My Problems With The Church

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TristanCross

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Yes, I’m considering Catholicism. I still have some problems with it, to be honest…

It seems we need to live a perfect life for salvation. That, or constant confession. I don’t get it…Even anger is classified as mortal sin. Looking at the Catholic view, it looks pretty impossible for salvation. Also, wasn’t Christ’s “It is finished” enough? Why do you still sacrifice when the final sacrifice of Christ has occurred? Again, Did He not say it was finished? Also, what about Hebrews 10?

And what about the teaching of little to no salvation outside the Church? Did Jesus not say “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father exept through me”? Not, “The Catholic church is the way the truth and the life, no ond comes to the Father exept through it”?

Thanks. God bless
 
TristanCross said:
Yes, I’m considering Catholicism. I still have some problems with it, to be honest…

It seems we need to live a perfect life for salvation. That, or constant confession. I don’t get it…Even anger is classified as mortal sin. Looking at the Catholic view, it looks pretty impossible for salvation.
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Anger is not a mortal sin, for a sin to be mortal it must be of grave matter. That is the first of the three conditions for a sin to be mortal.

The second is it must be done with full knowledge that is a sin, the third is that is must be done with deliberate consent of the will.
Also, wasn’t Christ’s “It is finished” enough? Why do you still sacrifice when the final sacrifice of Christ has occurred? Again, Did He not say it was finished?
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This is the timelessness of the Eucharistic sacrifice, it is not a new sacrifice, it is a re-presentation of the one Sacrifice of Christ.
Also, what about Hebrews 10?
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You must remember, us Catholics are not sola scriptura. We also have Sacred Tradition. Also we do not interpret the scriptures, the Church does that.
And what about the teaching of little to no salvation outside the Church? Did Jesus not say “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father exept through me”? Not, “The Catholic church is the way the truth and the life, no ond comes to the Father exept through it”?
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Yes, the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, it is the institution that Christ put on earth for our salvation but… That is not to say that we do not have hope that God will save all according to His Mercy, but the only way we know is through the Church.
 
TristanCross said:
Yes, I’m considering Catholicism. I still have some problems with it, to be honest…
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No problem with still needing to learn a few things.
It seems we need to live a perfect life for salvation.
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No one can lead a perfect life, but we are obligated to try our best.
That, or constant confession.
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Confession is a tool Jesus uses to purify and cleanse penitents. Some people need it more than others, yes, but in the end we all need the absolution from sins Jesus provides through the sacrament.
I don’t get it…Even anger is classified as mortal sin.
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Anger is indeed a sin, but I’ve heard from this deacon’s CD that it’s only a mortal sin in certain cases, like when it’s a constant thing the person doesn’t even try to fight.
Looking at the Catholic view, it looks pretty impossible for salvation.
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It appears pretty difficult to attain, I must admit. But didn’t Jesus himself say that we need to pass through “the narrow gate?”
Also, wasn’t Christ’s “It is finished” enough? Why do you still sacrifice when the final sacrifice of Christ has occurred? Again, Did He not say it was finished? Also, what about Hebrews 10?
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“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church…” Col. 1:24

The purpose of uniting our sacrifice with Christ’s is so that we can attain salvation in him. Just as we died with Christ in baptism, we must also participate in his suffering by uniting our own to his.
And what about the teaching of little to no salvation outside the Church? Did Jesus not say “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father exept through me”? Not, “The Catholic church is the way the truth and the life, no ond comes to the Father exept through it”?
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You need to keep in mind a few things. One, any validly baptized Christian is in communion with the church, although people baptized outside of it do have an imperfect relationship with it. Two, there’s the concept of “invincible ignorance,” whereby people are saved outside the Church because they didn’t know any better.
 
I would also add that anger rises to the level of mortal when it is severe or abusive – such as verbal abuse against strangers or family members. So that means anger coupled with insults, with tearing down of character, with threats, with humiliating comments, etc. That’s what Jesus meant by anger being parallel to murder: when it is violence with words, it’s mortal, i.m.o.

