My rant on Unity

[Syele]

The commonality amongst Protestantism is that you all tolerate each others “belief systems” much more easily than you tolerate the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church cannot be said to tolerate Protestants any better.

Protestantism has no unified teaching about abortion, which the Catholic Church teaches is the most grave injustice of all.

This has no relevance to my OP or my point.

Agreed. I have grown to hate the 30k figure that gets thrown around here. I would have trouble identifying five Protestant belief systems.

I found 6:

• Lutherans
• Calvinists
• Arminians
• Brethren
• Anabaptists
• Anglican Communion
  Non-Denominational churches contain people of all 6 theological systems in one building… Much like the Catholic Church holds people with different ideas, worshiping together.

Then cults that cannot rightfully be called Protestants at all.

It’s possible I missed one or two, but certainly not tens of thousands.

But this turns around my point. I’m saying there are different theological camps among Catholics… all Catholics do not believe 100% the same thing about everything. I’m not referring to “Cafeteria Catholics” here either.

Catholics have:

• Thomism
• Molinism
• Augustinianism
• Congruism
• Syncretism
  Here are five already. What am I missing? They are unified and not separate just cause they aren’t allowed to accuse one another of heresy? So Catholics are 100% Unified so long as there is no name calling? These are not minor differences… these delve into the very nature of God.

 

[PaulDupre]

Again, what is a Thomist??

You know, those great English muffins with the nooks and crannies.

 

[mark_a]

The Catholic Church cannot be said to tolerate Protestants any better.

Catholics can be as bad or worse than all the rest.

This has no relevance to my OP or my point.

Really? The lack of unified Protestant teaching about abortion is irrelevant to your point?

Catholics have:

• Thomism
• Molinism
• Augustinianism
• Congruism
• Syncretism
  Here are five already. What am I missing? They are unified and not separate just cause they aren’t allowed to accuse one another of heresy? So Catholics are 100% Unified so long as there is no name calling? These are not minor differences… these delve into the very nature of God.

How do these teachings affect the two great commandments?

Most Catholics don’t agree on most things, but there are non-negotiables.

The Church understands that dialog and discussion are important. Its how we came up with the teachings about the Trinity, don’t ya know.

 

[Syele]

Catholics can be as bad or worse than all the rest.

Really? The lack of unified Protestant teaching about abortion is irrelevant to your point?

My point is that I keep getting bashed over the head with Catholics telling me that the REAL problem is Disunity among Protestants and that the Catholics are 100% unified, proven by the 30,000 denominations. That Catholic Unity proves everything. When in reality there are not 30,000 denominations AND Catholics AREN’T 100% unified in the first place.

I say I believe in teh Arminian version of Grace… they say “See ANOTHER DENOMINATION!!” but if they say they believe in teh Thomist version of Grace, I’m supposed to think “Ahh see how unified the Thomists and Molinists are?”

I’m pointing out a double standard here, and in response I get someone telling me to pray for discernment about my “problem”, A sidetrack to an abortion issue, and something about crumpets (I think).

 

[Syele]

How do these teachings affect the two great commandments?

Most Catholics don’t agree on most things, but there are non-negotiables.

The Church understands that dialog and discussion are important. Its how we came up with the teachings about the Trinity, don’t ya know.

They affect the first of the two great commandments… How can you love God if you can’t agree on who God is in the first place?

 

[VARC]

Its how we came up with the teachings about the Trinity, don’t ya know.

I hear catholics say this sort of thing often. Nobody in the Church “came up with the teachings about the Trinity”. Those teachings were given by God to the Apostles and were then handed to the Fathers through Tradition. At Nicea, the Fathers didn’t “come up” with anything. They just bore witness to the common Tradition that had been passed to them.

 

[Hesychios]

I hear catholics say this sort of thing often. Nobody in the Church “came up with the teachings about the Trinity”. Those teachings were given by God to the Apostles and were then handed to the Fathers through Tradition. At Nicea, the Fathers didn’t “come up” with anything. They just bore witness to the common Tradition that had been passed to them.

Quite right!

