My questions to JW's

[BibleSteve]

I Read and see if 1975 was taught with an IF.

"The Witnesses had long shared the belief that the Thousand Year Reign of Christ would follow after 6,000 years of human history. But when would 6,000 years of human existence end? The book Life Everlasting—In Freedom of the Sons of God, released at a series of district conventions held in 1966, pointed to 1975. Right at the convention, as the brothers examined the contents, the new book triggered much discussion about 1975.

At the convention held in Baltimore, Maryland, F.*W.*Franz gave the concluding talk. He began by saying: “Just before I got on the platform a young man came to me and said, ‘Say, what does this 1975 mean?’” Brother Franz then referred to the many questions that had arisen as to whether the material in the new book meant that by 1975 Armageddon would be finished, and Satan would be bound. He stated, in essence: ‘It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that.’"

Unfortunately, many people get caught up and don’t listen as carefully as they should. Franz was very specific about what he said. I’ve search all the specific written publications and they are the same.

However, even with the explicit statement by Franz, various speakers paraphrased the message getting people excited about the possibility without emphasizing what Franz underscored; don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975.

The WTS has hundreds of thousands of speakers (Elders, Circuit Overseers, District Overseers). The WTS tries diligently to ensure everyone speaks the message clearly and accurately, but that’s a fairly impossible task.

I’m sure its the same in the Catholic Church. Does every Priest always convey the message from the top perfectly?

 

[BibleSteve]

IF people had overly eager expectations, where did they obtain them? Should the rank and file be blamed for what the “faithful and discreet slave” was dispensing to them? 1975 didn’t come from the rank and file. Now, when the rank and file ran with it, did the Watchtower Society attempt to quell it or encourage it?

Nobody was blaming the rank and file. As you can see from the previous quote, Franz was explicit. Other speakers later paraphrased without the cautionary note Franz was underscoring.

JW-critics pounced on this because they’re looking for things to complain about.

 

[Yerusalyim]

You edited my comments! How typical of a JW.

Actually, not typical of JW’s but quite typical of the Society in their publications.

HELLISREAEL…YOU might be in the dark about what JW’s believe, but there are many here who are not…including Jeff…who made it out of that cult…and myself…who was married to a JW for many years before she finally converted to Catholicism…I spent a LOT of time studying their doctrine…and it ain’t pretty at all.

I notice that “BibleSteve” doesn’t address the real and serious issues brought up Jeff…and that he’s a deadender on defending the Society…the Society which DID hype 1975 as they did other dates…and which did join the United Nations as a NonGovernmental Organization while claiming that the UN was part of Satan’s organization.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

"The Witnesses had long shared the belief that the Thousand Year Reign of Christ would follow after 6,000 years of human history. But when would 6,000 years of human existence end? The book Life Everlasting—In Freedom of the Sons of God, released at a series of district conventions held in 1966, pointed to 1975. Right at the convention, as the brothers examined the contents, the new book triggered much discussion about 1975.

At the convention held in Baltimore, Maryland, F.*W.*Franz gave the concluding talk. He began by saying: “Just before I got on the platform a young man came to me and said, ‘Say, what does this 1975 mean?’” Brother Franz then referred to the many questions that had arisen as to whether the material in the new book meant that by 1975 Armageddon would be finished, and Satan would be bound. He stated, in essence: ‘It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that.’"

Unfortunately, many people get caught up and don’t listen as carefully as they should. Franz was very specific about what he said. I’ve search all the specific written publications and they are the same.

However, even with the explicit statement by Franz, various speakers paraphrased the message getting people excited about the possibility without emphasizing what Franz underscored; don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975.

The WTS has hundreds of thousands of speakers (Elders, Circuit Overseers, District Overseers). The WTS tries diligently to ensure everyone speaks the message clearly and accurately, but that’s a fairly impossible task.

I’m sure its the same in the Catholic Church. Does every Priest always convey the message from the top perfectly?

