My Questions About Christianity

[manualman]

…For anybody that hasn’t read the book, Heaven Is For Real,

A little boy, (aged 4) has some serious health issues. During one of his surgeries, Jesus took him to heaven. He described heaven in such detail that a four year old could not have known otherwise. He was not a catholic. His father was a protestant minister. Colton saw Gods throne, and met John the baptist. He also said Jesus had ‘markers’ on his hands. (The holes from the nails). I found this book to be very convincing. I wondered how the catholic faith would observe this.

This poses a bigger challenge for evangelical protestants than catholics. Most ev. prot. communities believe that man is utterly depraved via Adam’s sin and destined for hell until/unless they have an explicit faith/salvation experience “accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior by faith.” They mostly (some exceptions) refuse to baptise infants and small children on the argument that one below the age of reason cannot recognize his sins and repent and accept Jesus as Lord. So how can a 4 year old be saved in such a worldview?

Catholics understand it as possible because we believe in Grace. Grace is given at baptism (even for infants). God even grants Grace in extraordinary ways outside those that have been explicitly revealed to us. It is no surprise to us when God is merciful. I’m not sure how protestants, especially the Calvinistic sort, could explain this 4 year old.

All that said, beware individual personal testimonies. People make strange claims sometimes. Trusting is good, but prioritize your list of trustworthiness.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=anotherauthor12;8844168]Okay, first of all, I am NOT trying to insult or deny the beliefs of Catholics or Protestants. I am just trying to get a better understanding of Christianity in general. So PLEASE do not take any offense from my questions.

Heres a little a backround info on my personal beliefs. I was baptized and raised a Catholic. But in the last two years, (I’m 13) I’ve been having some doubts and questions. I really don’t classify myself as a Catholic or a Protestant. I classify myself as just a Christian. And my mother grew up protestant and my dad grew up Catholic.

Q1. Why do Protestants call themselves Christians but Catholics usually refer to themselves as Catholics?

Keep in mind that the word catholic means universal. So by say I am a Catholic I am indentifing myself as a christian of the universal church founded by Christ at pentacost, not not one of the many denomination that have come about since the reformation about 500 years ago. Those of that came out of the reformation use chrisian to keep the connection to the pre-reformation.

Q2. I have met some Catholics that are VERY excluding to Protestants and incredibly close-minded on their beliefs. I know that not all Catholics are like that, and that some Protestants are the same way, but I’ve seen it more so with Catholics. Does God not want us to welcome our neighbors? Even if we don’t share the same beliefs?

It has a lot with looking at if on both sides as the other side rejecting the truth.

Q3. Okay, this might be a little long winded. On Good Friday, Jesus forgave the man who had commited mortal sins all his life. But yet he didn’t say, ‘You’ll be in purgatory for a little while, and then you’ll get to join me in paradise.’ He said ‘Today you’ll be with me in paradise.’ If that was true, then why did he not have to go through purgatory? I personally am having many struggles with purgatory, and so once again, PLEASE do not be offended. And also, though in Revalations 21, it states that nothing unclean can enter heaven, then does that mean that when Jesus died, he did not FORGIVE and CLEANSE us from our sins?

Yes we are made clean in the blood of Christ. Remeber to that Jesus is God so he has the athority to forgive all sin. there is a lot going on here. The thief next to Chirst acknowledge his sin and accepted his punishment and asked ever so humble for forgiveness. He in other words made a perfect act of contrition. Now with purgatory look at the word the foundation is purge. purgatory is the the removal of the effect sin on our soul the stain is does not pay the price Christ did that.

Q.4 It seems from my point of view, that though the Pope is the church leader, that he is given too much ‘power’. Doesn’t God hold all of the faithful ones equal to one another?

The Popes authority come right from scripture as the successor of Peter Matthew 16:18

Q.5 (Last question, I promise.) Do Catholics really believe that Protestants don’t go to heaven? Why or why not?

God grace and salvation is his will we do not know what indivulals will not be there.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and reply. I am truly just trying to have a better understanding of the faith.

-A

 

[zz912]

Angela: Thanks a bunches! Its nice to know I’m not the only teen on here. Your insight on purgatory really made sense!

