My rant on Unity

[Syele]

Wow, Syele… I think my heart skipped a beat when I read that. Our world, well all I can say is it really is going to you-know-where in a hand basket and people keep trying to blame God’s Church for it instead of focusing their anger where it belongs!

I too struggle to voice UNITY between catholics and protestants, hence a forum I started a LONG time ago. But funny, not a lot of activity because all people want to do is argue and point fingers. Go figure. Sometimes I want to give up on the idea because humans are humans and it seems that some want to keep fighting with brothers and sisters rather than follow Christ’s Great Commission to GO make disciples of men - but God tells me that He has plans for me so I keep keepin’ on…

I was just thinking I was too harsh in that post. it just becomes so frustrating when topics cannot be discussed without being derailed to off-topicness and abortion is a sensitive topic with me.

Unity IS important but so is the ability to debate and defend ones faith. The internet lends itself to such debates well… You know, I have never even talked to some of my relatives about issues I commonly talk about here? It’s because the internet allows for a detachment that is not present with the people you see daily. If My mother and I disagree it could drive a wedge between us where it wasn’t there before, affecting everyportion of my life. It’s simply easier to talk about politics and religion to strangers. As a result, a forum just to talk about all the things we have in common eventually gets boring. Should it be that way? probably not. But its Human nature. It reminds me of some news programs people tried to run on TV a few years back with only good news reported. People thought it was a great idea, but they quickly went off the air for lack of viewers.

 

[Singinbeauty]

I was just thinking I was too harsh in that post. it just becomes so frustrating when topics cannot be discussed without being derailed to off-topicness and abortion is a sensitive topic with me.

Unity IS important but so is the ability to debate and defend ones faith. The internet lends itself to such debates well… You know, I have never even talked to some of my relatives about issues I commonly talk about here? It’s because the internet allows for a detachment that is not present with the people you see daily. If My mother and I disagree it could drive a wedge between us where it wasn’t there before, affecting everyportion of my life. It’s simply easier to talk about politics and religion to strangers. As a result, a forum just to talk about all the things we have in common eventually gets boring. Should it be that way? probably not. But its Human nature. It reminds me of some news programs people tried to run on TV a few years back with only good news reported. People thought it was a great idea, but they quickly went off the air for lack of viewers.

Well I, for one, am glad that you can at least come here and tell your story. It helps bring reality to something that some people have NO clue about. Just what they THINK about it, but have never experienced.

Your post wasn’t too strong. Sometimes when you have never experienced something yourself you have to learn from someone (like you) that you have to pay attention to what you say and how it will affect others. Some have opinions that they want to express but forget who they might be talking to…

 

[fbl9]

Syele:
i myself have never heard of these things which you are posting about. sorry for derailing your thread.i was trying to piont out that the church has been teaching against this for a long time not just something that it just started in the last 100yrs or so.

 

[Syele]

i myself have never heard of these things which you are posting about. sorry for derailing your thread.i was trying to piont out that the church has been teaching against this for a long time not just something that it just started in the last 100yrs or so.

Sorry I responded uncharitably.

 

[fbl9]

thank you Syele. ok . these different camps of theology what are the diferences in them. some of the things you mentioned about hand holders, and dancing liturgy, these sre not items of doctrine that is where the unity is in the same doctrine.

 

[Syele]

thank you Syele. ok . these different camps of theology what are the diferences in them. some of the things you mentioned about hand holders, and dancing liturgy, these sre not items of doctrine that is where the unity is in the same doctrine.

I mentioned those because while they are perfectly acceptable in the Catholic Church to not be considered doctrine, the same types of things ARE counted when counting Protestant denominations. – Double Standard.

then we have more major divisions like Thomists are very similar in many ways to Arminians and Molinists somewhat like Calvinists… Yet the Calvinist/Arminian divide among protestants is definitely cited as dis-unity among protestants, yet the Thomist/Molinist divisions are largely ignored among Catholics. - Double standard again.

 

[fbl9]

hi when i say this church is not in union with that church it is because of a doctrinal matter…ie Presbyterian valid infant baptism…the local church around the corner will rebaptise that same Presbyterian, i do agree the number of 31,000 must be achieved at by taking styles of worship into acount or perhaps this number could be achieved because most non-denominational churches set them selves up as individual churches with no bonds between other non-denom. there each one is counted as a seperate unit…as for the thomist,molinist i will have find more about this because i know nothing about this so i have no more comments on this aspect till later.i also own you an apology for thinking you and your church were thinking of yourselves as the first defenders of the unborn.

