My Problems With The Church

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Yes, it is all very unsettling to see how the Word of God is twisted by (well meaning) modern apologists in order to support errors that are many hundreds of years old. John 6 simply does not support a literal interpretation of the real presence. After the Last Supper, Jesus himself said is was speaking figuratively:
  • "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. * John 16:25
I pray that I never abandon Christ and live like a heathen ever again. Only Christ living through me can keep me from that. On my own strength I am desparately weak.
God Bless.
:cool:
Again you misinterpret scripture. He ** speaking figuratively at the last supper. This is what happens with private interpretation, it always leads to error.**
 
Yes, it is all very unsettling to see how the Word of God is twisted by (well meaning) modern apologists in order to support errors that are many hundreds of years old. John 6 simply does not support a literal interpretation of the real presence. After the Last Supper, Jesus himself said is was speaking figuratively:
  • "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. * John 16:25
I pray that I never abandon Christ and live like a heathen ever again. Only Christ living through me can keep me from that. On my own strength I am desparately weak.
God Bless.
:cool:
Again you misinterpret scripture. He was not speaking figuratively of Himself at the last supper. This is what happens with private interpretation, it always leads to
misunderstanding and error.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Yes, it is all very unsettling to see how the Word of God is twisted by (well meaning) modern apologists in order to support errors that are many hundreds of years old. John 6 simply does not support a literal interpretation of the real presence. After the Last Supper, Jesus himself said is was speaking figuratively:
  • "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. * John 16:25
I pray that I never abandon Christ and live like a heathen ever again. Only Christ living through me can keep me from that. On my own strength I am desparately weak.
God Bless.
:cool:
I do not understand your objection. Are you saying, then, that Jesus never spoke literally prior to John 16:25? I doubt you would deny that Jesus was speaking literally in places like John 13:21 where He says “‘Amen, amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me.’”. Or when He says those great words so often in the Gospels “Go now, your sins are forgiven”. Does He mean that only figuaritively too? Or how about earlier in that same chapter when Jesus said “‘I have told you this so that you may not fall away. / They will expel you from the synagogues; in fact, the hour is coming when everyone who kills you will think he is offering worship to God.’” (John 16:1,2).

I also would like to know if you think that St. Justin Martyr is one of those “modern apologists” who twist the Word of God?

I’m sorry if this next part seems a bit bold, but I also pray that you will not “live like a heathen ever again”, but do you blame the Catholic Church for that?
 
Yes, it is all very unsettling to see how the Word of God is twisted by (well meaning) modern apologists in order to support errors that are many hundreds of years old. John 6 simply does not support a literal interpretation of the real presence. After the Last Supper, Jesus himself said is was speaking figuratively:
  • "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. * John 16:25
Once again my friend, the text doesn’t say what you’re claiming it does. Jesus NEVER says ANYWHERE that he was speaking figuratively in John 6. And neither does anyone else in the Bible.

You’re reaching again, because you simply don’t want to believe in the Real Presence anymore. This isn’t even about differing interpretations…This is the third time that you’ve outright made a false claim that the Bible says something which it actually doesn’t.

And these are the kinds of things that anyone who has 10 seconds to fact-check and access to a Bible can verify and correct you on, which makes it all the more odd that you’d make the claims in the first place.
 
I do not understand your objection. Are you saying, then, that Jesus never spoke literally prior to John 16:25? I doubt you would deny that Jesus was speaking literally in places like John 13:21 where He says “‘Amen, amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me.’”. Or when He says those great words so often in the Gospels “Go now, your sins are forgiven”. Does He mean that only figuaritively too? Or how about earlier in that same chapter when Jesus said “‘I have told you this so that you may not fall away. / They will expel you from the synagogues; in fact, the hour is coming when everyone who kills you will think he is offering worship to God.’” (John 16:1,2).

I also would like to know if you think that St. Justin Martyr is one of those “modern apologists” who twist the Word of God?

I’m sorry if this next part seems a bit bold, but I also pray that you will not “live like a heathen ever again”, but do you blame the Catholic Church for that?
Or St Ignatius of Antioch who said, “where the Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” and in his letter to the Smyrnean,Chapter 7,
“Let us stand aloof from such heretics
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because** they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ**, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. …]. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.”
 