You took one cautionary statement and conveniently overlooked the quote I was referring to. Let me spell it out for you.

The Watchtower March 15, 1980 “Choosing the best way of life”

“In modern times eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearence of the book “Life Everlasting in the Freedom of the Sons of God,” and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reight of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, THERE WERE OTHER STATEMENTS PUBLISHED THAT IMPLIED SUCH REALIZATION OF HOPES BY THAT YEAR WAS MORE OF A PROBABILITY THAN A MERE POSSIBILITY. IT IS TO BE REGRETTED that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated. In its issue of July 15, 1976, the Watchtower, commenting on the INADVISABILITY of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: ‘If anyone has been disappointed on ADJUSTING HIS VIEWPOINT, seeing that it was NOT the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on false premises.’ In saying 'ANYONE,” The Watchtower included ALL disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence INCLUDING persons HAVING TO DO WITH THE PUBLICATION OF THE INFORMATION THAT CONTRIBUTED TO THE BUILDUP OF HOPES CENTERED ON THAT DATE."

Of course, on hindsight it became inadvisable to set one’s sight on a certain date. It caused numerous defections. I don’t know about you, but to me the foregoing sounds like an apology. One need not apologize for something that was promulgated only as an IF.

 

[TraditionalCath]

which did join the United Nations as a NonGovernmental Organization while claiming that the UN was part of Satan’s organization.

now that is a good point!!

 

[Jaypeeto4]

I notice that “BibleSteve” doesn’t address the real and serious issues brought up Jeff…and that he’s a deadender on defending the Society…the Society which DID hype 1975 as they did other dates…and which did join the United Nations as a NonGovernmental Organization while claiming that the UN was part of Satan’s organization.

In the Society’s defense (which I will rarely do), I freely admit that they despise the UN and abhor it as being the 7 headed scarlet colored wild beast of the 17th chapter of the book of Revelation.
They believe firmly that the UN is inspired by the spirit of Satan.
(( seeing what has come out of the UN over the years, I very
much sympathize with their view of WHOSE spirit is behind
this power-grabbing organization )).

Still, they did join the UN as an NGO. But so have many people and organizations who do not approve of, or are wary of, the UN.
Concerned Women For America, an anti-UN organization, is an NGO member of the UN. Like CWA, the Society no doubt joined as an NGO to keep a close eye on the workings of this dangerous organization from a close-up point of view.

Even the Vatican City government has a seat in the UN general assembly, and the Vatican has had to oppose UN activities many times in recent years.

Still, it was surprising to me that the Society did that.
It would be like them advising rank and file JWs to join the Republican or Democratic Parties so as to keep tabs on the inner workings of those groups.

Agape,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[mattharris]

Dear Mattharris,

I will be happy to help out. Let me ask you if Angelic guidance has ever been a part of the JW true christians.

I will go back to my post that Jeff Answered, where I asked the question, and never got a JW response.

I do have other questions, like about the date Eve was created, and did it have a connection to the '75 date or not? And did it change?

** w06 1/15 p. 6 Angels—How They Affect Us ***

Jehovah’s Witnesses see evidence of angelic direction as they carry out their door-to-door preaching work. They often contact individuals who were just praying for someone to help them understand God’s purposes. As a result of angelic guidance and the Witnesses’ own initiative, each year hundreds of thousands come to know Jehovah.

*** w01 11/15 p. 19 par. 15 Jehovah Is Our Refuge ***

Regarding the protection we enjoy, the psalmist adds: “He [Jehovah] will give his own angels a command concerning you, to guard you in all your ways. Upon their hands they will carry you, that you may not strike your foot against any stone.” (Psalm 91:11, 12) Angels have been given power to protect us. (2*Kings 6:17; Psalm 34:7-9; 104:4; Matthew 26:53; Luke 1:19) They guard us ‘in all our ways.’ (Matthew 18:10) We enjoy angelic guidance and guardianship as Kingdom proclaimers and do not stumble spiritually. (Revelation 14:6,*7) Even ‘stones’ such as bans against our work have not caused us to stumble and fall out of divine favor.