My mom thinks that because there is no specific reference to purgatory it does not exist. I have a tendency to agree with her. God makes sure to let us know their is a heaven, hell, trinity, and all that other stuff. If purgatory was real, wouldn’t God make more of an effort to let us know it exists.

For anybody that hasn’t read the book, Heaven Is For Real,

A little boy, (aged 4) has some serious health issues. During one of his surgeries, Jesus took him to heaven. He described heaven in such detail that a four year old could not have known otherwise. He was not a catholic. His father was a protestant minister. Colton saw Gods throne, and met John the baptist. He also said Jesus had ‘markers’ on his hands. (The holes from the nails). I found this book to be very convincing. I wondered how the catholic faith would observe this.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Well there is specific reference to places other the Heaven and hell in Scripture. Revelation says that Death and Hades will be thrown into hell at the Last Judgement. St Peter tells of Jesus preaching to the souls in"prison", and Jesus Himself tells us about the bosom of Abraham. All three of these can’t be Heaven nor hell, so there must be at least one more place.

 

[Incomplete]

Some time after he died, he briefly appeared in a vision to me and simply said, “We’re not in heaven. We’re all in Purgatory. Oh, we’re not suffering any pain, so you don’t have to worry about that! In fact, it’s pretty good around here…” And here he looked rather impressed. But then he repeated, “But we’re not in heaven…”. Then he disappeared.

So I have my doubts. To be honest I don’t think they do, not because we’re better (if anything, from personal experiences, I’d say Protestants are more sincere and enthusiastic than Catholics as whole), but because God won’t stand for the continued division of His Church. I also think that’s why He’s been sending Mary with these urgent messages at Lourdes, Fatima, Akita etc. and not Christ Himself. It’s a judgement on a divided Church.

If they were in Purgatory, then that means they will eventually be in heaven.

 

[promethius]

Q1. Why do Protestants call themselves Christians but Catholics usually refer to themselves as Catholics?

I tell people I’m a Christian first, and only clarify that I’m specifically catholic if it becomes important to a conversation.

Catholics are Christians, however, so to say “I am Catholic” is the same as saying “I’m Christian”

Let me give you an example: if your neighbor says to you “I got a new poodle” would you ask why she didn’t tell you “I got a new dog” instead?

Q2. I have met some Catholics that are VERY excluding to Protestants and incredibly close-minded on their beliefs. I know that not all Catholics are like that, and that some Protestants are the same way, but I’ve seen it more so with Catholics. Does God not want us to welcome our neighbors? Even if we don’t share the same beliefs?

Odd, I have had exactly the opposite experience. Remember, however, that many catholics are doggedly persecuted by the “non-denominationals” repeatedly (I’ve experienced it myself), and some of them may have developed some defense mechanisms that probably aren’t the best. Try to give them a little understanding, it’s hard to be a catholic sometimes.

Q3. Okay, this might be a little long winded. On Good Friday, Jesus forgave the man who had commited mortal sins all his life. But yet he didn’t say, ‘You’ll be in purgatory for a little while, and then you’ll get to join me in paradise.’ He said ‘Today you’ll be with me in paradise.’ If that was true, then why did he not have to go through purgatory? I personally am having many struggles with purgatory, and so once again, PLEASE do not be offended. And also, though in Revalations 21, it states that nothing unclean can enter heaven, then does that mean that when Jesus died, he did not FORGIVE and CLEANSE us from our sins?

You can’t be IN purgatory, because purgatory is not a phsyical place… it is defined (even in the Catechism) as a PROCESS. It is the process by which the declaration in Revelation 21 is fulfilled: that the unclean is made clean by purgation (known to protestants as sanctification).

Where else does this idea appear in scriptures? Prominantly, Paul encourages people to pray for the dead several times… and a soul in hell cannot be saved, nor does a soul in heaven NEED our prayers, so the ONLY thing Paul could be referring to is the souls in the process of purgation.

Incidently, because of Revelation 21, ALL christians MUST believe in purgatory. Your mom believes in purgatory too, she just doesn’t know it because she probably calls it sanctification instead.

