact. It is simply part of the message they are delivering.

Now, if Mary had said something like “By the way, as an aside, I think God is doing this through me because I’m such hot stuff and he knows anyone else will flub the job,” I’d have my doubts too.

 

[antimon]

that prophecy showed up true, there was World War II. After it, Russia controlled half of Europe and many countries in Asia, Church and all religions were persecuted in those parts. To be a christian was disadvantage, to be a part of clergy was dangerous.

 

[water]

that prophecy showed up true, there was World War II. After it, Russia controlled half of Europe and many countries in Asia, Church and all religions were persecuted in those parts. To be a christian was disadvantage, to be a part of clergy was dangerous.

I believe it whole heartedly. I don’t believe we worship Virgin Mary. If others have doubt, you may read this book “Consecration Prepartion for the Triumphant Vicotry of the Immaculate Heart of Mary”.

This book is a novena and it explains well that we are not worshiping Her. How many times in our live times we have asked Virgin Mary to interceed for us? How many times, we say we believe she is the Mother of God?

Virgin Mary is our Spiritual Director, through Her our heart joins Her Son’s!

Virgin Mary appeared to do this as our Lord’s wishes. Each of us need to read that part louder to see that this is the message for God Himself!

 

[Michael_C]

The massive amount of witnesses to what happened that day as stated they would happen by the three children gives credibility to what they said. people from as far as 13 miles away saw it and non-believers saw the miracle. I believe the children and the message.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Hmmm, if this bothers you, you must be a bit upset that the U.S. bishops are reconsecrating the United States to Mary on November 11, 2006.

I, OTOH, am thrilled.

Don’t you remember in the Magnificat that Mary claims, “all generations shall call me blessed” ? Wow, that ‘might’ look as suspicious as the somewhat out-of-context- quotes you highlight, except that, as Mother of God, she IS blessed, whether or not any given individual “thinks” that she is.

As such, the statements that she made are as humble as ever. Not “I” wish to have, but “God wishes this through me”.

Indeed, considering the state of humanity in the last 100 years alone, our sins cry to the heavens for justice, and we should be ashamed to even THINK about approaching Almighty God directly, without much penance.

It is extremely HUMBLING to have to think that you are so ‘unworthy’ that you need to approach the King of Kings through an ‘intercessor’ --a humble woman at that.

It is also extremely LOVING of Mary, our Mother, to take on this intecessory task FOR us.

 

[Polish]

Whenever a messager of God comes to see a person, that messager goes to glorify the Lord, and not themselves.

Revelations 22:8-9

8
It is I, John, who heard and saw these things, and when I heard and saw them I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.
9
But he said to me, “Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the message of this book. Worship God.”

This is in sharp contrast to what Mary told the children of Fatima:

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

I find it hard to believe that Mary would tout herself. Her message has always been about lifting up God, not herself (Luke 1:48; John 2:5).

The way I look at it is … this is THE MOTHER OF GOD speaking, the one BORN WITHOUT SIN, the CHOSEN ONE TO BEAR THE SECOND PERSON OF THE TRINITY, not an ordinary person, not a saint, not an angel, not you and not me. She appeared at Fatima to relate God’s message to us. She stated what “God wishes”, how it should be done, and what the result would be.

Being that she gave this message to three ignorant children only emphasizes the truthfulness of her words. These children could not have understood or made up ideas relating that the people and countries being consecrated to her Immaculate Heart.

Christ gave us His Mother during the hour of His death. Surely, she would only do His Will.

 

[blessedstar]

Well Who made Mary’s heart Immaculate? Who caused her to be conceived without original sin? Who’s grace filled her?

God.