*** w95 10/15 p. 12 par. 18 Why Fear the True God Now? ***

Is it true that angels are involved in this preaching work? Well, it certainly seems clear that angelic guidance has often brought Jehovah’s Witnesses to a home where some distressed soul was yearning, even praying, for spiritual help!

 

[JW_Annihilator]

JW’s noted 1975 to be the 6,000th anniversay of that date.

If by noted you mean they claimed 1975 was the end of the world…
They pretty much spelled it out in one kingdom ministry issue and they even had the slogan “stay alive 'til seventy five” at their assemblies and whatnot…

 

[TraditionalCath]

here’s another thing i’d like to ask jw’s. it is a valid issue to bring up.

Jesus commanded us to be charitable.

Jw’s do not donate to any charitable organizations, even if they are not church based. they do not help feed the poor, they do not donate to any charities at all. this bothers me because Christ commanded us to be charitable.

They will help their own, and they will help out those who might want a bible study, but they will not donate outside their own organization.

Therefore, they are not heeding Christ’s command to be charitable.

I don’t care how a jw spins it, they do not donate.

 

[JW_Annihilator]

Jw’s do not donate to any charitable organizations, even if they are not church based. they do not help feed the poor, they do not donate to any charities at all. this bothers me because Christ commanded us to be charitable.

Even when they do help their own they often expect insurance cheques to be donated to them while their unpaid JW workers repair the damage to the homes of JWs that are damaged in disasters. They are essentially able to generate cash by doing fake charity work.

Another neat trick is lending jehovahs witness congregations money to build a church/hall but get this, they charge them interest on the loan and when the local JWs have finished paying off the loan+interest the same organization that loaned them the money in the first place owns the property. Hilarious.

 

[BibleSteve]

I don’t know about you, but to me the foregoing sounds like an apology. One need not apologize for something that was promulgated only as an IF.

I don’t know about you, but to me the foregoing sounds like an apology. One need not apologize for something that was promulgated only as an IF.

1. In print, the WTS said 1975 was the 6,000 anniversary of man’s existence. Nothing was written saying it WOULD be the start of the Great Tribultion. It said how APPROPRIATE it would be if that were the case, JW’s believe the end could come anyday, even tommorow, So, nothing inappropriate here.
2. The president of the WTS, Franz, specifically brought up the question “What does 1975 mean?” He once again emphasized he wasn’t saying anything specific was going to happen between now and 1975. He was very clear about that.
3. I said that WTS has hundreds of thousands of speakers out giving talks throughout tens of thousands of congregations, and many assemblies. Some of these people “published” paraphrased information without the explicit clarification requested by the President of the WTS.
4. Because of these paraphrased talks, some people expected more than what the WTS had specifically said.
5. Therefore, WTS publishes a statement it was regrettable that these parapharsed talks overshadowed the cautionary statements put out by Franz, the President of the organization.

Since then, the WTS has gone to manuscript talks at the assemblies, so every speaker gives the same talk, word for word.

I see nothing sinister here. I don’t see how any organization with tens of thousands of speakers can insure every single one is saying the same thing as Franz explicitly requested.

 

[yessisan]

here’s another thing i’d like to ask jw’s. it is a valid issue to bring up.

Jesus commanded us to be charitable.

Jw’s do not donate to any charitable organizations, even if they are not church based. they do not help feed the poor, they do not donate to any charities at all. this bothers me because Christ commanded us to be charitable.

They will help their own, and they will help out those who might want a bible study, but they will not donate outside their own organization.

Therefore, they are not heeding Christ’s command to be charitable.

I don’t care how a jw spins it, they do not donate.

TraditionalCath, JWs that I know, including my DH, say and have said that they do not need to give the homeless food, shelter or even a blanket because they deliver what’s “best” for them, “spritual food”.