 

[Syele]

hi when i say this church is not in union with that church it is because of a doctrinal matter…ie Presbyterian valid infant baptism…the local church around the corner will rebaptise that same Presbyterian, i do agree the number of 31,000 must be achieved at by taking styles of worship into acount or perhaps this number could be achieved because most non-denominational churches set them selves up as individual churches with no bonds between other non-denom. there each one is counted as a seperate unit.

to count a non-denominational chuch as a denomination is kind of out there though for a few reasons… one is they never wanted to be denominational and never set themselves up to be a denomination (hence the name non-denominational) further, the definition of denomination excludes counting individual congregations since a denomination is a group of congregations.

I still see a huge double standard in the argument that Catholics are one and Protestants are divided… most of the protestant divisions I see, descend from or else correspond to Catholic divisions.

I’m not arguing that Protestants are unified… I’m arguing that Catholics are not as unified as they seem to declare they are so often.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

that is just what I meant… it’s not an “American protestant faith” It’s a system of theology.

If it is a system of theology then why are you not in communion with the One Holy Catholic Apostolic faith?

Protestantism IS divided. but it is not SO divided that no two agree on anything at all. that is a major misconception.

**I disagree, if there is one division on doctrinal belief than how can it be from the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit does not conflict in anyway? I think you may have just discredited Protestantism? **

I’m not offended. I am explaining it to you where you appear confused. there are not that many protestant ideologies. Maybe 10 (assuming I missed a couple with my count of approx 6-7).

B]2 different Protestant ideologies is too many, and you just mentioned 6? God is the same he does not change.

I am also pointing out Catholics have different ideologies as well.

**I have to emphatically disagree with you on this one, there is only one Catholic faith. I thinik your ideologies and theological differences does not mean that Catholics believe differently, we believe the same. You may challenge your motiffs, but it does not hold water when the individual differences does not change the teachings of the Catholic faith, we are one. Even among those who hold authority in question still believe the same as all **Catholics do.

Do you know what those 5 things I listed are? I have read a lot about them. they are not all the same and the official teaching as far as I can find is that Catholics can believe whichever and can’t call one another heretics over it.

**Do you know why Catholics cannot call themselves heretics over there personal revelations or interpretations?

Because the Pope in Rome, You know Peter?, the one Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom too, and his holy apostolic church says so, their differences does not change Catholic teaching.
Thus we remain One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church. The Holy spirit protects her (the Catholic church) from teaching error.**
the Church doesn’t infallibly interpret much Scripture, do you ignore that which has not been infallibly interpreted for you?

So far I have read every letter, and the Catholic saints, martyrs, and Apostles have not stirred me wrong yet, Whom according to Sacred scripture, Sacred Tradition are all Catholic, Oh I forgot you follow what’s his name Arminian something? Have you read what the early saints taught by the apostles and early Catholic Martyrs interpretation of Scripture taught? oh! I keep forgetting you follow whats his Arminian name?
Most every Protestant denomination professes the Nicene Creed.

Are you sure? because that statement is not true here in the U.S. I have attended Protestant services and not Many profess the Nicened Creed.In fact only 2, and the 2 that I think of today do not follow the teachings of their founders. If you do, then what is it that keeps you from being Catholic? you know the nicene creed comes from the Catholic Church and the teachings of the Apostles, The oath that you swear, is swearing to the one Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Unless you have changed the Nicene Creed also?

of the 6 belief systems I listed for you, there are numerous Denominations that adhere to each one. Calvinism is still Calvinism weather it’s professed by a Southern Baptist or a Presbyterian.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere, what makes these protestant denominations numerous is that they dont adhere to the teachings of their founders, thus you have another protestant denomination. At least from this Catholic perspective.

I hope you can keep up the pace among these many different ideology posts?

Keep up the faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Syele]

I disagree, if there is one division on doctrinal belief than how can it be from the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit does not conflict in anyway? I think you may have just discredited Protestantism?

If so, then Catholics are discredited as well as they do have one division. They simply declared it against the rules to claim either side is a heretic. That doesn’t negate the division.

2 different Protestant ideologies is too many, and you just mentioned 6? God is the same he does not change.

I also mentioned 5 Catholic ones. Yet you refuse to address them?

**I have to emphatically disagree with you on this one, there is only one Catholic faith. I thinik your ideologies and theological differences does not mean that Catholics believe differently, we believe the same. You may challenge your motiffs, but it does not hold water when the individual differences does not change the teachings of the Catholic faith, we are one. Even among those who hold authority in question still believe the same as all **Catholics do.

Again… did you even look at what those teachings ARE?

Do you know why Catholics cannot call themselves heretics over there personal revelations or interpretations?

Those ideologies are not simply personal revelations.

Because the Pope in Rome, You know Peter?, the one Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom too, and his holy apostolic church says so, their differences does not change Catholic teaching.
Thus we remain One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church. The Holy spirit protects her (the Catholic church) from teaching error.

They say what? that Catholics can believe any of those three possibly 5 things they feel like… even though they all contradict? IF they all contradict how can they all be right? They can’t.

