My rant on Unity

[Syele]

When Protestants believe only in the symbolic presence of Christ, they deny His real presence in the Eucharist: His real continuing intervention into the matter of His creation; His real continuing presence with us in fulfillment of His promise that He would never leave us nor forsake us. The only valid Sacraments most Protestants have, and it is by no means unimportant, is Baptism. I have to admit that by the Grace of God, Protestants do a lot with that one Sacrament. Imagine what they could do with the fullness of the Faith!!!

We are talking about Unity.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Syele;

Sorry, but I am a little confused about how differing views of grace is tantamount to doctrines among many Protestant denominations (infant baptism vs adult baptism vs total immersion; just bread vs. Real Presence; etc).

What unifies us, when most nonCatholics get over “what they heard about those foreign idolaters” is what many FORMER Protestant clergy and laity have written about (See GKC, Newman, Gerard Manley Hopkins): it is the love of God for us.

How we do this (as Catholics) is our liturgy. Our liturgy is not dependent upon HOW we view or interpret the Gift of Grace.

In other words, we do not build a whole sect around it. I think this is what some of the Catholic posters have been trying to get to.

God bless you and your beautiful daughter!

Robert

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I see what Steyle is getting at. Augustine’s view on grace are contrary to Molina views on grace (Augustine would probably have viewed Molina as semi-Pelagian). You are saying that your “doctrine is sound it does not changeand has not changed”. So the question is what is the Catholic doctrine on grace? Is it Augustinian or Molinian?

My view is that the Catholic Church doesn’t have a specific view on grace. It allows some liberty on the doctrine. You can accept Augustine view or Molina’s contradictory view and be in good standing with the church. Steyle’s point is that catholics have division of faith as well as protestants and he/she is right. The only thing that catholics have that protestants don’t is unity of government.

thanks for your reply it does good to get outside insight while one is indepth discussion.

I follow along those lines, although, if you were to check the Cathechism of the Catholic church it gives 25 definitions of Grace on how Grace is applied to human life.
I need to clarify, it doesnt matter if Augustine, Molonist, or the moon describes grace, a Catholic follows the authority of the Catholic Church that is the point I have been trying to make. Now if the Grace in question is not taught by the Magesterium of the Catholic Church, then it is not Catholic teaching. My main point is Catholics can differ, but we hold the magesterium in authority on faith and morals. Iam sorry I dont hold that one who professes before God the father the Credo, and believes different than that of the Catholic Church, is not in communion with the Catholic Church, Thus protestantism, but a individual Catholic has no authority to dictate Catholic belief or doctrine, not even to change doctrine.

This is why I hold my position, Augustine and Molonist disagreement on Grace does not change or make differences of Catholic Doctrine.

 

[VARC]

When Protestants believe only in the symbolic presence of Christ, they deny His real presence in the Eucharist: His real continuing intervention into the matter of His creation; His real continuing presence with us in fulfillment of His promise that He would never leave us nor forsake us. The only valid Sacraments most Protestants have, and it is by no means unimportant, is Baptism. I have to admit that by the Grace of God, Protestants do a lot with that one Sacrament. Imagine what they could do with the fullness of the Faith!!!

I think you’re moving off topic a little bit. Catholics repeatly say that protestants are divided in faith and catholics are contrasted as this ever so unified religion. But as Syele has pointed out this isn’t exactly true.

Grace is only one doctrine where there is a diversity of belief. Limbo, Nulla Salus Extra Ecclesium (its true meaning), Mary medaitrix of all graces, ect, are all examples where there is a variety of beliefs that are permitted. And those are just a few issues debated among conservative catholics.

There are also plenty of liberal catholics in good standing with their bishops that believe in women’s ordination, abortion, and gay issues. Also there are groups that are not under the Vatican government such as the SSPX, sedevacantist, and the See of Utrect, all of which claim to be catholic.

So there is plenty of divsion of faith amongst catholics. But what they do have is centralized authoritarian government that draws the line between what is acceptable and what is not. Protestants don’t have that nor do I beleive they want it.

 

[VARC]

thanks for your reply it does good to get outside insight while one is indepth discussion.

