My protestant friends

[grandfather]

Point to something, somewhere, in the early councils, or the ECF’s, that states the presence of our Lord in the Eucharist is symbolic, or merely spiritual.
Point to something, somewhere, in the early councils, or the ECF’'s, that claims that the pope has universal jurisdiction, or is infallible ex cathedra. By what authority, without the benefit of a truly ecumenical council, as was practiced by the early Church and is not now practiced by Rome, does the pope make claims such as this?

The authority of the early Church was in the councils of all the bishops, not just one. The “authority” issue is easily a question for one bishop, even the one in Rome, on his own as it is for the Lutheran confessions. Division of the Church brings the entire issue of “authority” into play for all communions, triumphalism by any of them notwithstanding.

Jon

You will find that in the controversies that arose in the early Church such as the iconoclast heresy in the east, that the bishops of the east appealed to Rome to settle them.

We point to not only this history, but Jesus’s words to Peter in scripture. He gave Him the keys to His kingdom, making him His prime minister. We point to this authority earlier prefigured in salvation history, the keys worn by the prime minister symbolizing his office and authority to govern in the king’s place when the king was not present.

His words to Peter are unique, singling Him out, the rock, do you love me, feed my sheep, etc.

When the center of the Roman empire moved to Constantinople there was a debate to also make the bishop of that city the head of the Church, since that city was the new center of authority in the civil sphere. Whether or not this was the right thing to do is irrelevant. Why would such a debate take place if it was not recognized by all the Church that the see of Peter had unique authority?

This is history, not theology.

Recently and possibly still, there are three men claiming authority over the Orthodox Church in Ukraine. There is the man obedient to the Russians appointed by Moscow, one to the Greeks, and a Ukranian who has declared the Ukranian Orthodox Church to be autocephalis, self heading. How many head can a body have?

As far as Luterans go, to claim their structure of governance is anything like the early Church is preposterous. They don’t have orders. Luther’s core doctrine sola scriptura says all authority is in scripture. There is none left for the Church, and this claim to authority is the cause of denominationalism, each separated group claiming the Bible as their authority and right to exist and call themselves church. Denominationalism unleashed by this false doctrine is the cause of the disintegration of Christian culture. A house divided against itself surely will fall. It is accepted as the status quo now, but direct disobedience to Christ the King, who all the denominations claim as their head and owing obedience. This chaos, this religious anarchy that has opened the door to the diabolical forces of anti-religion to allow them to gain power over our culture is attributable to one source, the spark that lit the inferno.

 

[JonNC]

=grandfather;8977123]You will find that in the controversies that arose in the early Church such as the iconoclast heresy in the east, that the bishops of the east appealed to Rome to settle them.

Yes, indeed they did. That is not evidence that they belieed in universal jurisdiction, much less infallibility ex cathedra. How often do they do this now that there is division, which is my point regarding authority.

We point to not only this history, but Jesus’s words to Peter in scripture. He gave Him the keys to His kingdom, making him His prime minister. We point to this authority earlier prefigured in salvation history, the keys worn by the prime minister symbolizing his office and authority to govern in the king’s place when the king was not present.

His words to Peter are unique, singling Him out, the rock, do you love me, feed my sheep, etc.

And neither is this.

When the center of the Roman empire moved to Constantinople there was a debate to also make the bishop of that city the head of the Church, since that city was the new center of authority in the civil sphere. Whether or not this was the right thing to do is irrelevant. Why would such a debate take place if it was not recognized by all the Church that the see of Peter had unique authority?

Unique position, of course.

Recently and possibly still, there are three men claiming authority over the Orthodox Church in Ukraine. There is the man obedient to the Russians appointed by Moscow, one to the Greeks, and a Ukranian who has declared the Ukranian Orthodox Church to be autocephalis, self heading. How many head can a body have?

There is one head, the Christ. But you are making my point. Authority is at issue.

As far as Luterans go, to claim their structure of governance is anything like the early Church is preposterous.

I don’t recall making such a claim.

They don’t have orders.