Finally: why do you declare that the man on the cross was guilty of mortal sin? Let’s point out three things: first, he knows Jesus BY NAME, which means he may have been a baptised believer already at that point. Second, Jesus never sinned in any way, and He was on a cross… what leads you to believe that the man crucified next to him was thus guilty of mortal sin all his life? Even if this man WAS a horrible sinner and an unbaptised believer, his actions on the cross would certainly represent an act of faith (a work) commensurate with baptism by desire: a baptism which would then wipe out all sin the man had commited before that point anyway.

Q.4 It seems from my point of view, that though the Pope is the church leader, that he is given too much ‘power’. Doesn’t God hold all of the faithful ones equal to one another?

Christ tells his apostles that “he who hears you, hears Me, who who rejects you, rejects Me” and then He breaths His Spirit onto them.

This is the authority Christ gave His church… if a church does not claim to speak with the very authority of God, then it isn’t the biblical church. Catholics have that, protestants (generally) do not.

Q.5 (Last question, I promise.) Do Catholics really believe that Protestants don’t go to heaven? Why or why not?

Trick question: only catholics go to heaven, yes, but at the same time, we cannot judge who is a member of the church invisible… meaning that there are cases where protestants, atheists, muslims, hindus, buddhists, etc MIGHT be saved through the mercy and grace of God, despite the fact that they never physically joined the church on earth.

We can rest assured, however, that they will enter heaven (after judgement and proper purgation) under the auspices of Catholicism and the grace which is given through the Church.

 

[promethius]

For anybody that hasn’t read the book, Heaven Is For Real,

A little boy, (aged 4) has some serious health issues. During one of his surgeries, Jesus took him to heaven. He described heaven in such detail that a four year old could not have known otherwise. He was not a catholic. His father was a protestant minister. Colton saw Gods throne, and met John the baptist. He also said Jesus had ‘markers’ on his hands. (The holes from the nails). I found this book to be very convincing. I wondered how the catholic faith would observe this.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I’m skipping the book. As a bachelor of physics, I fall into the category of the skeptic… the drug induced dreams of a fanciful and probably frightened four year old boy, fueled by the perceptions fed to him by his father and with NO backing proof whatsoever, have little impact on my perception of reality.

 

[PJM]

---

=anotherauthor12;8844168]Okay, first of all, I am NOT trying to insult or deny the beliefs of Catholics or Protestants. I am just trying to get a better understanding of Christianity in general. So PLEASE do not take any offense from my questions.

Q1. Why do Protestants call themselves Christians but Catholics usually refer to themselves as Catholics?

Because Christ only founded One Church [Mt. 16:15-19] and they are at best in SCHISM from it. Never- Ever has God approved of more than the One set of Faith beliefs that along with “the KEY” to heaven itself [CHRIST OWN WORDS] he personally assigened and entrusted to todays RCC.

Q2. I have met some Catholics that are VERY excluding to Protestants and incredibly close-minded on their beliefs. I know that not all Catholics are like that, and that some Protestants are the same way, but I’ve seen it more so with Catholics. Does God not want us to welcome our neighbors? Even if we don’t share the same beliefs?

Logically there can be and is Only One TRUTH per issue. Christ and the HS **[Jn.14:16-17; Jn. 20:19-22; and John 17:15-19] ** clearly point out that it is the CC ALONE with This guidance and Divien protection.

Q3. Okay, this might be a little long winded. On Good Friday, Jesus forgave the man who had commited mortal sins all his life. But yet he didn’t say, ‘You’ll be in purgatory for a little while, and then you’ll get to join me in paradise.’ He said ‘Today you’ll be with me in paradise.’ If that was true, then why did he not have to go through purgatory? I personally am having many struggles with purgatory, and so once again, PLEASE do not be offended. And also, though in Revalations 21, it states that nothing unclean can enter heaven, then does that mean that when Jesus died, he did not FORGIVE and CLEANSE us from our sins?

Dear friend PLEASE do me and you’reself a huge favor and send me a PM on this question. On the “good theif”. **John 3:5: Mk. 16:16 **are precise and clear that one MUST be Baptized. Jesus / God accepted the obvious Reptenance and Conversion of this "good-theif as a “Baptism of Desire”. ALL three forms of Baptism remit BOTH all sin and all the natural consequences to sin; thus this man was perfected and ablr to enter into heaven uopon the Ressurection Of Christ from the dead.