So far I have read every letter, and the Catholic saints, martyrs, and Apostles have not stirred me wrong yet, Whom according to Sacred scripture, Sacred Tradition are all Catholic, Oh I forgot you follow what’s his name Arminian something? Have you read what the early saints taught by the apostles and early Catholic Martyrs interpretation of Scripture taught? oh! I keep forgetting you follow whats his Arminian name?

huh? I follow God. Arminian beliefs are very similar to Thomist ones. (HInt: Thomists are Catholics Does that mean they don’t follow God but Thomas?)

Are you sure? because that statement is not true here in the U.S. I have attended Protestant services and not Many profess the Nicened Creed.In fact only 2, and the 2 that I think of today do not follow the teachings of their founders. If you do, then what is it that keeps you from being Catholic? you know the nicene creed comes from the Catholic Church and the teachings of the Apostles, The oath that you swear, is swearing to the one Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Unless you have changed the Nicene Creed also?

Just cause they don’t say it at every service does not mean they do not believe it. and catholic also means universal. Why are you refusing to address the Catholic Divisions I brought up?

Ok, now we are getting somewhere, what makes these protestant denominations numerous is that they dont adhere to the teachings of their founders, thus you have another protestant denomination. At least from this Catholic perspective.

How do you get that? their founders agreed with these ideologies… John Wesley (for one example) agreed with Jacobus Arminus. So now, that makes Methodists Arminian… How is that not agreeing with their founders??

I hope you can keep up the pace among these many different ideology posts?

I’m just waiting for you to address the Catholic divisions you are ignoring.

If I say there is a pigeon on your roof and one on mine and you answer “See! There is one on your roof!”, does that somehow remove the one on your own roof? I don’t think it does.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

If so, then Catholics are discredited as well as they do have one division. They simply declared it against the rules to claim either side is a heretic. That doesn’t negate the division.

The 5 divisions that you speak of, does not and have not changed the doctrine or theology of the Catholic Church’s teaching, I for one do not follow multiple teachings on Grace. The one I follow has 2000 years of Sacred Tradition,not to mention Sacred Scripture following. So to answer your accusations of me ignoring these topics, does not justify your argument against the Catholic doctrine it still remains the same and it will not change.Thus you have to come up with a better argument than the five different view points of Grace. It does not hold water because neither view has changed what has been believed for 2000 years of Catholic teaching. Now if there was a slight change I will be asking you for directions to your church, but the Catholic Doctrine on Grace has not Changed.

I would like to get more information on the Arminian Christian Theology.

 

[VARC]

Syele;3322503:

If so, then Catholics are discredited as well as they do have one division. They simply declared it against the rules to claim either side is a heretic. That doesn’t negate the division.

The 5 divisions that you speak of, does not and have not changed the doctrine or theology of the Catholic Church’s teaching, I for one do not follow multiple teachings on Grace. The one I follow has 2000 years of Sacred Tradition,not to mention Sacred Scripture following. So to answer your accusations of me ignoring these topics, does not justify your argument against the Catholic doctrine it still remains the same and it will not change.Thus you have to come up with a better argument than the five different view points of Grace. It does not hold water because neither view has changed what has been believed for 2000 years of Catholic teaching. Now if there was a slight change I will be asking you for directions to your church, but the Catholic Doctrine on Grace has not Changed.

I would like to get more information on the Arminian Christian Theology.

Just for the sake of clarification, what is “the Catholic Doctrine on Grace”? I know the Augustinian view on grace and from what I know of Molinism it is a directly contradictory view.

 

[Syele]

Syele;3322503:

If so, then Catholics are discredited as well as they do have one division. They simply declared it against the rules to claim either side is a heretic. That doesn’t negate the division.

The 5 divisions that you speak of, does not and have not changed the doctrine or theology of the Catholic Church’s teaching, I for one do not follow multiple teachings on Grace. The one I follow has 2000 years of Sacred Tradition,not to mention Sacred Scripture following. So to answer your accusations of me ignoring these topics, does not justify your argument against the Catholic doctrine it still remains the same and it will not change.Thus you have to come up with a better argument than the five different view points of Grace. It does not hold water because neither view has changed what has been believed for 2000 years of Catholic teaching. Now if there was a slight change I will be asking you for directions to your church, but the Catholic Doctrine on Grace has not Changed.
.

I never said the doctrines on Grace changed, only that division is allowed over them. the fact that such division has always been allowed doesn’t mean there is no division. the fact you only subscribe to one of them doesn’t negate that another Catholic disagrees with you and subscribes to a Different one of them. If all Catholics subscribed to only ONE of the 5 then there would be no divisions on the subject. but that isn’t the case. Continuity and unity are two separate things.