These things aren’t developed by intelligent men with time on their hands. They are the received Truths.

Some people think that with a bit of logic and a strong imagination all sorts of Truths about the Divine can be discerned, with more coming anytime soon. They can even campaign for it, petitioning for ‘New Light’ (of their own choosing and suggestion) to be proclaimed for the benefit of the Faithful.

Roman Catholics are just like the Protestant reformers in that way (although they fail to see it) for having the hubris to think they can reason it out and stake a position the Apostolic church did not teach before.
*
Michael*

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny, I do pray for unity. But you also say something when lies are said about your faith. Why am I to be denied the same?

Yes, I have said it.

More like misconception than lie. A lie is actually a lie if one acknowledge it is a lie and know it is untrue. A lie is also a sin.

I know many Non-Catholic Christians assumed to many Catholic doctrines. Many of them have a misunderstanding about our faith and believe them to be the truth.

Catholics of course have to correct these misrepresentation by helping them understand our faith. We have to you, the truth and separate the claims which are untrue.

 

[Syele]

Yes, I have said it.

More like misconception than lie. A lie is actually a lie if one acknowledge it is a lie and know it is untrue. A lie is also a sin.

So you think that these Catholics claiming complete unity are stating a misconception not lying?

I know many Non-Catholic Christians assumed to many Catholic doctrines. Many of them have a misunderstanding about our faith and believe them to be the truth.

That is true, switch around the words Catholic and protestant and it’s still true…

Catholics of course have to correct these misrepresentation by helping them understand our faith. We have to you, the truth and separate the claims which are untrue.

Exactly, that is my question to you, Catholics must clear up misconceptions protestants have about Catholics… Why do Protestants have to just sit by and pray rather than clear up the misconceptions Catholics have about Protestants? Shouldn’t BOTH groups clear up misconceptions?

 

[VARC]

Roman Catholics are just like the Protestant reformers in that way (although they fail to see it) for having the hubris to think they can reason it out and stake a position the Apostolic church did not teach before.
*
Michael*

I agree. I read a sermon by Fr Justin Popovich entitiled Papism: The Oldest Form of Protestantism which explained how both denominiations use the same reasoning but come to different conclusions. Catholics usually tend to think that they are closer in belief to the Orthodox than the Protestants but that is not true. They are only similiar to the Orthodox in externals. Their theology is much more similiar to Protestantism. It is very strange that they do not recognize that.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This was taken from the ask a protestant a question thread. I figured I wasn’t answering but debating (well more like ranting) so i took my own advice and started a new thread.

Arminian is not a new protestant chapter.

I have never heard of it among american protestant faiths, thats why yours interested me.

You are confused.

I am only confused about, why you think, there is only one protestantism, when I last checked there are not two different protestant beliefs that agree on one doctrine let alone practice one anothers doctrine.

Please dont get offended because of my confusion of the many different protestant denominations.

The reason why all the different protestant belief systems,
is because Protestants descended from Catholics who have many different “belief systems”

**Apparently you do believe there exists many protestant belief systems, according to your statement above,

I believe you error in thinking that Catholics have many belief systems. Sure you can find many Catholics differing on opinions, and cultural differences, and language differences, Check your sources again, you will find the ones that differ are still unified in the same doctrine, this cant change, to do so will make you non catholic. those that dont follow the Catholic doctrine from 2000 yrs of teaching it, you will find them where you are Protesting the one true faith from the beginning of Christianity.**

but only share a common name and common basics. that is why the whole Bible isn’t infallibly interpreted by the Catholic Church, too many things are allowed to be decided for yourselves. Oh wait, that is what Catholics accuse us of! We learned it from the Catholics!

**This is a comical statement, thanks for the entertainment. The Catholic Church will not move from the teachings of Jesus and the first apostles. The Catholic Church holds to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Your right, The Church does give me the liberty to read the inspired word of God, and recieve my personal enlightment from the word of God.
The safed guard of infallibility that the Holy Spirit gives the Church from teaching error, keeps me from starting my own protestant denomination. If my personal revelation does not fit with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, I cannot teach it to someone else as a doctrine, thats the liberty The Catholic Church protects her body from profanity and error. **

We have are basics we are unified in, they are what make us Christians. Argue that we need more unity, argue that we need a central authority, argue that we should be Catholic. But quit pretending there are 40 zillion protestant belief systems and only one Catholic one.

