My protestant friend asked me, "Aren't we all saints in Gods eyes?"

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I had mentioned to him that protestants (I believe this) are truly deprived of the numerous stories of saints over the 2000 years of the Church’s existence.

I mentioned to him that it seems to me that many protestants (notice I said many not all, like Baptist, evangelical, etc etc) believe it is following the Catholic Church’s doctrine of sinful idolatry to research any of the saints. Many of them have no clue about Saint Anthony or Saint Francis De Sales.

I was telling my friend that there are Saints for every person’s struggle. I could be wrong, but I believe there is at least one vice that we fall victim to, or enslaved by. I said to him it is sad to me that you will not even read about Saint Francis of Assisi. He will not even look at his actions.

He then made a comment that I believe many protestants share. He asked, are we not all Saints in the eyes of Lord if we are true believers? I said, NO I do not believe we are all Saints in the eyes of the Lord.

I asked him if he felt comfortable about declaring himself a Saint. I asked if he learned the lesson from the last supper. Peter openly declared he would never betray, and one leaned on the chest of Jesus. One was destined (as a result) to deny him, and the other had the grace to be at the foot. All those who exalt will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted.

Here is an example of a Saint, in case some of you want to declare yourselves a Saint.

The Max Kolbe Story . It is short…

youtube.com/watch?v=la93bt3samo
 
I suspect that you & your friend are using the same word with different meanings.

You are talking about the saints who are in heaven. He is talking about saints - holy people - on earth. St. Paul (I believe - I’m writing this off the top of my head) referred to many of his fellow Christians as saints.

When I was a Baptist, missionaries were held up as good examples similar to the way we hold up canonized saints.

Remember that most Protestants believe it is impossible to communicate in any way with “dead people.” What they don’t realize is that all the “dead” saints are truly alive in Heaven with God. If God wants to let the saints hear our prayers & communicate with us, there is nothing to stop Him.
 
I believe we are all called to be great saints…whether or not we attain it during our time on earth or in purgatory is the difference. Only saints can enter heaven. Not sure if this is Catholic teaching or not. Does anyone know?
 
Bonnie said:
I suspect that you & your friend are using the same word with different meanings.

You are talking about the saints who are in heaven. He is talking about saints - holy people - on earth. St. Paul (I believe - I’m writing this off the top of my head) referred to many of his fellow Christians as saints.

When I was a Baptist, missionaries were held up as good examples similar to the way we hold up canonized saints.

Remember that most Protestants believe it is impossible to communicate in any way with “dead people.” What they don’t realize is that all the “dead” saints are truly alive in Heaven with God. If God wants to let the saints hear our prayers & communicate with us, there is nothing to stop Him.
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True enough. However, we should never be in a place where we declare ourselves Saints.

It seems the TRUE Saints, pretty much consider themselves wretches among wretches. Meaning, there is a sense of perfect humility that they are exalted through the Holy Spirit.

Again, I am always weary of anyone that declares themselves Saints. Maybe they are.

However, when we read the actual lives of the actual Saints, we tend to get very humbled…if we were ever in the frame of mind that we are at the status or Sainthood.

Paul even says if I boast, I shall boast of my weakness. However, for those that exalt themselves, He put them in their place…with this verse.

2 Corinthians 11:16-33
New International Version (NIV)
Paul Boasts About His Sufferings

16 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then tolerate me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting. 17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. 18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19 You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. 21 To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!

Whatever anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
Again, I am always weary of anyone that declares themselves Saints. Maybe they are.
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I know what you mean. Saint-in-the-making would be more true. But it is fairly common, at least in some Protestant churches, for people to call themselves saints. Also the Latter Day Saints.
 
Well, how did Saint Paul refer to some of the churches?

kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Saints/

The saints are not exclusively those already in Heaven. Saint Paul calls many of the living Christians “saints”.