In God allowing Mary to reveal the Immaculate nature of her Heart and to consecrate the world to it, is to give glory to God because He has raised mere humans, which are nothing but dust to great grace and sanctity and none are closer to God than our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary. Who other than she who bore Him in her womb as the new Ark of the New Covenant and loved Him and loved Him so purely as to suffer so intimately with Him at the foot of the Cross and wait for the Holy Spirit with the Apostles in the Upper Room and there her Spouse fell upon her once more in great approval of her, will lead us faithfully to Christ Jesus? Not a mere vessel, not a mere woman, but a woman chosen by God to be His Mother and the Mother of the Church and the Church being all of us she will tend to God’s children as her own because this is what Jesus commanded from the Cross and God still commands her to do today.

Mary’s heart is Immaculate and it is precisely because of and to God’s Glory that her heart is as such. Those who recognise this give glory to God.

‘Most highly favoured’ that was the Angel Gabriels address to Mary. None can so clearly direct us to Jesus as her so favoured by God and so intimately united to Him.

God chose Mary centrally to His plan of salvation, God chooses Mary for all yesterdays, today and forever. God’s Will is for Eternity, the Eternal Moment ever passing in the nature of the earthly prolonged ‘minute’ of our life, those lives before us and those yet to come.

 

[Eireann]

CrossoverManiac

First off I believe in Fatima, secondly…You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, **God wishes **to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.

It’s not Marys wish.

Apparently it’s Gods wish, good enough for me.

 

[Georgess]

Whenever a messager of God comes to see a person, that messager goes to glorify the Lord, and not themselves.

Revelations 22:8-9

8
It is I, John, who heard and saw these things, and when I heard and saw them I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.
9
But he said to me, “Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers the prophets and of those who keep the message of this book. Worship God.”

Along with the many good points in the above posts, hope it is noted that Bl. Mother came or rather was sent …not to be worshipped but to help her children to be able to worship God …as He deserves …

It is often our own ego that get projected , when we attribute that Bl. Mother is asking for recognition for herself …

Focusing on what God has done for her , and in turn for each of us , help us to too , to be grateful and more …

 

[Veritas41]

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

Please note what Mary says in the beginning, “if people do not cease offending God.” This is the reason Mary appeared – because people were offending *God *with their sins. What does she say God wishes to establish – devotion to Mary’s immaculate heart. Mary’s heart is sinless, perfectly full of love for God, as ours should be. God is giving us a model to imitate and to love (“devotion”). Mary’s immaculate heart points us to God ultimately because it is immaculate due to the saving grace of God and Mary’s cooperation with that grace by her perfect obedience to God.

By the way, the prophecy of the light was fulfilled in 1938 with the appearance of a very unusual aurora borealis that year. World War II broke out less than a year later. For me, even though I’m not obligated as a Catholic to accept Marian apparitions, I find no reason not to because I trust the Church’s judgment in such matters.

 

[Mijoy2]

Sort of a side question.

Were there any people at Fatima during the Dancing of the Sun who either did not see anything, or attributed it to something totally natural and coincidental (timing)?

 

[CrossoverManiac]

CrossoverManiac

First off I believe in Fatima, secondly…You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, **God wishes **to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.

It’s not Marys wish.

Apparently it’s Gods wish, good enough for me.

Okay then, in that case, it is God’s wish that you run right into rush hour traffic and die. Now, some may argue just because I claimed that God told me to tell you doesn’t make it true (even the Bible speaks of false prophets and false signs), but hey, we should just go ahead and accept everything without question.

 

[Victorious]

Okay then, in that case, it is God’s wish that you run right into rush hour traffic and die. Now, some may argue just because I claimed that God told me to tell you doesn’t make it true (even the Bible speaks of false prophets and false signs), but hey, we should just go ahead and accept everything without question.

I’ve really tried to make sense out of this, but maybe I’m just too tired. Could you perhaps rephrase so I know where you’re going with this?

 

[LilyM]

CrossoverManiac:

Okay then, in that case, it is God’s wish that you run right into rush hour traffic and die. Now, some may argue just because I claimed that God told me to tell you doesn’t make it true (even the Bible speaks of false prophets and false signs), but hey, we should just go ahead and accept everything without question.