Reactive anger/impatience/annoyance leading to rudeness, inconsiderateness, a rashly spoken comment, would be venial, i.m.o., if it does not include the above but embarrasses the doer more than it wounds the object of anger.
 
Hi Tristan,

I’m just going to address your first question, about leading a perfect life.

We have to aim for that and with God’s grace we might end up living a saintly life. That’s the ideal of perfection we have to aim for but fully knowing that only God is perfect and that we can’t achieve it fully in this life. Frequent confession is definitely good and I’ve started to see its fruits in my own case.

Also, belief in Christ does not make us perfect in the sense that we will never again commit a sin. We will and we can even lose our salvation. Conversion happens every day, it is a life-long process.

I’m sure Catholicism seems challenging and there is so much to it. It takes a while to ‘get it’ and many converts realise that being received into the church is just the first step.

I hope this forum will be of help.

God bless!
 
And what about the teaching of little to no salvation outside the Church? Did Jesus not say “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father exept through me”? Not, “The Catholic church is the way the truth and the life, no ond comes to the Father exept through it”?
**Imagine these scenarios:
  1. An Amalekite comes to Moses and said, “I’ve heard all about the wonders your God YHVH has worked for you, and He really is da bomb. But I don’t know about all these Hebrews. So why don’t you give me a copy of this Torah thingy and a sacrificial animal or two, and I’ll just go on my way and do my own thing. After all, why do I need to be part of this nation?”
  2. A Philistine comes to David of Israel and says, “King David, I want to have a personal relationship with you as my lord and king, and most especially do I want you to be my personal king, but I don’t want to have a thing to do with your kingdom.”**
 
Sanctification is an ongoing process not a one time experience.
What a Catholic means by being perfected isn’t merely being without sin but rather being perfected in God’s love. Paul telll us If we have all gifts but have not love we are nothing.
So, the Catholic’s prayer is for God to perfect us in His love because He is love as John told us in his epistles.
 
Scripture tells us we are to “work our salvation out with fear and trembling.” When I left the Catholic church for my 11 year hiatus and began serving the Lord with the Baptists, I never could understand the once saved always saved position as that isn’t working salvation out with fear and trembling.
 
JustaServant said:
Sanctification is an ongoing process not a one time experience.
What a Catholic means by being perfected isn’t merely being without sin but rather being perfected in God’s love. Paul telll us If we have all gifts but have not love we are nothing.
So, the Catholic’s prayer is for God to perfect us in His love because He is love as John told us in his epistles.
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Great points. We are, with God’s help, to grow in faith, hope, and love.
 
TristanCross said:
And what about the teaching of little to no salvation outside the Church? Did Jesus not say “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father exept through me”? Not, “The Catholic church is the way the truth and the life, no ond comes to the Father exept through it”?
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Yes, Jesus did say “No one comes to the Father except through me”. But the way he has chosen to open that way to us is through the Catholic Church. It’s like a painter; **he **paints the painting, but he choses to use a paintbrush. The paintbrush is only the tool used to make the completed product; it doesn’t paint of itself. “Extra eclesium nula salus” could be re-phrased in the positive to mean: “in the Church is everything necessary for salvation.” One of the great things that came out of Vatican II was a better understanding that God has tied salvation to the Sacraments, but He Himself is not bound by them.
 
Hi Tristan. Well you are in close company since most of the converts and reverts on here came into the Church kicking and screaming in resistance.

If not the Catholic Church, what church? If Jesus is the way, do we not need a church at all? Yet, he establishes a Church and still yet he declares that Church “the pillar of truth.” Now let’s repeat what you quoted. “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”? And yet the Church is called by Jesus the pillar of truth. The pillar of Jesus! It upholds the truths that Jesus gave us. The bible is not the Church. The books of the bible were handpicked by the Catholic church nearly 400 years into her existence.