This has been a topic discussed several times in my house with DH, and to his defense he said he’s bought a hamburger meal to a homeless, but nothing else… JWs do not believe they have to help the rest of the world that way. In fact, 3 nights ago, when I was arguing w/DH about him not taking interest in my religion as I did for over a yr with his, and he argued he knew it all already, I told him that the only things he knew about being Catholic (because he used to be one as a child) are only the negative things the WT feeds onto their minds. I had “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth” in Spanish for him and he never read it, I told him that, again he said he didn’t need to know anything because he “knew” it all. So then I said, “If they teach you guys so much about the CC, why is it that they don’t mention all the charitable work they do? All the good things it does for the poor, the things they do for non-Catholics, for immigrants, for everyone…” He kept quiet and decided not to say anything else because he couldn’t argue w/that. The Catholic Church does do what Jesus said to do.

I’ve brought this up to JWs attention before, you guys might remember jwtruth, he didn’t have anything to say.

What about this from the Bible?

Matthew 25-46:

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. 46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

What then? Catholics do feed, do clothe, do give to drink… Why don’t JWs do this? This passage of the Bible clearly states what will happen to those who didn’t help the needy, and this doesn’t mean help your JW brothers and sisters only, it means help whomever needs help. JWs think that feeding the homeless and the needy “spritual food” will do them better than nourishment and clothing. Remember that JWs believe that they shouldn’t worry about their lives here, that they should worry what’s going to happen after the end of times. Remember too, that they are the only ones who will be saved and will have all eternity on paradise earth to live as they want, of course, with peace and all the furry animals close to them.

 

[BibleSteve]

now that is a good point!!

jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

 

[BibleSteve]

…and which did join the United Nations as a NonGovernmental Organization while claiming that the UN was part of Satan’s organization.

jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/watchtower-un-ngo/

 

[BibleSteve]

He kept quiet and decided not to say anything else because he couldn’t argue w/that. .

We can learn much from the example of one who was always perfect in discretion—Jesus. (1*Peter 2:21) He knew when it was “a time to keep quiet.” For instance, when the chief priests and the older men falsely accused him before Pilate, Jesus “made no answer.” (Matthew 27:11-14)

(Matthew 7:1-4) “Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; 2for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU. 3Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? 4*Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye?

 

[yessisan]

We can learn much from the example of one who was always perfect in discretion—Jesus. (1*Peter 2:21) He knew when it was “a time to keep quiet.” For instance, when the chief priests and the older men falsely accused him before Pilate, Jesus “made no answer.” (Matthew 27:11-14)

(Matthew 7:1-4) “Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; 2for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU. 3Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? 4*Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye?

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut Steve. Just let me add one thing, my DH is not as strong in his arguments as you are. You have decades of JW knowledge, and DH not as many. He’s only 24. I don’t think he thought of that bible verse when we were talking. But thanks for the verse.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

1. In print, the WTS said 1975 was the 6,000 anniversary of man’s existence. Nothing was written saying it WOULD be the start of the Great Tribultion. It said how APPROPRIATE it would be if that were the case, JW’s believe the end could come anyday, even tommorow, So, nothing inappropriate here.
2. The president of the WTS, Franz, specifically brought up the question “What does 1975 mean?” He once again emphasized he wasn’t saying anything specific was going to happen between now and 1975. He was very clear about that.
3. I said that WTS has hundreds of thousands of speakers out giving talks throughout tens of thousands of congregations, and many assemblies. Some of these people “published” paraphrased information without the explicit clarification requested by the President of the WTS.
4. Because of these paraphrased talks, some people expected more than what the WTS had specifically said.
5. Therefore, WTS publishes a statement it was regrettable that these parapharsed talks overshadowed the cautionary statements put out by Franz, the President of the organization.

Since then, the WTS has gone to manuscript talks at the assemblies, so every speaker gives the same talk, word for word.