It should also be mentioned that the Real Presence is also believed by others than the Catholic Church. We can’t all be wrong. ( Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, etc. )

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem…Sh’ma O Yisroel, Adonai Elienhu, Adonai Echod…
 
…and pretty much all of Christianity without exception until about 400-500 years ago.
 
We are not to follow anyone’s teachings blindly. The Bible itself encourages us to search the scriptures to confirm the truth and expose errant teachings. The Bereans were even given praise for checking the teachings of the apostle Paul himself!
Oddly, Catholics are not allowed to do this.
Oh brother!!
While the teaching of the Catholic Church is that the host literally becomes the real physical body and blood of Our Lord, the Bible simply does not support this.
🙂
So the Orthodox got it wrong too?
 
Rather than making the snarky remarks I’m tempted to about how Protestantism contradicts itself and the Bible, I’ll join our Lady in her goal of brining the world to the Authentic Faith in Christ her son.
 
We are not to follow anyone’s teachings blindly. The Bible itself encourages us to search the scriptures to confirm the truth and expose errant teachings. The Bereans were even given praise for checking the teachings of the apostle Paul himself! Oddly, Catholics are not allowed to do this

“Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” Acts 17:11

While the teaching of the Catholic Church is that the host literally becomes the real physical body and blood of Our Lord, the Bible simply does not support this.
🙂
Hello, a great deal was said to TLM already but I wanted to clarify. I’m not sure which bible translation you have TLM, but the New American Bible I am holding does not say what you have written.

“These Jews were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all willingness and examined the scriptures daily to determine whether these things were so.” Acts 17:11

My first comment is that if I do not accept the bible blindly, then I cannot accept your interpretation that they were “checking the teachings of the apostle Paul himself!” First, the quote you have, which is definitely not the same translation I have word or spirit, does not imply that Paul is in error. Instead, it is like a bright science student first hearing a lecture on black holes. They are excited and are checking all sorts of references to discover this “black hole” concept. If you read into it they were checking for error, you interpreted the text yourself as an authority. Obviously I do not need to believe your interpretation if you doubt a whole scholarly evaluation in the Magisterium.

Furthermore, the translation you have appears to add as well as alter text. First, the version I have claim “these Jews” not Beroean Jews. In particular if you look at the context both in the scripture and the history, it was in reference to a particular synagogue in Beroea, not all of the Jews in the area. In addition, the text I have does not state they are examining St. Paul’s scriptures. Lastly, scriptures here refers to the Old Testament because the Scripture you have now, including the Acts of the Apostle were not written in its entirety yet. In fact, the Gospels, according to historians were written just before 70 AD to 150 AD. St. Paul died by 63-64 AD, so they were not referring to our NT nor to the letters of Peter and Paul found in the NT.

Lastly, in the line immediately after what you quoted: “Many of them became believers, as did not a few of the influencial Greek women and men.” (Acts 17: 12). They were learning, they sought evidence in the OT as described by Paul of who the Messiah will be and what will be signs fo the Messiah. Then they came to believe.

If you cannot believe in Apostolic succession, you can make up all sorts of interpretations and use all different translations, but if you are arguing against the truth, you’re arguments will not hold water. Catholics are called to develop their consciences and to use reason together with faith. Anything short will be problematic for the individual, but the Church will survive despite individuals.
 
Hello, a great deal was said to TLM already but I wanted to clarify. I’m not sure which bible translation you have TLM, but the New American Bible I am holding does not say what you have written.

“These Jews were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all willingness and examined the scriptures daily to determine whether these things were so.” Acts 17:11

My first comment is that if I do not accept the bible blindly, then I cannot accept your interpretation that they were “checking the teachings of the apostle Paul himself!” First, the quote you have, which is definitely not the same translation I have word or spirit, does not imply that Paul is in error. Instead, it is like a bright science student first hearing a lecture on black holes. They are excited and are checking all sorts of references to discover this “black hole” concept. If you read into it they were checking for error, you interpreted the text yourself as an authority. Obviously I do not need to believe your interpretation if you doubt a whole scholarly evaluation in the Magisterium.

Furthermore, the translation you have appears to add as well as alter text. First, the version I have claim “these Jews” not Beroean Jews. In particular if you look at the context both in the scripture and the history, it was in reference to a particular synagogue in Beroea, not all of the Jews in the area. In addition, the text I have does not state they are examining St. Paul’s scriptures. Lastly, scriptures here refers to the Old Testament because the Scripture you have now, including the Acts of the Apostle were not written in its entirety yet. In fact, the Gospels, according to historians were written just before 70 AD to 150 AD. St. Paul died by 63-64 AD, so they were not referring to our NT nor to the letters of Peter and Paul found in the NT.