The saints are all the faithful who desire to be with God, one with God, and perfect as God is - that is, all those who wish to be “sanctified” - which is the definition of what it means to be a Saint. To be sanctified means to be “set apart” or “consecrated” to God, who is “holy, holy, holy”. It is to become less like the world and more like and in line with God.

The canonised Saints are those we know to be saints. We cannot be sure anyone else, even ourselves, are Saints and not fooling ourselves. But it is something all living Christians want to - or should want to :rolleyes: - aspire to.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p5.htm

As per the catechism:
946 After confessing “the holy catholic Church,” the Apostles’ Creed adds “the communion of saints.” In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?"479 The communion of saints is the Church.
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Well since the English word saint is a translation of the Greek hagios, derived from the verb hagiazo, which means “to set apart”, “to sanctify” or “to make holy”, in a real sense all born again Christians are saints. Everyone who is a member of the Church (ekklēsia, those that are “called out”) have been set apart and made holy for the will of God.

This is the context of Acts 9:13, “But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints (lit. “holy ones”) at Jerusalem.”

Or 1 Corinthians 1:2, “To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints (lit. “holy people”) together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours.”

So all Christians are called out of the world to be “holy people,” sanctified in Christ. This is what Protestants mean when we refer to a body of Christians on earth as "saints.

By the way, I’ve never been told that it was wrong or forbidden to read about or take examples from the lives of Catholic saints. I wouldn’t pray to one, but there is nothing wrong with reading about one’s life and deeds to draw inspiration and encouragement.
 
TarkanAttila said:
Well, how did Saint Paul refer to some of the churches?

kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Saints/

The saints are not exclusively those already in Heaven. Saint Paul calls many of the living Christians “saints”.

The saints are all the faithful who desire to be with God, one with God, and perfect as God is - that is, all those who wish to be “sanctified” - which is the definition of what it means to be a Saint. To be sanctified means to be “set apart” or “consecrated” to God, who is “holy, holy, holy”. It is to become less like the world and more like and in line with God.

The canonised Saints are those we know to be saints. We cannot be sure anyone else, even ourselves, are Saints and not fooling ourselves. But it is something all living Christians want to - or should want to :rolleyes: - aspire to.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p5.htm

As per the catechism:
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I would still refrain from declaring ourselves Saints here on earth. Yes I would.

That is my suggestion.

Anyone that exalts themselves shall be humbled.

Peter declared he would never betray, and because he exalted himself to sainthood, he was then destined to be humbled.

Read it, know it, live it.
 
Saint has more than one meaning. I learned this in school. In one sense, it means any Christian. Then there is the other sense, those in heaven. And another: the canonized.
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
I had mentioned to him that protestants (I believe this) are truly deprived of the numerous stories of saints over the 2000 years of the Church’s existence.

I mentioned to him that it seems to me that many protestants (notice I said many not all, like Baptist, evangelical, etc etc) believe it is following the Catholic Church’s doctrine of sinful idolatry to research any of the saints. Many of them have no clue about Saint Anthony or Saint Francis De Sales.

I was telling my friend that there are Saints for every person’s struggle. I could be wrong, but I believe there is at least one vice that we fall victim to, or enslaved by. I said to him it is sad to me that you will not even read about Saint Francis of Assisi. He will not even look at his actions.

He then made a comment that I believe many protestants share. He asked, are we not all Saints in the eyes of Lord if we are true believers? I said, NO I do not believe we are all Saints in the eyes of the Lord.

I asked him if he felt comfortable about declaring himself a Saint. I asked if he learned the lesson from the last supper. Peter openly declared he would never betray, and one leaned on the chest of Jesus. One was destined (as a result) to deny him, and the other had the grace to be at the foot. All those who exalt will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted.

Here is an example of a Saint, in case some of you want to declare yourselves a Saint.

The Max Kolbe Story . It is short…

youtube.com/watch?v=la93bt3samo
Click to expand...
It’s common enough for Christians in Evangelical communities to refer to each other as “saints.” I think it’s a different perception of what the term “saint” means.
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
I would still refrain from declaring ourselves Saints here on earth. Yes I would.