I see nothing sinister here. I don’t see how any organization with tens of thousands of speakers can insure every single one is saying the same thing as Franz explicitly requested.

Steve, I know you are a very intelligent person, but don’t try to weasel around by claiming that the WTS was talking about paraphrased talks. “There were other statements PUBLISHED that implied such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probablilty than a mere possibility…All disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do WITH THE PUBLICATION OF THE INFORMATION THAT CONTRIBUTED TO THE BUILDUP OF HOPES CENTERED ON THAT DATE…” Why is it you only want to see the cautionary statements in your literature and not the other statements PUBLISHED? Please don’t be disingenuous with us. We ARE capable of reading and comprehending what is being said!

You are trying to shift the blame to those who gave talks. Nice try.

 

[Claude_Kenneson]

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut Steve. Just let me add one thing, my DH is not as strong in his arguments as you are. You have decades of JW knowledge, and DH not as many. He’s only 24. I don’t think he thought of that bible verse when we were talking. But thanks for the verse.

His silence could have also been due to his lack of knowledge as you suggest and nothing to do with the Scriptural passages quoted to you.

 

[TraditionalCath]

TraditionalCath, JWs that I know, including my DH, say and have said that they do not need to give the homeless food, shelter or even a blanket because they deliver what’s “best” for them, “spritual food”.

This has been a topic discussed several times in my house with DH, and to his defense he said he’s bought a hamburger meal to a homeless, but nothing else… JWs do not believe they have to help the rest of the world that way. In fact, 3 nights ago, when I was arguing w/DH about him not taking interest in my religion as I did for over a yr with his, and he argued he knew it all already, I told him that the only things he knew about being Catholic (because he used to be one as a child) are only the negative things the WT feeds onto their minds. I had “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth” in Spanish for him and he never read it, I told him that, again he said he didn’t need to know anything because he “knew” it all. So then I said, “If they teach you guys so much about the CC, why is it that they don’t mention all the charitable work they do? All the good things it does for the poor, the things they do for non-Catholics, for immigrants, for everyone…” He kept quiet and decided not to say anything else because he couldn’t argue w/that. The Catholic Church does do what Jesus said to do.

I’ve brought this up to JWs attention before, you guys might remember jwtruth, he didn’t have anything to say.

What about this from the Bible?

What then? Catholics do feed, do clothe, do give to drink… Why don’t JWs do this? This passage of the Bible clearly states what will happen to those who didn’t help the needy, and this doesn’t mean help your JW brothers and sisters only, it means help whomever needs help. JWs think that feeding the homeless and the needy “spritual food” will do them better than nourishment and clothing. Remember that JWs believe that they shouldn’t worry about their lives here, that they should worry what’s going to happen after the end of times. Remember too, that they are the only ones who will be saved and will have all eternity on paradise earth to live as they want, of course, with peace and all the furry animals close to them.

well i got news for the witnesses. spiritual food is good and fine for them, but God still expects us to help when we can and what we can.

Jesus fed 5000, so can we. witnesses spiritual food does not feed empty stomachs and help donate money to cure aids and hunger.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

What then? Catholics do feed, do clothe, do give to drink… Why don’t JWs do this? This passage of the Bible clearly states what will happen to those who didn’t help the needy, and this doesn’t mean help your JW brothers and sisters only, it means help whomever needs help. JWs think that feeding the homeless and the needy “spritual food” will do them better than nourishment and clothing. Remember that JWs believe that they shouldn’t worry about their lives here, that they should worry what’s going to happen after the end of times. Remember too, that they are the only ones who will be saved and will have all eternity on paradise earth to live as they want, of course, with peace and all the furry animals close to them.

Yessian, JWs do not believe all are Christ’s brothers—they believe the scripture passage in Matthew you quoted is for only the annointed remnant–not even all JWs. They believe treating the remnant right is not questioning anything they are told from Brooklyn.

Ravyn