Lastly, in the line immediately after what you quoted: “Many of them became believers, as did not a few of the influencial Greek women and men.” (Acts 17: 12). They were learning, they sought evidence in the OT as described by Paul of who the Messiah will be and what will be signs fo the Messiah. Then they came to believe.

If you cannot believe in Apostolic succession, you can make up all sorts of interpretations and use all different translations, but if you are arguing against the truth, you’re arguments will not hold water. Catholics are called to develop their consciences and to use reason together with faith. Anything short will be problematic for the individual, but the Church will survive despite individuals.
Well said, StillWondering. As I have said many times, private interpretation leads to mis-understanding which leads to error and eventually to heresy. It seems that this is where
TLM is heading. I pray that the Holy Spirit will open his eyes very wide to see The Truth.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Well said, StillWondering. As I have said many times, private interpretation leads to mis-understanding which leads to error and eventually to heresy. It seems that this is where
TLM is heading. I pray that the Holy Spirit will open his eyes very wide to see The Truth.
My own “private interpretation” of the whole issue of Private Interpretation by Protestants is that it is rarely the case.

My personal introduction to the Catholic Faith was via anti-catholic liturature and “preaching” All I knew was my father and grandparents generations were alive because they were among the Jews who escaped the National Socialists because Catholics hid them and produced forged documents which allowed them to immigrate to the New World. Quotas against Jews existed barring Jews from the USA at the time, but appearing to be Catholic based on paperwork, they were allowed in. No pressure was put on them to convert, as evidenced by my parents and grandparents converting after myself.

That is sort of a long introduction to my main point. I’ve heard the same Insistance and same doctrine, many times word for word with the claims that individual Protestants have “Searched the Scriptures on their own” and come up with some of the standard errors they perpetuate. I’ve also seen on the various “Evangelical” TV shows, these same ideas parroted. I’ve accompanied friends and co-workers to Anti-Catholic “Lectures” hearing the same tripe about how Catholics are forbidden to read the Scriptures for themselves, and heard how “Wonderful, and Spirit Filled” Minister/ Pastor/ Apostle/ Evangelist X, Y, or Z is. And seen many followers of these men (sometimes women) who teach Protestant doctrines invented in the past 200 to 500 years being treated as if they received the new doctrines directly from the Throne of God. "Well the Lord laid this burden on my heart, and revealed to me (what he has held secret all these centuries).

From “What the Lord has laid on my heart.” to use a Protestant phrase that really means nothing… I have met very few Protestants who have never searched the Scriptures unaided by anyone but the Holy Spirit, but have always been “formed” in the mold of one or another Protestant teacher, or leader. Just my little mite, tossed into the collection basket.
 
As an addendum to my previous posting. It is also easy for Protestants to deny their heritage, by telling us, “Well I’m just a believer. I may go to a Baptist, or Methodist or whatever Church. But I don’t have to believe what others believe.” or “There are true believers everywhere.” In that manner, someone who was their “Brother in Christ” who later contradicts them can be labeled as, “Well he was never really saved.” when they disagree with the “Private Interpretation” which they have been led to believe by a Protestant author or Preacher.

“But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15
Funny how the head of the household made a decision for his household, and not each individual making a “Personal” commitment. Joshua offers us a prefigurement of the duties of a Catholic parent to baptize and raise his children in the Faith. Just as a parent in Israel has the obligation to make the covenant for his sons at the brit olem. But that is just my “Personal Interpretation”
 
You go from Catholic to heathen to Protestant to Catholic to Catholic traditional (SSPX?) to Protestant…
Um…you can’t see anything wrong with that? :confused:
The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion, and you seem very confused. Even worse, you want to become a ‘champion’ of whatever group you are currently associated with. With a resume like that, I wouldn’t hire you.
I pray you settle whatever the real issues are.
 
Protestants are the original “Cafeteria Catholics” who pick and chose what suits them, or what they “think” they agree with. Although the scriptures ( Bible ) hold the truth, just reading them alone ( sola scriptura ) does not reveal the fullness of the truth. The Catholic
( Universal ) Church, both Eastern and Western, is the only one that is authorized by Jesus Christ to teach the fullness of the truth.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
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