Q.4 It seems from my point of view, that though the Pope is the church leader, that he is given too much ‘power’. Doesn’t God hold all of the faithful ones equal to one another?

Q.5 (Last question, I promise.) Do Catholics really believe that Protestants don’t go to heaven? Why or why not?

ONLY God can say for sure. But using the Bible as our guide; it is at best VERY IFFY. All of the following reasons come into this conclusion; with GOD alone; making the finaql call.

1. Denial of the Real Presence is actually denial of Christ Himself
2. Sins can [and are] ONLY forgiven in the MANNER perscribbed by Christ: B]John 20:19-23, and this is modeled and perfected ftom OT use of priest for sin forgivenesss.
3. NOT one time is there evidence that God: Yahweh or jesus EVER approved of any set of faith beliefs other tha rhose He God entrusted to Peter and His RCC. Therefore assuming that salvation can happen in a manner more pleasing to mortal men than it is to God; is a GREAT RISK for ones salvation.

Each of these points is biblically provable; but space prudently limits such a response. Again send me a PM and I’ll prove everyting I posted here.

1. The issue is actually quite simple: who do we believe and weho do we choose to follow. Mortal men, of God himself? READ Matt. Chapter 7 for more information on this.

Either God IS IN charge or we are in charge. The responsibility cannot be split.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and reply. I am truly just trying to have a better understanding of the faith.

And that my friend is the best I can do on so many GREAT questions in such limited space.

God Bless you.
Pat PJM} on this Forum

 

[Bob_Crowley]

If they were in Purgatory, then that means they will eventually be in heaven.

Well, the way I interpreted it, “we’re all” meant all Protestants. This means that no matter when they died, eg. even back in the sixteenth century, they haven’t yet got into heaven.

So I assume, if my old pastor was correct, and from experience I usually found he was, and if the vision was a statement of fact, they are not able to make the last step. I suspect God wants His Church back in one piece first. That is, He won’t stand for people explaining away his declaration to Peter and the apostles, or trivialising communion, or the apostolic succession, or continuing in wilful divisions.

 

[Incomplete]

Well, the way I interpreted it, “we’re all” meant all Protestants. This means that no matter when they died, eg. even back in the sixteenth century, they haven’t yet got into heaven.

So I assume, if my old pastor was correct, and from experience I usually found he was, and if the vision was a statement of fact, they are not able to make the last step. I suspect God wants His Church back in one piece first. That is, He won’t stand for people explaining away his declaration to Peter and the apostles, or trivialising communion, or the apostolic succession, or continuing in wilful divisions.

So you mean they don’t go to heaven yet, as opposed to they don’t go to heaven…ever?

Also, remember this is your interpretation of what he meant. I think about Protestant Christians who have literally died for Christ, and I think about Purgatory being to purge us, and it just makes sense to me that they could learn and grow and come to God before the Church comes back in one piece.

The Protestants I know are not “explaining away” or continuing in willful divisions. They truly believe they are where God wants them, and truly believe what they say, just as much as I believe that God has guided us all through His church, the Catholic church.

Just so you know, I’m not trying to argue this (I never know how my tone comes across in writing), I’m just trying to wrap my head around it.

 

[jlhargus]

Q3. Okay, this might be a little long winded. On Good Friday, Jesus forgave the man who had commited mortal sins all his life. But yet he didn’t say, ‘You’ll be in purgatory for a little while, and then you’ll get to join me in paradise.’ He said ‘Today you’ll be with me in paradise.’ If that was true, then why did he not have to go through purgatory? I personally am having many struggles with purgatory, and so once again, PLEASE do not be offended. And also, though in Revalations 21, it states that nothing unclean can enter heaven, then does that mean that when Jesus died, he did not FORGIVE and CLEANSE us from our sins?

JL: The thief on the cross was BORN AGAIN thru baptism of desire. He is like a child born by cesarean. Not able to be born the normal way God intended. Baptism washes away ALL our sins, cleansing and purifying the baptized making us a new creature fit to enter heaven at that point.

2Cor5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

[Gal 3:26 For **YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.] In baptism we become a NEW creature being IN Christ by PUTTING ON Christ.

[Act22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and **BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.]

[Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 **That he might SANCTIFY and CLEANSE it WITH THE WASHING OF WATER BY THE WORD,]

Most do not maintain that cleansing purity. Most of us fall into those works of wood, hay and stubble, 1Cor3:12-16. Like idle words such as calling someone an idiot in traffic.

[Mt12:36 But I say unto you, That **every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.]

Most of us do not always completely forgive from the heart. As the Lord’s prayer says. Forgive us our sins AS WE FORGIVE those who sin against us. We do not always forgive from the heart.

[Mt 18:23 Therefore is **THE KINDOM OF HEAVEN LIKENED UNTO A certain KING, which would take account of his servants. … 32 Then his lord … said … I forgave thee all that debt …33… Shouldn’t you …34 his lord delivered him to the TORMENTORS till he should pay all due him 35 … LIKEWISE … my heavenly Father WILL DO TO YOU if ye from YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses] The king forgave a great dept owed him by the servant. The servant would not forgive one who owed him, but had him put in prison having no mercy. LIKEWISE our heavenly Father will do to those who forgive not from the heart.

We can confess our sins and faults in confession and are forgiven the eternal punishment. Yet we must make up or repair the temporal damage our sins have done. We can do that here or we will pay for it in purgatory. An example, repairing the damage we may have caused spreading rumors about someone. Only thru baptism is the slate wiped clean, both eternal punishment and temporal dept. There is no need for anyone to go to purgatory. Here we can repair the damage directly if possible or thru prayer, alms, penance, etc…

[TITUS 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he SAVED us, BY the WASHING OF REGENERATION, and ** RENEWING OF the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That BEING JUSTIFIED by his grace, we should be made HEIRS according to the hope of eternal life.

[1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: **BUT YE ARE WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.] Notice washed (water) by the Spirit. In Jn3:5 Christ says, EXCEPT a man is BORN of water AND of the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

I’m a convert from a non-denomination bible church many years ago.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

So you mean they don’t go to heaven yet, as opposed to they don’t go to heaven…ever?

Also, remember this is your interpretation of what he meant. I think about Protestant Christians who have literally died for Christ, and I think about Purgatory being to purge us, and it just makes sense to me that they could learn and grow and come to God before the Church comes back in one piece.

The Protestants I know are not “explaining away” or continuing in willful divisions. They truly believe they are where God wants them, and truly believe what they say, just as much as I believe that God has guided us all through His church, the Catholic church.

Just so you know, I’m not trying to argue this (I never know how my tone comes across in writing), I’m just trying to wrap my head around it.

I’m not for one minute disputing the sincerity of Protestants. Nor am I for one minute disputing the sincerity of Moslems, Buddhists, Jews, Kamikazis, Nazis or Communists, many of whom died for their own articles of faith.

But there’s going to be a dividing line, and that line belongs to Christ. I simply reported what my old pastor said (and when he was a much younger man, he gave the middle name “Luther” to one of his sons), and I reported what he said when he “appeared” in the vision.

Personally, and I’ll say it again, I don’t think God thinks much of our continued division of His Church in Christ’s name.

 

[fred_conty]

I would like to appeal to your everyday knowledge of people to explain purgatory.

Let’s say there are two people who are in their mid 40’s. One of them is
a good christian who strives to live their faith. The second
person is a serial killer. Both are in their final hour. A Pastor
prays that the killer be forgiven one more time so he may enter heaven.
Let us say that both die and both go to heaven. Is that the end of the story?
They simply both go to heaven? A murderer and a saint. And that is it?
Both are equal and are on the same terms? One man lives his life in goodness
and the other in meanness. No difference? Both are shiny new and ready for the
cleanest place ever. I believe I would say, "I don’t feel comfortable, I need to clean up.

The church thinks there is a difference. One makes a pit stop first, to clean up.
Peering thru the eyes of justice, isn’t that more in keeping with “every farthing will
be paid.”?

How many people do we know that have died that were perfect angels? Almost
everyone have had their own hidden adjendas that are secret from us. It’s a common
understanding that most people have skeletons hidden in the closet.

How about our common everyday sense with our own children. If they did something
bad and they said to you as a father, “well dad, you paid for everything, and I don’t
have to do a thing.” I wonder what a father would do after that statement.