I follow along those lines, although, if you were to check the Cathechism of the Catholic church it gives 25 definitions of Grace on how Grace is applied to human life.
I need to clarify, it doesnt matter if Augustine, Molonist, or the moon describes grace, a Catholic follows the authority of the Catholic Church that is the point I have been trying to make. Now if the Grace in question is not taught by the Magesterium of the Catholic Church, then it is not Catholic teaching. My main point is Catholics can differ, but we hold the magesterium in authority on faith and morals. Iam sorry I dont hold that one who professes before God the father the Credo, and believes different than that of the Catholic Church, is not in communion with the Catholic Church, Thus protestantism, but a individual Catholic has no authority to dictate Catholic belief or doctrine, not even to change doctrine.

This is why I hold my position, Augustine and Molonist disagreement on Grace does not change or make differences of Catholic Doctrine.

But you did not tell us what the catholic doctrine on grace is. When you answer that question, you will see syele’s point.

 

[Syele]

Syele;

Sorry, but I am a little confused about how differing views of grace is tantamount to doctrines among many Protestant denominations (infant baptism vs adult baptism vs total immersion; just bread vs. Real Presence; etc).

What unifies us, when most nonCatholics get over “what they heard about those foreign idolaters” is what many FORMER Protestant clergy and laity have written about (See GKC, Newman, Gerard Manley Hopkins): it is the love of God for us.

How we do this (as Catholics) is our liturgy. Our liturgy is not dependent upon HOW we view or interpret the Gift of Grace.

In other words, we do not build a whole sect around it. I think this is what some of the Catholic posters have been trying to get to.

God bless you and your beautiful daughter!

Robert

Robert, I’m in no way claiming that Protestants are all one. We do agree on the basic tenants of Christianity, that is why we are considered Christians, even by Catholics.

To simply say you do not build a whole sect around it doesn’t really address the issue though. The issue is that there is this argument floating around that Catholics are so much better cause of unity… but really if you ignore the differences then those are areas your adherents never get sound teaching in. I grew up in non-denominational churches… Churches that taught it is wrong to build a sect around any issues that all Christians should worship together. That sounds all nice and good and lovey dovey but it doesn’t eliminate divisions. It actually makes them worse. now you have a body of believers who do not agree on what they believe, therefore they cannot teach it soundly because they are not unified in all things within their own body. So what happens is either fights break out that are never really solved resulting in people calling brothers and sisters in Christ Heretics (apparently this seems to be what was happening with the Catholic Grace controversies and thus why the Church had to declare them all “acceptable” and no calling one another Heretics allowed anymore) or you get the other end where now cause everyone is right, no one can teach what is really right cause it will contradict what someone else who is also right says. This results in a stalemate so no one teaches it and future generations don’t know what to believe.

I saw it in the non-denominational churches and I see the same thing in these “Grace controversies.” Yet as I read these things I have Catholics telling me that they DO believe all teh same and there is NO division at all. So I have to ask is there division or not? IF it’s not “important divisions” for whatever reason, why are the SAME divisions among protestants listed as “important” ones or at least important enough to be counted as a denomination by Catholics even if the protestants don’t consider said item a division?

there seem to be a lot of rules here that make xthing ok for Catholics but not ok for Protestants. On one level you my superficially make yourselves look good, but on the other you aren’t making people want to join you.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I think you’re moving off topic a little bit. Catholics repeatly say that protestants are divided in faith and catholics are contrasted as this ever so unified religion. But as Syele has pointed out this isn’t exactly true.

Grace is only one doctrine where there is a diversity of belief. Limbo, Nulla Salus Extra Ecclesium (its true meaning), Mary medaitrix of all graces, ect, are all examples where there is a variety of beliefs that are permitted. And those are just a few issues debated among conservative catholics.

There are also plenty of liberal catholics in good standing with their bishops that believe in women’s ordination, abortion, and gay issues. Also there are groups that are not under the Vatican government such as the SSPX, sedevacantist, and the See of Utrect, all of which claim to be catholic.