Confession isn’t a burden, it is a gift. It is God giving us an opportunity reconcile with him. God doesn’t need us to confess, he saw what we did with his own eyes. He, in his infinite mercy, gives us a place to come clean. Have you ever been to confession? It is like breathing fresh air for the first time when you walk out of that confessional.
The “faith alone” argument didn’t exist until men invented it. It was not held by the early Christians.

Tristan - it is normal and healthy to question to faith. Test all things in the Lord. You may find that the things you are most hung up on now end up being the things you love most about the faith. I am excited for you and all that you will learn on your journey.
 
Tristan - like anything worth pursuing, holiness is an ongoing process. Not at all impossible, there are 10,000+ canonised Saints, and many more uncanonised (undoubtedly) to prove it to us.

To any newbie runner or aspiring basketball player the idea of competing in a race or a game surely seems daunting and difficult indeed. But newbies all begin the same way - step by step. You find a good coach, begin training, improve day by day, and before you know it you’re out there achieving beyond what you thought yourself capable of.

Jesus’ passion was indeed finished on the Cross, but even He recognised that Calvary was only the beginning, not the end, of the proces of applying the fruits of it to each succeeding generation of humanity.

Which is why He not only spent so much time after His resurrection with the Apostles, and instructed them on the sacraments that would be part of that ongoing unfolding of the salvation story in our lives, but also had to promise that He would ALWAYS be with us - as indeed He is.

In terms of the Church and its relevance to salvation - remember the Church is the Body of Christ. Not only does Paul explicitly identify Christ with the Church as such, so does Christ Himself. On the road to Damascus note He doesn’t ask Saul ‘why do you persecute my Church’, which is exactly what he was doing, but ‘why do you persecute ME’? Now what saves us if not Christ’s Body? 🤷
 
TristanCross said:
Yes, I’m considering Catholicism. I still have some problems with it, to be honest…

It seems we need to live a perfect life for salvation. That, or constant confession. I don’t get it…Even anger is classified as mortal sin. Looking at the Catholic view, it looks pretty impossible for salvation. Also, wasn’t Christ’s “It is finished” enough? Why do you still sacrifice when the final sacrifice of Christ has occurred? Again, Did He not say it was finished? Also, what about Hebrews 10?

And what about the teaching of little to no salvation outside the Church? Did Jesus not say “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father exept through me”? Not, “The Catholic church is the way the truth and the life, no ond comes to the Father exept through it”?

Thanks. God bless
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As a former evangelical minister who had these same questions, I would suggest two things:
  1. Read some books by former Protestants who came into the Catholic Church. I like Scott Hahn’s book on confession–his historical/biblical perspective cuts through the legalism and reveals it as a special grace. (I had trouble accepting the need to go to a priest for absolution.) “The Lamb’s Supper” by Hahn was helpful with understanding transubstantiation. I also like Mark Shea’s book “By What Authority” as he spoke my evangelical language and helped me understand the viability/necessity of Sacred Tradition.
  2. Try to wean yourself away from these forums while you’re in formation–too many opinions and they’re hard to sort out. They can be addictive. While I was studying, I stuck to “Ask an Apologist” and even that was sort of hard.
  3. Try daily Mass, pray the Liturgy of the Hours and basically do what Philippians 4:8 says. Then trust God to show you. These thorny issues can be resolved in you by the Holy Spirit.
God bless.
 
TristanCross said:
Yes, I’m considering Catholicism. I still have some problems with it, to be honest…

It seems we need to live a perfect life for salvation. That, or constant confession. I don’t get it…Even anger is classified as mortal sin. Looking at the Catholic view, it looks pretty impossible for salvation. Also, wasn’t Christ’s “It is finished” enough? Why do you still sacrifice when the final sacrifice of Christ has occurred? Again, Did He not say it was finished? Also, what about Hebrews 10?

And what about the teaching of little to no salvation outside the Church? Did Jesus not say “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father exept through me”? Not, “The Catholic church is the way the truth and the life, no ond comes to the Father exept through it”?