I am thankful to the church for making it known to me for now I can face things now. Then I can cover my debt by almsgiving, prayer, and penance now which is easier
than facing the unknown evidence later.

Just a few common thoughts.
And one other thought is that those in Purgatory will never go to Hell.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I would like to appeal to your everyday knowledge of people to explain purgatory.

Let’s say there are two people who are in their mid 40’s. One of them is
a good christian who strives to live their faith. The second
person is a serial killer. Both are in their final hour. A Pastor
prays that the killer be forgiven one more time so he may enter heaven.
Let us say that both die and both go to heaven. Is that the end of the story?
They simply both go to heaven? A murderer and a saint. And that is it?
Both are equal and are on the same terms? One man lives his life in goodness
and the other in meanness. No difference? Both are shiny new and ready for the
cleanest place ever. I believe I would say, "I don’t feel comfortable, I need to clean up.
…

I agree. Even the repentant thief on the cross spent six hours on the cross, which to my mind could easily equate to a very difficult purgatory, with time to think about his own sins, as he freely admitted.

I sometimes use my own father as an example. I believe he’s in hell frankly, due to an incident the night he died.

However suppose he’d made a last minute death bed confession, and been absolved of his sins by a priest, or God in a priest’s absence. I think God would have kept to His own promise, as He cannot be unfaithful to Himself.

However my father had a foul temper, which he did virtually nothing to control. By the time he died, it would be a truism to say he was a bad temper. He didn’t control his temper - it controlled him. He could no longer control it.

Now even if he had confessed, he’d have taken that bad temper with him. As far as I’m concerned, there was no way God would have let him into heaven with his temper the way it was. It wouldn’t have stayed heaven for long if he had. He’d have very quickly found something to throw a tantrum over, even in heaven.

And since he hadn’t made an ounce of effort to do anything about it before death, just as we’re always being exhorted to seek holiness (probably more so in Protestant circles than in Catholic circles, if my experience is anything to go by), then he would have to do something about it after death. That’s why the purgatorial experience appears to be one of refining fire, if what I’ve read about it is correct.

It’s a logical necessity in my opinion.

So had he made a death bed confession, he’d have gotten to heaven eventually, but I think it would have taken a long time.

But as far as I know he made no such confession. The departing scream when he appeared in my room the night he died left me with the distinct impression he was absolutely terrified at what was approaching him, although I could only see him.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I agree. Even the repentant thief on the cross spent six hours on the cross, which to my mind could easily equate to a very difficult purgatory, with time to think about his own sins, as he freely admitted.

I sometimes use my own father as an example. I believe he’s in hell frankly, due to an incident the night he died.

However suppose he’d made a last minute death bed confession, and been absolved of his sins by a priest, or God in a priest’s absence. I think God would have kept to His own promise, as He cannot be unfaithful to Himself.

However my father had a foul temper, which he did virtually nothing to control. By the time he died, it would be a truism to say he was a bad temper. He didn’t control his temper - it controlled him. He could no longer control it.

Now even if he had confessed, he’d have taken that bad temper with him. As far as I’m concerned, there was no way God would have let him into heaven with his temper the way it was. It wouldn’t have stayed heaven for long if he had. He’d have very quickly found something to throw a tantrum over, even in heaven.

And since he hadn’t made an ounce of effort to do anything about it before death, just as we’re always being exhorted to seek holiness (probably more so in Protestant circles than in Catholic circles, if my experience is anything to go by), then he would have to do something about it after death. That’s why the purgatorial experience appears to be one of refining fire, if what I’ve read about it is correct.

It’s a logical necessity in my opinion.

So had he made a death bed confession, he’d have gotten to heaven eventually, but I think it would have taken a long time.

But as far as I know he made no such confession. The departing scream when he appeared in my room the night he died left me with the distinct impression he was absolutely terrified at what was approaching him, although I could only see him.

And there is of course Paul’s letter to the Corinthians -

1 Corinthians 3:15 NIV - "If *(anyone’ work viz. what they’ve done with their life) *is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

Nor am I aware God is under any compunction to put terms into the Bible just to suit Protestant readers. There are enough hints about Purgatory without it specifically being mentioned by that name in Scripture. But if you listened to the Protestants, one would have to think that unless God gives a specific term in Scripture, it doesn’t exist.