So there is plenty of divsion of faith amongst catholics. But what they do have is centralized authoritarian government that draws the line between what is acceptable and what is not. Protestants don’t have that nor do I beleive they want it

Hi VARC, I have to respectfully disagree, you cannot equate womans ordination, gay issues under the umbrella of Catholicism, You are drawing a fine line between acclaimed catholic teaching and what is authentic Catholic teaching. What you addressed above is not Roman Catholic Teaching, I would like to make this clear. I dont know if you equate what you listed above to Orthodox Catholic teaching, but it sure aint Roman Catholic doctrine. there is no division among Roman Catholic doctrine. Now when you get into cultural and language divides thats different. /QUOTE]

 

[VARC]

**Hi VARC, I have to respectfully disagree, you cannot equate womans ordination, gay issues under the umbrella of Catholicism, You are drawing a fine line between acclaimed catholic teaching and what is authentic Catholic teaching. What you addressed above is not Roman Catholic Teaching, I would like to make this clear. I dont know if you equate what you listed above to Orthodox Catholic teaching, but it sure aint Roman Catholic doctrine. there is no division among Roman Catholic doctrine. Now when you get into cultural and language divides thats different. **

My point was that, rightly or wrongly, many catholics believe and publically profess what Rome does not allow and they are still in good standing with their local bishops, receiving communion publically. This is a grave scandal and until the Catholic Church deals with this problem perhaps it might be inappropriate to to boast to the protestants about catholic unity (not that you’re doing the boasting).

Also, even if you don’t count the issues that catholics dissent on there are a few examples that any catholic may have a diversity of belief and still remain in good standing with Rome(Limbo, Nulla Salus Extra Ecclesium [its true meaning], Mary medaitrix of all graces, ect

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

But you did not tell us what the catholic doctrine on grace is. When you answer that question, you will see syele’s point.

You cant honestly believe I am going to write 15 pages of thread on the Catholic church’s teaching on Grace? That does not do it I am sorry, I have the definitions of the Catholic doctrine of Grace, what Augustine or Monolists believe it does not or will not change the Catholic teaching on Grace, that is taught to all believers is the same one. It is not different. to confirm this pick up any Catechism of the Catholic Church and look it up , its all the same.

In summary, there is still only One Holy Catholic, Apostolic Church, in One Lord, One Baptism, One faith. Protestantism does not hold to a single doctrinal unity.

 

[Syele]

Also, even if you don’t count the issues that catholics dissent on there are a few examples that any catholic may have a diversity of belief and still remain in good standing with Rome(Limbo, Nulla Salus Extra Ecclesium [its true meaning], Mary medaitrix of all graces, ect

It wasn’t my intent to count things that Catholics are not supposed to disagree on but the things that diversity is allowed for. A fair comparison would be trying to claim non-Christian cults as Protestants. Just because someone claims to be something doesn’t mean they are. And I See enough allowed diversity among Catholics to warrant my point.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

there seem to be a lot of rules here that make xthing ok for Catholics but not ok for Protestants. On one level you my superficially make yourselves look good, but on the other you aren’t making people want to join you.

Syele;

Unity should be unity of doctrine. Not unity of Liturgy (we have 7 churches and 13 Rites and I Use-Anglican-in the Catholic Church) or of discipline (married and unmarried priests; unmarried Patriarchs; unmarried Bishops).

Many Catholics ( I work with them!) think ‘Roman Catholic Church’ is the name of the worldwide Church. Many do not know that the original language of our Liturgy was koine Greek (hence the fossil in the Roman Rite of the ‘Kyrie’)

Or that the Bible was translated 8 times into Old and Middle German BEFORE Luther came along and wanted to ax Revelations and most of the Letters in ‘his’ Bible.

That is the Unity I am writing of: not small, of no consequence, things about how Grace is given or received.

The fools fight over those things (and our Church has had a history of fools in spades, after all, we are a Church of sinners) and have down evil in their version of what constitutes Christianity.

As to differences: we have them in our Orders and in our Rites.

But they are NOT differences of DOGMA or DOCTRINE.

In other words, you will be hard pressed to find a Catholic who

is a Symbolic communion/age of reason baptising/predestination/it’s just an ordinance not a ‘sacrament’ believer.

Protestant denominations have these doctrines and some have taken the Catholic view on a few of them.

That is where Unity is under stress, but it is the Grace of God (regardless of the scholastic view) that keeps us Whole.

Robert

 

[VARC]

Syele already talked about grace but I would point out Limbo. St. Thomas believed that unbaptized babies can’t go to heaven but don’t go to hell either. Augustine said that Limbo was a Pelagian myth and that all unbaptized babies burn in hell. And Benedict XVI just released a document stating that it is perfectly acceptable to believe that all babies go to heaven. All of these ideas are catholics doctrines but you can choose which one you believe and still be a good catholic but that hardly constitutes a unity of faith.