Without question? If you look at the link about accepted and rejected apparitions you’ll see just how much investigation the Church does into phenomena such as Fatima before it comes down for or against them. They do an awful lot of very tough questioning on our behalf.

See how many are still not decided, for example? See how many have a negative decision against them? It’s not like the Church is running around approving apparitions all over the place (as any Medjugorje supporter can tell you). They are rigorous. In spite of which we are still not required to believe in any of them.

Eireann, I think, has every right to trust in the Church’s judgement on such matters. If you don’t then you’re entitled not to as well. And she did use the all-important word ‘apparently’ in her comment, so she wasn’t criticising you for having a healthy desire to look further into Fatima. I think you took offence where absolutely none was intended.

 

[Vidi_Aquam]

Even though the Church has not proclaimed any “official” teaching regarding apparitions. It did canonize those who saw the visions. And the canonization is indeed infalible. So the Church is sort of…subtly…saying that the apparitions are true.

 

[Eireann]

Okay then, in that case, it is God’s wish that you run right into rush hour traffic and die.

Even though this is a ridiculous logic, I’ll answer, God asked Abram to sacrifice his son, Abraham complied, God intervened.
If God wished it then I’d have to comply.

Now, some may argue just because I claimed that God told me to tell you doesn’t make it true (even the Bible speaks of false prophets and false signs), but hey, we should just go ahead and accept everything without question.

Then why accept the prophets of the Bible that were written years before Fatima ?

What is your yardstick for discernment ? mine is obedience, was there any disobedience from the seers ?
Compare that with other alleged apparitions and the disobedience is just amazing, so to me not worth even considering.

Saint Rita of Casica was trying to join a convent, the Sister didn’t accept her at first.
To test her out she asked her to plant a dead stick in the ground and water it every day
To the Mother Superiors surprise, it started to grow, it is now a massive vine who’s leaves are sent worldwide for healing.

Jesus told Saint Margaret Alaquo that "the devil has no power over the obedient " and Jesus went on to say that without it no-one can please Him.

You need to go re-read the message of Fatima, Mary said that Lucia would have to remain on earth for some time.

Did this happen ? yes, she died the same year as JP2 an old lady, so that is true.

Over 70,000 people saw the sun heading towards them at great speed, atheists as well as believers, they fell on their knees in terror. Did this happen? err, yes.

On the night of January 25, 1938, Sister Lucia stood at her convent window and saw an ominous red glow that lit the entire sky. This light was seen throughout Europe and Africa and in part of America and Asia. Scientists tried to explain it as a most unusual display of the Aurora Borealis, or Northern Lights. But Sister Lucia knew that it was the great sign foretold by Our Lady on July 13, 1917, and that the punishment of the world was at hand. Several weeks later, Hitler invaded Austria striking the match that was to set the world aflame. Thus began another and worse war in the reign of Pius XI, as predicted by the Mother of God at Fatima.
Source

Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions. The first and second parts of the “secret”—which are here published in sequence so as to complete the documentation—refer especially to the frightening vision of hell, devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the Second World War, and finally the prediction of the immense damage that Russia would do to humanity by abandoning the Christian faith and embracing Communist totalitarianism. Vatican

You know, you can question and try and weed out this and that and the other, but sometimes it’s just down to faith, like Peter stepping out onto the water.

I believe in Fatima, it is to me as the Vatican website has said, been the most prophetic Apparition of modern times.

So I’ll ask you again, what do you accept in regard to apparitions and what do you reject, and how did you reach this conclusion ?

 

[Victorious]

Even though the Church has not proclaimed any “official” teaching regarding apparitions. It did canonize those who saw the visions. And the canonization is indeed infalible. So the Church is sort of…subtly…saying that the apparitions are true.

Actually, if you’re talking about Fatima, Jacinta and Francisco have been beatified, but not yet canonized. And Sr. Lucia only died last year, and I’m not sure where they’re at on the cause for her sainthood.