Of course we do. They may not be viewed in the same way as Catholicism. that doesn’t mean we don’t have them.

Luther’s core doctrine sola scriptura says all authority is in scripture. There is none left for the Church, and this claim to authority is the cause of denominationalism, each separated group claiming the Bible as their authority and right to exist and call themselves church.

Please source this from the Confessions.

Denominationalism unleashed by this false doctrine is the cause of the disintegration of Christian culture. A house divided against itself surely will fall. It is accepted as the status quo now, but direct disobedience to Christ the King, who all the denominations claim as their head and owing obedience. This chaos, this religious anarchy that has opened the door to the diabolical forces of anti-religion to allow them to gain power over our culture is attributable to one source, the spark that lit the inferno.

I couldn’t agree more.

Jon

 

[grandfather]

Please source this from the Confessions.

This is what Lutherans say themselves of their doctrines in general including on scripture claiming Luther as its source.

mb-soft.com/believe/text/lutheran.htm

 

[JonNC]

This is what Lutherans say themselves of their doctrines in general including on scripture claiming Luther as its source.

mb-soft.com/believe/text/lutheran.htm

Here is what the confessions say:

1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119:105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1:8.

2] Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them, and should not be received otherwise or further than as witnesses, [which are to show] in what manner after the time of the apostles, and at what places, this [pure] doctrine of the prophets and apostles was preserved.

3] 2. And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God.

This contradicts your claim that: There is none left for the Church, and this claim to authority is the cause of denominationalism, each separated group claiming the Bible as their authority and right to exist and call themselves church.

Since, while it is scripture that is the " sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged", it does not exclude teachers, teachings, and dogmas. It holds them accountable to scripture.

Jon

 

[PJM]

=JonNC;8974559]Hi Pat, and His blessings also with you.

On your question, my answer is no. But let’s break it down a bit. The one true faith cannot be contradictory, that is true. That Christians hold contradictory beliefs about that one true faith is true. So, for example, while I do not question the faith or Christianity of Calvinists, believe that some of their beliefs are so inconsistent with scripture that I could never be in communion with them. Can the Holy Spirit move in a Calvinist church? Sure, and I believe He does. Are they correctly discerning His message? No.

Jon

Ok, we can agree on what you shared. But I still struggle trying to grasp “why the Protestant Faiths [singular AND PLURAL] exist?” I know the historical answer [at least I think I might?]; but where does God’s wants, needs, and commands come into play?

God Bless my friend,
Pat

 

[Tomster]

You will find that in the controversies that arose in the early Church such as the iconoclast heresy in the east, that the bishops of the east appealed to Rome to settle them.

We point to not only this history, but Jesus’s words to Peter in scripture. He gave Him the keys to His kingdom, making him His prime minister. We point to this authority earlier prefigured in salvation history, the keys worn by the prime minister symbolizing his office and authority to govern in the king’s place when the king was not present.

His words to Peter are unique, singling Him out, the rock, do you love me, feed my sheep, etc.

When the center of the Roman empire moved to Constantinople there was a debate to also make the bishop of that city the head of the Church, since that city was the new center of authority in the civil sphere. Whether or not this was the right thing to do is irrelevant. Why would such a debate take place if it was not recognized by all the Church that the see of Peter had unique authority?

This is history, not theology.

Recently and possibly still, there are three men claiming authority over the Orthodox Church in Ukraine. There is the man obedient to the Russians appointed by Moscow, one to the Greeks, and a Ukranian who has declared the Ukranian Orthodox Church to be autocephalis, self heading. How many head can a body have?

As far as Luterans go, to claim their structure of governance is anything like the early Church is preposterous. They don’t have orders. Luther’s core doctrine sola scriptura says all authority is in scripture. There is none left for the Church, and this claim to authority is the cause of denominationalism, each separated group claiming the Bible as their authority and right to exist and call themselves church. Denominationalism unleashed by this false doctrine is the cause of the disintegration of Christian culture. A house divided against itself surely will fall. It is accepted as the status quo now, but direct disobedience to Christ the King, who all the denominations claim as their head and owing obedience. This chaos, this religious anarchy that has opened the door to the diabolical forces of anti-religion to allow them to gain power over our culture is attributable to one source, the spark that lit the inferno.