I am not pretending that there are more than two protestant belief systems, I find you to intelligent to be illusional about the many protestant denominations that exists. And yes there is only one Catholic faith doctrine that all Catholics believe, besides we all confess the same (credo) beliefs at every Mass all around the world. Is there two protestant denominations from your zillion profess the same doctrine?

I am not arguing with you about the different protestant denominations, I just want us to be clear that they exists, If not tell me the basic doctrine that unifies protestantism other than protesting the teachings of the Catholic faith. Can you please tell me unified doctrine between a Arminian and a Calvanist.

I hope we can get pass this so we can move on.

Peace be with you

 

[mark_a]

My point is that I keep getting bashed over the head with Catholics telling me that the REAL problem is Disunity among Protestants and that the Catholics are 100% unified, proven by the 30,000 denominations. That Catholic Unity proves everything. When in reality there are not 30,000 denominations AND Catholics AREN’T 100% unified in the first place.

Again, Catholics are required about very little. There are a few non-negotables though. But if you look at the moral teachings of the Church, she stands alone.

I say I believe in teh Arminian version of Grace… they say “See ANOTHER DENOMINATION!!” but if they say they believe in teh Thomist version of Grace, I’m supposed to think “Ahh see how unified the Thomists and Molinists are?”

I’m pointing out a double standard here, and in response I get someone telling me to pray for discernment about my “problem”, A sidetrack to an abortion issue, and something about crumpets (I think).

Point taken.

 

[mark_a]

They affect the first of the two great commandments… How can you love God if you can’t agree on who God is in the first place?

My kids each see me in a different light, but they love me.

 

[mark_a]

I hear catholics say this sort of thing often. Nobody in the Church “came up with the teachings about the Trinity”. Those teachings were given by God to the Apostles and were then handed to the Fathers through Tradition. At Nicea, the Fathers didn’t “come up” with anything. They just bore witness to the common Tradition that had been passed to them.

Was there no discussion?

 

[Syele]

I have never heard of it among american protestant faiths, thats why yours interested me.

that is just what I meant… it’s not an “American protestant faith” It’s a system of theology.

I am only confused about, why you think, there is only one protestantism, when I last checked there are not two different protestant beliefs that agree on one doctrine let alone practice one anothers doctrine.

Protestantism IS divided. but it is not SO divided that no two agree on anything at all. that is a major misconception.

Please dont get offended because of my confusion of the many different protestant denominations.

I’m not offended. I am explaining it to you where you appear confused. there are not that many protestant ideologies. Maybe 10 (assuming I missed a couple with my count of approx 6-7). I am also pointing out Catholics have different ideologies as well.

Apparently you do believe there exists many protestant belief systems, according to your statement above,

I did in both threads list 6-7 for you depending on how you count.

I believe you error in thinking that Catholics have many belief systems. Sure you can find many Catholics differing on opinions, and cultural differences, and language differences, Check your sources again, you will find the ones that differ are still unified in the same doctrine, this cant change, to do so will make you non catholic. those that dont follow the Catholic doctrine from 2000 yrs of teaching it, you will find them where you are Protesting the one true faith from the beginning of Christianity.

Do you know what those 5 things I listed are? I have read a lot about them. they are not all the same and the official teaching as far as I can find is that Catholics can believe whichever and can’t call one another heretics over it. The differences are NOT purely cultural, or language differences. And if they are “Protesting the one true faith from the beginning of Christianity” why did the Catholic Church say it’s ok and not to call them heretics?

but only share a common name and common basics. that is why the whole Bible isn’t infallibly interpreted by the Catholic Church, too many things are allowed to be decided for yourselves. Oh wait, that is what Catholics accuse us of! We learned it from the Catholics!