 

[Angela77]

Angela: Thanks a bunches! Its nice to know I’m not the only teen on here. Your insight on purgatory really made sense!

My mom thinks that because there is no specific reference to purgatory it does not exist. I have a tendency to agree with her. God makes sure to let us know their is a heaven, hell, trinity, and all that other stuff. If purgatory was real, wouldn’t God make more of an effort to let us know it exists.

For anybody that hasn’t read the book, Heaven Is For Real,

A little boy, (aged 4) has some serious health issues. During one of his surgeries, Jesus took him to heaven. He described heaven in such detail that a four year old could not have known otherwise. He was not a catholic. His father was a protestant minister. Colton saw Gods throne, and met John the baptist. He also said Jesus had ‘markers’ on his hands. (The holes from the nails). I found this book to be very convincing. I wondered how the catholic faith would observe this.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Even if you have trouble believing in Purgatory, it’s okay. You’ve got your whole life to decide what you think about it. No rush.

As for the story about the little boy spending some time in Heaven, I find that totally believable. That’s neat!

 

[jlhargus]

Even the repentant thief on the cross spent six hours on the cross, which to my mind could easily equate to a very difficult purgatory, with time to think about his own sins, as he freely admitted.

That’s why the purgatorial experience appears to be one of refining fire, if what I’ve read about it is correct. It’s a logical necessity in my opinion.

JL: That’s an good point. Even on earth our Lord gives the grace to purify His people. Also we can avoid Purgatory thru prayer, alms giving and penance. So we might be partakers of His holiness and have no need of Purgatory.

[Hb12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons**; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, THAT WE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. 12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, LEST THAT WHICH IS LAME be TURNED OUT OF THE WAY; but let it rather be healed. 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:]

If we neglect to make use of those chastisements on earth. God in His great mercy, will purify us after death in Purgatory, basically it’s up to us.]

 

[jlhargus]

He said ‘Today you’ll be with me in paradise.’

JL: Where did Christ and the theif’s soul go THAT DAY and the next three? No one went to heaven before Christ assended. The spirits or disembodied souls of the OT just and unjust went to one of the chambers of hell, Lk16. The just to the chamber of paradise, Abraham’s Bosom, the unjust to a chamber of torment.

Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, WHEN HE ASCENDED up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that HE ASCENDED, what is it but that HE ALSO DESCENDED FIRST into the lower parts of the earth?

Our Lord descended into Hell bringing the good news when he preached to them. [1Pt4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.] CCC 634. [1Pt3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also HE WENT and preached unto the spirits in prison;] As far as prison, all in Sheol=hell are captives, even in Abraham’s Bosom. When one is marooned on a paradise island, he is a captive. He cannot leave that place, till rescued by his savior.

When he ascended, he led a host of captives, the great CLOUD of witnesses.
The OT patriarchs, [Hb11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and CONFESSED THAT THEY WERE STRANGERS AND PILGRIMS ON THE EARTH. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now THEY DESIRE A BETTER COUNTRY, that is, AN HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their GOD: for he hath PREPARED for them A CITY.] There will be NEW HEAVENS (Universe) and EARTH. A heavenly universe and a heavenly earth, they will be transformed just as our resurrected bodies will be transformed into heavenly bodies. God will dwell with men in the New Heavenly Jerusalem. Heaven and creation will be UNITED as ONE.

[Hb11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, **RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE: 40 GOD having PROVIDED some BETTER THING FOR US, that THEY WITHOUT US should not be made perfect. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are COMPASSED ABOUT with so great A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,]

[Hb11:1-12-1, [Acts1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a CLOUD hid him from their sight.] Christ took the just spirits, disembodied, souls, in Sheol=Hades=Hell into heaven. Now MADE perfect by the blood of Christ, which cleanses and takes away sin, thru baptism, [Hb10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins].

[Hb12:22 But YE ARE COME UNTO mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the **HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to GOD THE JUDGE OF ALL, and TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, 24 AND TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.] We now see the spirits of just men MADE perfect now in heaven with our Lord, waiting the resurrection of their bodies at the end of time. The souls of the unjust are still in hell=sheol=hades, waiting the resurrection of their bodies. When BOTH their bodies AND soul will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, where their worm NEVER DIES.