Thanks. God bless
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Having been on both sides of the fence myself, I am currently attending a non-denominational bible only christian church. Along with your above assertions, one of the main reason I have once again abandoned practicing the Catholic faith in favor of biblical christianity is because of Galatians 1:8-9 which states:

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! "

The New Testament where the gospel was preached looks nothing whatsoever like a catechism of catholic practice. I cannot in good conscience follow a different gospel.

As a Catholic, my practice favored the Traditional Latin, where at lease the Mass was practiced in such a way that made sense from a catholic standpoint. To me, the Novus Ordo Mass bears no resemblance to either biblical christianity or catholicism!

I guess that makes me a protestant traditional catholic!
😃
 
TLM08 said:
Having been on both sides of the fence myself, I am currently attending a non-denominational bible only christian church. Along with your above assertions, one of the main reason I have once again abandoned practicing the Catholic faith in favor of biblical christianity is because of Galatians 1:8-9 which states:

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! "

The New Testament where the gospel was preached looks nothing whatsoever like a catechism of catholic practice. I cannot in good conscience follow a different gospel.

As a Catholic, my practice favored the Traditional Latin, where at lease the Mass was practiced in such a way that made sense from a catholic standpoint. To me, the Novus Ordo Mass bears no resemblance to either biblical christianity or catholicism!

I guess that makes me a protestant traditional catholic!
😃
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Being that Tristin is a Protestant, she knows nothing about the Novus Ordo/TLM issue. So it is useless to even bring that up.
I have glanced however at your posting history, particularily the various threads you have started. And I have a feeling your problems with the CC find their roots in something besides the doctrinal.
If that’s what floats your boat fine. But this part of the forum is for in-house discussions among Catholics regarding the changes with the CC since Vatican 2. If you wish to discuss ‘problems with the Church’, go to the apologetics side and do so.
Thank you.
 
TLM08 said:
Having been on both sides of the fence myself, I am currently attending a non-denominational bible only christian church. Along with your above assertions, one of the main reason I have once again abandoned practicing the Catholic faith in favor of biblical christianity is because of Galatians 1:8-9 which states:

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! "

The New Testament where the gospel was preached looks nothing whatsoever like a catechism of catholic practice. I cannot in good conscience follow a different gospel.

As a Catholic, my practice favored the Traditional Latin, where at lease the Mass was practiced in such a way that made sense from a catholic standpoint. To me, the Novus Ordo Mass bears no resemblance to either biblical christianity or catholicism!

I guess that makes me a protestant traditional catholic!
😃
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If you’re not Roman Catholic then kindly change the religion named in your profile to accurately reflect your beliefs, unless you get your jollies from deliberately pretending to be something you’re not.
 
JustaServant said:
Being that Tristin is a Protestant, she knows nothing about the Novus Ordo/TLM issue. So it is useless to even bring that up.

…this part of the forum is for in-house discussions among Catholics regarding the changes with the CC since Vatican 2.
Thank you.
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Are you serious? The Novus Ordo/TLM is one of the very foundational issues regarding the post Vatican II changes!

:eek:
 
LilyM said:
If you’re not Roman Catholic then kindly change the religion named in your profile to accurately reflect your beliefs, unless you get your jollies from deliberately pretending to be something you’re not.
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I was born and raised Catholic. It was where I first learned about Jesus. So please do not make such assumptions … but consider it done.
😉
 
JustaServant said:
Being that Tristin is a Protestant, she knows nothing about the Novus Ordo/TLM issue. So it is useless to even bring that up.
I have glanced however at your posting history, particularily the various threads you have started. And I have a feeling your problems with the CC find their roots in something besides the doctrinal.
If that’s what floats your boat fine. But this part of the forum is for in-house discussions among Catholics regarding the changes with the CC since Vatican 2. If you wish to discuss ‘problems with the Church’, go to the apologetics side and do so.
Thank you.
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I didn’t realize that the forum was for Catholics to discuss the changes with the Catholic Church since Vatican II. That’s a little more specific than the description given for this forum by CAF. But good. I have a question after reading so much here.
 
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