I would like to get more information on the Arminian Christian Theology

while wiki is certainly not scholarly, it’s a good place ot get a general overview: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

In 1618 (I believe it was?) the followers of Arminius (the Remonstrants) wrote up five points they believed Calvinists were incorrect on. There followed a Synod of Dort. There the Calvinists made a rebuttal to the remonstrants and created the 5 points of Calvinism (TULIP) in response to the remonstrants 5 points. You can see the remonstrants 5 points and TULIP at : the-highway.com/compare.html

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12;3322520:

Just for the sake of clarification, what is “the Catholic Doctrine on Grace”? I know the Augustinian view on grace and from what I know of Molinism it is a directly contradictory view.

The OP has strategically placed here 5 different catholic view points and what the OP calls differences among Catholics. I argue our doctrine is sound it does not change and it has not changed. whats your view on Catholic Theology on Grace?

 

[Syele]

Gabriel of 12;3322520:

Just for the sake of clarification, what is “the Catholic Doctrine on Grace”? I know the Augustinian view on grace and from what I know of Molinism it is a directly contradictory view.

As far as I can tell from reading, Catholics are allowed to believe Molinism, Augustinian, or Thomist views on Grace even thogh they are all different!

If youwant a starting place to read about them, this link seems to have short descriptions of each under **II. CATHOLIC SYSTEMS OF GRACE **Controversies

it’s the only short thing I’ve found…mostly you find really long articles on just one or another of them.

 

[VARC]

The OP has strategically placed here 5 different catholic view points and what the OP calls differences among Catholics. I argue our doctrine is sound it does not change and it has not changed. whats your view on Catholic Theology on Grace?

I see what Steyle is getting at. Augustine’s view on grace are contrary to Molina views on grace (Augustine would probably have viewed Molina as semi-Pelagian). You are saying that your “doctrine is sound it does not changeand has not changed”. So the question is what is the Catholic doctrine on grace? Is it Augustinian or Molinian?

My view is that the Catholic Church doesn’t have a specific view on grace. It allows some liberty on the doctrine. You can accept Augustine view or Molina’s contradictory view and be in good standing with the church. Steyle’s point is that catholics have division of faith as well as protestants and he/she is right. The only thing that catholics have that protestants don’t is unity of government.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12;3322520:

I never said the doctrines on Grace changed, only that division is allowed over them. the fact that such division has always been allowed doesn’t mean there is no division. the fact you only subscribe to one of them doesn’t negate that another Catholic disagrees with you and subscribes to a Different one of them. If all Catholics subscribed to only ONE of the 5 then there would be no divisions on the subject. but that isn’t the case. Continuity and unity are two separate things.

I have to disagree again on the 5 different view points, is allowed in the Catholic church to be believed by Catholics? As strict as the Catholic Church staying with the apostles teaching, I find your findings hard to believe. I believe it is the case that Catholics subscribe to one revealed Grace not 5 different ones.

Hey thanks for the tips I will do some more research on Arminiians. Thank you so much

 

[Syele]

I see what Steyle is getting at. Augustine’s view on grace are contrary to Molina views on grace (Augustine would probably have viewed Molina as semi-Pelagian). You are saying that your “doctrine is sound it does not changeand has not changed”. So the question is what is the Catholic doctrine on grace? Is it Augustinian or Molinian?

My view is that the Catholic Church doesn’t have a specific view on grace. It allows some liberty on the doctrine. You can accept Augustine view or Molina’s contradictory view and be in good standing with the church. Syele’s point is that catholics have division of faith as well as protestants and he/she is right. The only thing that catholics have that protestants don’t is unity of government.

Thank you VARC that is what I’m saying. (and I’m a she BTW)

 

[Cathy]

The only thing that catholics have that protestants don’t is unity of government.

When Protestants believe only in the symbolic presence of Christ, they deny His real presence in the Eucharist: His real continuing intervention into the matter of His creation; His real continuing presence with us in fulfillment of His promise that He would never leave us nor forsake us. The only valid Sacraments most Protestants have, and it is by no means unimportant, is Baptism. I have to admit that by the Grace of God, Protestants do a lot with that one Sacrament. Imagine what they could do with the fullness of the Faith!!!

 

[Syele]

I have to disagree again on the 5 different view points, is allowed in the Catholic church to be believed by Catholics? As strict as the Catholic Church staying with the apostles teaching, I find your findings hard to believe. I believe it is the case that Catholics subscribe to one revealed Grace not 5 different ones.

Check out the link I gave before gratia.info/controversies.htm under **II. CATHOLIC SYSTEMS OF GRACE
**
Then look them up individually from sources you trust. It is not my goal to make stuff up. A footnote I found also claims the Church ruled on this in 1748; That 3 of them were acceptable teachings. This appears to me to have been in spite of them not agreeing, the footnote didn’t mention the other two so I’m not sure what the Church declared on them.

Hey thanks for the tips I will do some more research on Arminiians. Thank you so much

you are welcome.