 

[jlhargus]

• My mom thinks that because there is no specific reference to purgatory it does not exist. I have a tendency to agree with her. God makes sure to let us know their is a heaven, hell, trinity, and all that other stuff. If purgatory was real, wouldn’t God make more of an effort to let us know it exists.*
  The word PURGATORY isn’t found in scripture, nor is the word TRINITY. It took 3 hundred years for trinity to be clarified and defined by the Chruch, you accept it. The concept for BOTH are IMPLIED in scripture. Christ uses the word PRISON to describe a temporary place of restitution.

[Mt5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art **IN THE WAY

with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into PRISON. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, TILL thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.]

[LK 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, AS THOU ART IN THE WAY, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, **and the officer cast thee into PRISON. 59 I tell thee, THOU SHALT NOT DEPART THENCE, TILL thou hast paid the very last mite.

[Mt 28:23 Therefore is **THE KINDOM OF HEAVEN LIKENED UNTO A certain KING, which would take account of his servants. … 32 Then his lord … said … I forgave thee …33… Shouldn’t you …34 his lord delivered him to the tormentors till he should pay all due him 35 … LIKEWISE … my heavenly Father WILL DO TO YOU if ye from YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses]

[1Cor3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 **Every man’s work shall be made MANIFEST: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the FIRE SHALL TRY EVERY MAN’S WORD OF WHAT SORT IT IS. 14 IF ANY MAN’S WORK ABIDE which he hath built thereupon, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15 IF any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall suffer LOSS: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.

[Hb9:27 And as IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, but AFTER this THE JUDGMENT:]

[Mk9:49 For **EVERY ONE SHALL BE SALTED WITH FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.] [HEB 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.]

How can a WORK be carried with us into death when we are at our immortal core being soul (spirit), and take nothing with us? Works are brought to the judgement in the HEART or SOUL’S intention. Was the intention of the work, for love of God, or for the praise it will bring to self? That inclination, to works of wood, hay, stubble, will be purged by fire or suffering to render the soul pure. Just as gold which has impurities and is purified, as though by fire. The HEART or soul must be separated from the impure works of wood, hay or stubble. Those in purgatory cannot help themselves. They can be helped by our prayers and sacrifices offered to God on their behalf.

[Jer 17:9 THE HEART IS DECEITFUL above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? 10 ** I THE LORD SEARCH THE HEART and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to WHAT HIS DEEDS deserve.]

[Mk7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that WHATSOEVER THING FROM WITHOUT ENTERETH INTO THE MAN, it CANNOT DEFILE HIM; 19 Because IT ENTERETH NOT into HIS HEART, BUT INTO THE BELLY, and goeth out into the draught, PRUGING ALL MEATS? 20 And he said, **THAT WHICH COMETH OUT OF THE MAN, that DEFILETH THE MAN. 21 For FROM WITHIN, OUT OF THE HEART of men, PROCEED EVIL thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,]

When we die, we take nothing with us, we are at our core being,soul, from which pure or
impure actions come. the same work can be gold or hay, depending on the intention of the heart, whether done for love of God or love of self. It is from within our heart or core being, from which sin comes, that’s what needs to be purified, of the inclination to impure works.

[1Pt4:18 And IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?]

[Mt 12:[Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN him, NEITHER in this world, **NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME. 33 EITHER MAKE THE TREE GOOD AND its fruit good OR make the tree BAD and its fruit bad for the tree is known by its fruit 34 You brood of vipers! how can you speak good when you are evil For out of the abundance OF THE HEART the mouth speaks 35 The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil 36 I tell you on the day of judgment men will RENDER ACCOUNT FOR EVERY CARLESS WORD they utter] Neither in the world to come idicates some things can be forgiven in the next world.] Some trees can be MADE good only thru suffering either in this life or in the next.

[2Tm2:12 If we suffer, we shall **ALSO REIGN WITH HIM: if we deny him, he also will deny us:] Suffering is not a cruse, Christians are called to carry their cross daily. Suffering can not only purify the one suffering, but can also draw down God’s grace for the salvation of others on earth, Christ want’s his people to SHARE in his work of salvation.