My problem with the visions at Fatima

[blessedstar]

The same Catholic Church that discerned that Fatima was worthy of belief also discerned what to include in Sacred Scripture.

 

[CrossoverManiac]

Is this the same Papal authority that ran the Inquisition and put Galileo in prison?

 

[blessedstar]

Is this the same Papal authority that ran the Inquisition and put Galileo in prison?

Now you have nailed your colours to the flag pole. You do not believe in the Authority of the Seat of Peter, The Holy See, the Church founded by Christ Jesus.

There would be no Bible in the world if it wasn’t for the Catholic Apostles and the Catholic Church who compiled the books of the Bible. Why then accept the Bible , it is Catholic in origin?

No-one can argue with you nor convince you

Believe as you wish, only say a prayer for me and I will say one for you.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Funnily enough, the way this thread was going I** was** expecting the Spanish Inquisition. . .

And there it is, right on schedule, right after the ‘scripture alone’ . . .

 

[Victorious]

Let me explain it again. Just because someone claimed that God is telling them to relay a message, doesn’t mean they are. Even the Bible warn of people who claim to speak for God whereas God told them no such things.

Oh. Check.

Well, of course the Bible warns us to test all spirits, and I think the Church has done precisely that. If you’re going to claim to be a visionary, then you’d better be truthful, because you’re going to be subjected to piercing scrutiny, relentless examination, endless poking and prodding, and withering cross-examination. And the substance of your claims are going to be checked against the deposit of faith, down to the smallest detail. If you’re a fake, sooner or later that fact will emerge.

As Catholics, we are accused of being superstitious, because we accept the supernatural. But I think it’s safe to say that the Catholic Church has debunked more crappola than any other person or organization in history. There are a great many “visionaries” that the Church has exposed as frauds.

That said: as has been pointed out many times on this thread alone, private revelations are binding only on those who receive them. The rest of us can take them or leave them.

 

[blessedstar]

Your profile says you are Catholic. Catholics do not only believe in Sacred Scripture they also believe and accept Tradition. There is no division here, Sacred Scripture contains all the words of Jesus since time began until the end of the age of the Apostles (Ot and Nt being all about the journey of man in faith and about the coming and manifestation of God to them Incarnate in Jesus). Some Tradition is to be found in Sacred Scripture but what has been taught by the Catholic Church has been held in Tradition since the time of Christ Jesus’ Institution of the Church and upheld by the Apostles, this has been faithfully handed down for over 2000 years.

Heresies have come and gone, different ideas of Christianity have come and gone, various branches of Christianity divide and fall away from each other but what has remained is the Catholic Church and those in union with it, they have endured and will continue to do so, there will always be the remnant.

Putting aside Private Revelations that have been approved by the Catholic Church, as a Catholic do you believe what the Catholic Church teaches?

 

[jmcrae]

Funnily enough, the way this thread was going I** was** expecting the Spanish Inquisition. . .

And there it is, right on schedule, right after the ‘scripture alone’ . . .

With “Galileo” in the same sentence, even.

(Do any of the people who drag his name up even know what was going on, in his case? I know someone who is a physicist, and he says that if Galileo had treated the Academy of Sciences the way he treated the Church, he’d have been unceremoniously bounced out the door on his head, and nobody would have ever heard of him, because he would never have been published. My acquaintance thinks he’s lucky he only had to deal with the Church - if there’d been an organized scientific community, house arrest with the freedom to invite any guests he wanted over would have looked like a picnic in the park.)

 

[Eireann]

Is this the same Papal authority that ran the Inquisition and put Galileo in prison?

Again I’ll ask in the hope of an answer, do you believe in any of the proclaimed apparitions, and if you do how did you come to that conclusion ?

Also your talking about a spirit or something else appearing to people, the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary at the request of God, shall we not believe in that either ?

Why should we trust the dream of Joseph, the star, how did Elizabeth know that it was the mother of Her Lord coming to visit her ?

There are loads of scenarios, “to those that believe, no explanation is necessary, for those that don’t, no explanation will suffice”.

Off track with the Galileo & inquisition thing, it’s been discussed at length before, were talking about Fatima.

 

[CrossoverManiac]

I’m starting to have my doubts on my previous belief that Fatima was a false vision. I don’t want to commit the unpardonable sin of contributing a work of God to evil, then again, I don’t want to accept Fatima yet. So, I’ll pray about it.