 

[batman1973]

This is how it was explained to me:
The Church is not a building or institution. The Church is the body of believers, the bride of Christ, whom Jesus Himself is the head. We are of One Lord, One Faith, and One baptism. We are united by our Faith in Christ. Why are there so many “churches”? Well, why are there diffrent types of shoes? Clearly only one type does the job. Why are there different types of cars? Or resturants, or stores?( ad infineum) The reason? We, as people love variety. We want and crave that individualism. Certainly some churches are started for silly reasons (Church of the hat rack vs. Church of the no hat rack) Others, to address needs(No churches in the area) With the exception of the cults, and “fringe groups”(prosperiety movement and it’s ilk) All Protestant churches are united under the commonality of Jesus is the Son of God,The Trinity, and that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, and that you need Jesus as your Lord and Savior to get to heaven.
(sorry for the bad spelling and grammer)

 

[Curious_Seed]

Is there a “common reason” for the Protestant churches? A common foundation?

God Bless,
Pat

The only common foundation of all Protestant and Catholic Churches is their agreement with Peter’s response to Jesus in Matthew 16:16.

Beyond that, each holds to their own truth, and holds it as enunciated by the late R.C. Archbishop Sheen: “The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it.”

But that does not answer Pilate’s question in John 18:38, though Protestants and Catholics form Churches, each united within itself, in full conviction, that it alone does.

 

[Deconi]

Is there a “common reason” for the Protestant churches? A common foundation?

God Bless,
Pat

Must be a trick question!

The common reason for the Protestant churches is …in their protest against Rome!

The common foundation is found in their splintering in thought and understanding of the common reason ‘during’ the splintering period which does not seem to have an end. Since it was caused by man, it is will not, or mostly unlikely to, end whilst man exist!

To further the problem, they use the ‘gifts’ they received from the ‘master’ (Scripture and the identity of God) as a measure against ‘him’ and they feel they’ve found justification for the protest.

Pretty simple.

 

[JonNC]

Ok, we can agree on what you shared. But I still struggle trying to grasp “why the Protestant Faiths [singular AND PLURAL] exist?” I know the historical answer [at least I think I might?]; but where does God’s wants, needs, and commands come into play?

God Bless my friend,
Pat

Pat,
I can’t speak for protestants, but from a Lutheran perspective, the Augsburg Confession defined the issues, what the Lutheran reformers intended, which includes a claim that they did not desire division. Christ makes clear, however, what He wants of us, whether we are Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, PNCC, you name it, and that is that we be one, and I’m sure He wants that to happen prior to the Chruch Triumphant.

Jon

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . .And I would agree with Publisher that there is but one Church - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Jon

Jon,
I agree.

Anna

 

[Luvtosew]

Yes. The common reason is God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We also have that in common with your church. Now, I know that’s not what you wanted, you wanted to ask, “why are they Protestant?”, but I don’t think there’s a common reason for that one, at least not one that easily comes to mind.

I bellieve there are several main reasons: why Protestants are Protestants.

1. transubstantiation
2. the sacrifice of the Mass
3. too much emphasis on the BVM
4. the sacraments
5. salvation beliefs a big one.
6. purgatory
7. interpretation of scripture
8. men acting in persona of Christ
9. too much ritualistic

these are the common ones I hear. different order of importantance for everyone I imagine.
But the one I hear most is the meaning of the Last Supper.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I bellieve there are several main reasons: why Protestants are Protestants.

1. transubstantiation
2. the sacrifice of the Mass
3. too much emphasis on the BVM
4. the sacraments
5. salvation beliefs a big one.
6. purgatory
7. interpretation of scripture
8. men acting in persona of Christ
9. too much ritualistic

these are the common ones I hear. different order of importantance for everyone I imagine.
But the one I hear most is the meaning of the Last Supper.