**This is a comical statement, thanks for the entertainment. The Catholic Church will not move from the teachings of Jesus and the first apostles. The Catholic Church holds to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Your right, The Church does give me the liberty to read the inspired word of God, and recieve my personal enlightment from the word of God.
The safed guard of infallibility that the Holy Spirit gives the Church from teaching error, keeps me from starting my own protestant denomination. If my personal revelation does not fit with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, I cannot teach it to someone else as a doctrine, thats the liberty The Catholic Church protects her body from profanity and error. **

the Church doesn’t infallibly interpret much Scripture, do you ignore that which has not been infallibly interpreted for you?

I am not pretending that there are more than two protestant belief systems, I find you to intelligent to be illusional about the many protestant denominations that exists. And yes there is only one Catholic faith doctrine that all Catholics believe, besides we all confess the same (credo) beliefs at every Mass all around the world. Is there two protestant denominations from your zillion profess the same doctrine?

Most every Protestant denomination professes the Nicene Creed. of the 6 belief systems I listed for you, there are numerous Denominations that adhere to each one. Calvinism is still Calvinism weather it’s professed by a Southern Baptist or a Presbyterian.

I am not arguing with you about the different protestant denominations, I just want us to be clear that they exists, If not tell me the basic doctrine that unifies protestantism other than protesting the teachings of the Catholic faith. Can you please tell me unified doctrine between a Arminian and a Calvanist.

Everything in the Nicene Creed.

I hope we can get pass this so we can move on.

Peace be with you

and also with you.

 

[VARC]

Was there no discussion?

The “discussion” was bearing witness to what they were handed by the Apostolic Fathers. They did not “come up” with the “teachings of the Trinity” through “dialog and discussion”.

 

[Syele]

Again, Catholics are required about very little. There are a few non-negotables though.

yep that is what I’m saying here.

But if you look at the moral teachings of the Church, she stands alone.

Protestantism may not be completely unified in it, but the Catholic Church hardly stands alone. you will find in me and those in my church fighting abortion just as hard. if you want me to argue for abortion you are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[fbl9]

hi Seyle has your church been fighting against abortion and birth control for at least 1800 years. the catholic church has been.St. Augustine wrote against birth control in the 4th century.Origen wrote against birth control in the early 3rd century.

 

[Syele]

hi Seyle has your church been fighting against abortion and birth control for at least 1800 years. the catholic church has been.St. Augustine wrote against birth control in the 4th century.Origen wrote against birth control in the early 3rd century.

Hi fbl9, I was raped and then gave birth to a beautiful girl and I am raising her as a single mom, despite pressures from non-Christians to abort, and people shunning me as a slut, losing my job and my apartment over it, and having people come and ask rude questions about it in front of my dd and worse than that. If any church professes pro-abortion leanings I would NOT be there. And I could care less if the Catholic Church was for life before the denomination I happen to attend existed. It has NO bearing on my point in this thread. Sidetracking to abortion cause you don’t want to discuss multiple ideologies in the Catholic church is rude. If you can’t stick to the discussion back off.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Hi fbl9, I was raped and then gave birth to a beautiful girl and I am raising her as a single mom, despite pressures from non-Christians to abort, and people shunning me as a slut, losing my job and my apartment over it, and having people come and ask rude questions about it in front of my dd and worse than that. If any church professes pro-abortion leanings I would NOT be there. And I could care less if the Catholic Church was for life before the denomination I happen to attend existed. It has NO bearing on my point in this thread. Sidetracking to abortion cause you don’t want to discuss multiple ideologies in the Catholic church is rude. If you can’t stick to the discussion back off.

Wow, Syele… I think my heart skipped a beat when I read that. Our world, well all I can say is it really is going to you-know-where in a hand basket and people keep trying to blame God’s Church for it instead of focusing their anger where it belongs!

I too struggle to voice UNITY between catholics and protestants, hence a forum I started a LONG time ago. But funny, not a lot of activity because all people want to do is argue and point fingers. Go figure. Sometimes I want to give up on the idea because humans are humans and it seems that some want to keep fighting with brothers and sisters rather than follow Christ’s Great Commission to GO make disciples of men - but God tells me that He has plans for me so I keep keepin’ on…