 

[pbaylis]

I think Mary, as an anti-Eve I guess, has a commission to bring the world back to the Lord after the damage caused by the first Eve. I think it is certainly sanctioned and even ordered by God.

Even on earth Mary had significant influence. At the wedding at Cana, Jesus told her flat out that it wasn’t His time yet. But Mary got her way, despite God’s preferred timing of Jesus’ entry into public life. The second occasion was the finding of Jesus in the temple. Jesus was doing God’s will as He saw it and yet he had to give in again to His mother and she was able to drag Him by the scruff of the neck (as it were) back home, where he remained obedient to her.

 

[LilyM]

I’m starting to have my doubts on my previous belief that Fatima was a false vision. I don’t want to commit the unpardonable sin of contributing a work of God to evil, then again, I don’t want to accept Fatima yet. So, I’ll pray about it.

You’re not obliged to accept Fatima - just allow those who DO belive in it the freedom that the Church has allowed them to do so.

 

[Veritas41]

Sort of a side question.

Were there any people at Fatima during the Dancing of the Sun who either did not see anything, or attributed it to something totally natural and coincidental (timing)?

I’m not sure – I’ll have to do some research on that one.

 

[Mijoy2]

I’m not sure – I’ll have to do some research on that one.

Thanks.

I find that using arguments such as “many witnessed (insert event here)” to be one of those arguments people use in thier favor but find reasons to deny same argument if it doesn’t suit thier point.

I’ll give an example. Hank Hanegraaff of Bible Answer Man fame often uses the “fact” that Jesus was seen by as many as 500 people in a single sighting following the Resurrection as an important item of evidence of the death and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Yet Hanegraaff attributes the 70,000 who witnessed the dancing of the sun to some sort of mistake.

I’d be interested to know just how many of the 70,000 either suggest it didn’t happen or was something natural or a lie. I have not been able to find any data on this.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Mary always points towards Jesus as the way to salvation.

Consecration to her Immaculate Heart. Read what it really means and you’ll see, it means converting your heart to the will of her Son.

Fatima is accepted by the Church as true, so is Lordes.

Look at the visionaries of these two events, and look at the live’s they lived as a resultt of having the visions. They were totally commited to following the will of God. Their live’s are a witness to the reality that the visions they received were indeed from heaven.

St. John of the Cross wrote a maxim on things to look for in those who claim to have received visions from heaven. I wish I could remember which maxim.However, from what I remember, the key is the profound transformation of the visionaries life to holiness.

Anyway, I believe in the apparitions of Fatima and Lourdes. In fact, I believe so much in Lourdes that I went there on a pilgrimage.
Jim

 

[Catherine_Grant]

I want to remind our participants of Content Rule 6 as some in the course of this thread seem to have forgotten it:

Do not post material from unapproved private revelations.

Material from unapproved private revelations include:
Visions you’ve had
Messages God asked you to transmit
Messages from Bayside
–>Messages from Medjugorje

If you post material from unapproved private revelations, your account will be subject to the Enforcement Rules, which could include immediate suspension or banning of your account.

 

[Veritas41]

Thanks.

I find that using arguments such as “many witnessed (insert event here)” to be one of those arguments people use in thier favor but find reasons to deny same argument if it doesn’t suit thier point.

I’ll give an example. Hank Hanegraaff of Bible Answer Man fame often uses the “fact” that Jesus was seen by as many as 500 people in a single sighting following the Resurrection as an important item of evidence of the death and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Yet Hanegraaff attributes the 70,000 who witnessed the dancing of the sun to some sort of mistake.

I’d be interested to know just how many of the 70,000 either suggest it didn’t happen or was something natural or a lie. I have not been able to find any data on this.

that’s a good point. here’s something I found that says none of the witnesses are known to have denied the miracle:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun

 

[wcknight]

I would point out to the OP that nothing is accepted in sacred tradition that counters anything in scriptures. AND any verified apparition is examined in light of scriptures and traditions.

IF the Church says it is okay to believe in it. The Chruch is in effect saying the event does NOT contradict scriptures AND it does not contradict any sacred tradition.

It still may or may not be a true happening, but the Church says there is nothing wrong with it.

Personally I accept both Lourdes and Fatima (and Guadalupe as well) as for real… far too many miracles associated with them and far too many conversions come from them. The devil does not lead souls to God, the apparitions of Mary has. So the fruits of these events is more devotion to Christ and God, not less, and more souls saved.

Satan would have us believe that Hell does not exist. Why in the world would he send some demon to call to the fact that it does ???