Luvtosew,
How do you define Protestant? This is important, because many non-Catholic, non-Eastern Orthodox, Christians would not disagree with all of this list.

Anna

 

[Luvtosew]

Luvtosew,
How do you define Protestant? This is important, because many non-Catholic, non-Eastern Orthodox, Christians would not disagree with all of this list.

Anna

Just from recent research as I"m probably going to leave the Catholic Church. I have heard, or mostly read the above stuff in the last several months. I have never been to a different church but Catholic, but just researching. I mainly have one of the above concerns but its a major one, which has started me on a jouney so to say.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Just from recent research as I"m probably going to leave the Catholic Church. I have heard, or mostly read the above stuff in the last several months. I have never been to a different church but Catholic, but just researching. I mainly have one of the above concerns but its a major one, which has started me on a jouney so to say.

Luvtosew,
I would never want to say anything to lead you out of the Catholic faith. I have a great respect for the Catholic Church. There are only a few issues that keep me from leaving Anglo Catholicism and entering the Catholic Church/Communion with Rome. So, I can’t even say what my own future will hold.

I would urge you to exhaust all possibilities, such as meeting with your Priest to discuss your areas of concern, and why you are considering leaving.

Catholics here will certainly help you in any way they can.

Peace and prayers for you,
Anna

 

[Luvtosew]

Luvtosew,
I would never want to say anything to lead you out of the Catholic faith. I have a great respect for the Catholic Church. There are only a few issues that keep me from leaving Anglo Catholicism and entering the Catholic Church/Communion with Rome. So, I can’t even say what my own future will hold.

I would urge you to exhaust all possibilities, such as meeting with your Priest to discuss your areas of concern, and why you are considering leaving.

Catholics here will certainly help you in any way they can.

Peace and prayers for you,
Anna

Anna,
Thank you , but I have thought long and hard about it, and I am not going to say anything neg either, and well I have much family thats Catholic. I hope you can resolve your issues as well. Its not easy to make these important decisions, and one needs to take their time.
God Bless.

 

[PJM]

=JonNC;8980559]Pat,
I can’t speak for protestants, but from a Lutheran perspective, the Augsburg Confession defined the issues, what the Lutheran reformers intended, which includes a claim that they did not desire division. Christ makes clear, however, what He wants of us, whether we are Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, PNCC, you name it, and that is that we be one, and I’m sure He wants that to happen prior to the Chruch Triumphant.

Jon

Thanks Jon,

That still does not clear up the issue for ME

“One” so often spoken of in the NT seems to ME, to require a common set of faith beliefs.

God Bless you Brother!

Pat

 

[JonNC]

Thanks Jon,

That still does not clear up the issue for ME

“One” so often spoken of in the NT seems to ME, to require a common set of faith beliefs.

God Bless you Brother!

Pat

No argument, Pat.
How do we get there (again)?

Jon

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,
Thank you , but I have thought long and hard about it, and I am not going to say anything neg either, and well I have much family thats Catholic. I hope you can resolve your issues as well. Its not easy to make these important decisions, and one needs to take their time.
God Bless.

Luvtosew,

Indeed, it does take time, and we each have to follow our conscience. I have some wonderful Catholic friends here. Some have asked why I haven’t made that leap from Anglicanism to Catholicism.

It’s kinda like my somewhat impaired night vision. I can only drive as fast as I can see.

We are headed in the same direction. Hopefully we will all end up at the same destination, preferably not one with an extremely hot climate.

Anna

 

[Luvtosew]

Luvtosew,

Indeed, it does take time, and we each have to follow our conscience. I have some wonderful Catholic friends here. Some have asked why I haven’t made that leap from Anglicanism to Catholicism.

It’s kinda like my somewhat impaired night vision. I can only drive as fast as I can see.

We are headed in the same direction. Hopefully we will all end up at the same destination, preferably not one with an extremely hot climate.

Anna

Anna, forgive me for not understanding, but isn’t Anglican now the same as the Catholic Church as far as the Mass and Sacraments? How is it different?