That is my suggestion.

Anyone that exalts themselves shall be humbled.

Peter declared he would never betray, and because he exalted himself to sainthood, he was then destined to be humbled.

Read it, know it, live it.
Click to expand...
As you will.

One commentary I read (IIRC) said that Saint Paul was not equating the saints here with the Saints in Heaven, but rather, by calling them “saints”, he was urging them to their final destiny - to be Saints. To be “perfect as our Heavenly Father is”.

You are not at all required to say you are a Saint. But it is not necessarily incorrect to say, either, of the Christian striving to live the Christian life.

I mean, I understand what you mean. It would be wrong to equate ourselves with the canonised Saints. That’s why I don’t and you don’t say any of us is a “Saint”, because that word means something very different to most Catholics.

Nevertheless, it is not technically incorrect, any more than calling a priest “Father” is, even though it may irritate the Protestant who fears we may be equating the priest with the Father.
 
Well, the word “saint” being used to describe “true believers” is perfectly fine, because that implies that the believer is justified by God and is therefore “made righteous” before him.

Capital S saints, in our colloquial use, is generally reserved for extraordinary Christians like St Francis, but your friend is right in what he says too.

As for me, I do remember and Mark the saints, but the practice of asking S. ANthony to find your keys or S. Joseph to sell your house does not belong to any legitimate expression of the Christian faith.
 
CatholicKnight3,
Your friend asked the following… Question: "Aren’t we all saints in Gods eyes?"
Answer: God has already given us the answer to this precise line of reasoning through His prophet, Malachi. The answer is NO. In fact, merely asking such a question is wearisome (tiresome) to the Lord. The Prophet Malachi said (Chapter 2:17): “You have wearied the LORD with your words, yet you say, ‘How have we wearied him?’ By your saying, ‘Every evildoer is good in the sight of the LORD, And he is pleased with him’; or else, ‘Where is the just God?’”

**WhiteOnyx, **
To answer your earlier question… It is Catholic teaching that because Christ gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom of heaven and all authority to loose and bind “on earth as in heaven,” it is Peter and each of his successors throughout history who have the authority to definitively determine who is in heaven. For that same reason the Catholic Church must formally declare whether someone is a “Saint” and this determination is forever binding in heaven. Remember that when Christ gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom of heaven, he also told Peter that “whatesoever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven; whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven” (different translations obviously vary the phrasing slightly). Peter is the head of Christ’s Church on earth, as appointed by Christ who remains head of the Church in heaven. Peter holds the “keys to the Kingdom of heaven,” however, it was our Risen Christ in heaven who in His own Revelation (Chapter 1:18) said “I hold the keys to death and the netherworld.” Because of this difference in authority, we cannot say that Christ’s Church on earth can determine who is definitively in the netherworld (a.k.a. “hell”), but because Peter’s successors only hold “the keys to the Kingdom of heaven” it can positively state who is in heaven - these people are called “Saints.” I recently shared a document on another CAF thread from one parish in Easter of this year that explains “Indulgences” (a little bit off topic for this thread), however, I believe that same document does a very good job of explaining Catholic teachings about the Saints. I borrowed my distinctions in this paragraph from that document. Here’s the link to that document: saintgerard.org/graphics/UploadFile/582/13204/what_are_indulgences_.pdf.

Christ said to Peter: “Blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. Therefore, I say to you, you are Peter (meaning rock) and upon this rock I will build my Church.” Some non-Catholics claim that because Peter means “rock” or “stone” or “pebble” (as a “small rock”) and the apostles where standing in a rocky setting, Christ was not talking about Peter, himself, as the foundation upon which His Church would be built. However, this faulty logic falls apart when Christ clearly states shortly thereafter (see Matthew 16:17-19): “I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of heaven.” I know of no inanimate rock that makes use of keys! Humans use keys! Additionally, these same people overlook Peter’s own apostolic witness to what it means to be a “rock” or “stone.” See the beginning verses of 1 Peter, Chapter 2.

Calling people “Saints” - it’s not a matter of semantics, but a matter of authority.
Saint Paul and the rest of the apostles (in addition to Peter) were also given the authority (at a later point in time by Christ) to loosen and bind on earth as in heaven. This was first stated by Christ to Peter, individually, and later stated by Christ to Peter with all the other apostles together as a group. As a result, Saint Paul, among the apostles, has the right (has the authority) to reference specific people he wrote to as “Saints” because that authority was granted to him by Christ. We, on the other hand, have not been granted that authority by Christ “to bind and loose in heaven as on earth,” therefore we (individually) are not in any position to declare or call someone a Saint. Unless someone reading this posting is one of the twelve apostles or the living successor to Saint Peter on earth, you don’t have the authority to call anyone a “Saint” because Christ hasn’t given you that authority to “loose in heaven as on earth.” So there’s zero need to debate the semantics of Saint Paul calling someone a “Saint” versus someone else who you and I might talk to calling another person a “Saint” (odds are very good that person we’re talking to is not one of the twelve apostles and is not the living successor to Saint Peter on earth - namely, the Pope). We, who lack this necessary authority, confidently call specific people “Saints” only because the successor to Peter calls them “Saints.”

Sirach23v27
 
Matthew 27:52
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Acts 9:13
But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem;

Acts 9:32
Peter’s Ministry ] Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.

Saints were just Christians practicing the faith. As time has gone on and the church has recognized some as great examples of the faith they move into your meaning.
 
This little ditty may lower the tone of the discussion, but it does show the difference between Saints and saints. I heard this many years ago when I was still a Protestant.

To live above with the Saints we love,
Ah, that is the purest glory.
To live below with the saints we know,
Now, that is another story!
 
Bonnie said:
This little ditty may lower the tone of the discussion, but it does show the difference between Saints and saints. I heard this many years ago when I was still a Protestant.

To live above with the Saints we love,
Ah, that is the purest glory.
To live below with the saints we know,
Now, that is another story!
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I don’t think that has lowered the tone at all! Thanks very much. It is important to remember that all saints are sinners, who are only made righteous before God because Christ died for them on the Cross. Without Jesus, even the most wonderful saint is dead in his sins.
 
Bonnie said:
This little ditty may lower the tone of the discussion, but it does show the difference between Saints and saints. I heard this many years ago when I was still a Protestant.

To live above with the Saints we love,
Ah, that is the purest glory.
To live below with the saints we know,
Now, that is another story!
Click to expand...
Well put - and so succinctly! 👍
 
What to take from my over all point is each one of us ought to be very careful with how we label ouselves to each other.

Lower case saint or upper case Saint is not the point.

Christ says all of those who exalt themselves will be humbled. Let is consider this lesson.
Luke chapter 18:9-14

9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Luke 14:11
For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

What does all of this mean? It means those that truly think they are true saints in the eyes of the Lord, ought not boast that they are.

As for “praying to saints.” Well, we as Catholics affirm Christs very words when He says those who die in Him, though they are dead, yet shall they live. In other words we be assured that the Saints are alive in heaven and according to the visions as seen by John in Revelation 5:8 Saints are certainly making prayers with the angels in the form of incense.

My over all point is we should be careful with how we present ourselves in public. One is a humble way. Boasting of our weakness as Paul says. (That type of boasting often disarms people and therefore they tend to listen better.) Just be ready to be humbled if you exalt yourself.

Be ready. Every time I have boasted (done this a lot) I have been knocked down in very humbling ways. Do not make those mistakes. Like Peter when he declared he would never betray. At those very words, he destined himself to be humbled.
 
It was posted earlier that Peter was given the authority to loosen and bind. I think we are all charged with this. To the extent we do not forgive we too will be bound. The difference is the perpetrator does not need our forgiveness only honest repentance.
 
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