 

[Syele]

You cant honestly believe I am going to write 15 pages of thread on the Catholic church’s teaching on Grace? That does not do it I am sorry, I have the definitions of the Catholic doctrine of Grace, what Augustine or Monolists believe it does not or will not change the Catholic teaching on Grace, that is taught to all believers is the same one. It is not different. to confirm this pick up any Catechism of the Catholic Church and look it up , its all the same.

In summary, there is still only One Holy Catholic, Apostolic Church, in One Lord, One Baptism, One faith. Protestantism does not hold to a single doctrinal unity.

Augustine and Molinists believe different things but both are acceptable according the the Catholic Church, All I can gather from this information is that the CCC must be vague enough in it’s wording to allow for either. Molinists, Thomists and Augustinians are not any of them considered outside of Catholic approved teachings. I don’t believe you are even supposed to be saying they are…

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

My point was that, rightly or wrongly, many catholics believe and publically profess what Rome does not allow and they are still in good standing with their local bishops, receiving communion publically. This is a grave scandal and until the Catholic Church deals with this problem perhaps it might be inappropriate to to boast to the protestants about catholic unity (not that you’re doing the boasting).

Also, even if you don’t count the issues that catholics dissent on there are a few examples that any catholic may have a diversity of belief and still remain in good standing with Rome(Limbo, Nulla Salus Extra Ecclesium [its true meaning], Mary medaitrix of all graces, ect

Good grief, I did not think we were talking about social issues and disagreement, the Catholic Church will have these until Jesus comes again.Its the doctrine issues that the Catholic church has kept them, and protestantism has changed them.

 

[VARC]

Syele;

But they are NOT differences of DOGMA or DOCTRINE.

.

Robert

You are talking right past her. The Augustinian teaching on grace and Molinian teaching on grace are two contradictitory doctrines on grace. Some catholics hold one view and some hold the other view but they are two different contradictitory doctrines nonetheless which constitutes a diversity of belief in the church

 

[VARC]

Good grief, I did not think we were talking about social issues and disagreement, the Catholic Church will have these until Jesus comes again.Its the doctrine issues that the Catholic church has kept them, and protestantism has changed them.

Limbo, Mary mediatrix of all graces, NSEE, are hardly social issues. They are religious doctrines.

 

[Syele]

Syele;

Unity should be unity of doctrine. Not unity of Liturgy (we have 7 churches and 13 Rites and I Use-Anglican-in the Catholic Church) or of discipline (married and unmarried priests; unmarried Patriarchs; unmarried Bishops).

Many Catholics ( I work with them!) think ‘Roman Catholic Church’ is the name of the worldwide Church. Many do not know that the original language of our Liturgy was koine Greek (hence the fossil in the Roman Rite of the ‘Kyrie’)

Or that the Bible was translated 8 times into Old and Middle German BEFORE Luther came along and wanted to ax Revelations and most of the Letters in ‘his’ Bible.

That is the Unity I am writing of: not small, of no consequence, things about how Grace is given or received.

The fools fight over those things (and our Church has had a history of fools in spades, after all, we are a Church of sinners) and have down evil in their version of what constitutes Christianity.

As to differences: we have them in our Orders and in our Rites.

But they are NOT differences of DOGMA or DOCTRINE.

In other words, you will be hard pressed to find a Catholic who

is a Symbolic communion/age of reason baptising/predestination/it’s just an ordinance not a ‘sacrament’ believer.

Protestant denominations have these doctrines and some have taken the Catholic view on a few of them.

That is where Unity is under stress, but it is the Grace of God (regardless of the scholastic view) that keeps us Whole.

Robert

but yet when Protestant denominations are counted, things like if they clap during worship are counted as separate denominations. That is inconsistent since you certainly would not count such a thing when counting up types of Catholics.

Further Protestants may not be unified on the same issues Catholics are, but we are unified on many things. That really really is beside the point. This thread is not saying “Protestants are not divided” It was never meant to say that. So listing out stuff like symbolism in communion and baptism of infants is really off track.

You can write of whatever kind of unity you like. I am addressing the Catholics who insist that Catholics are unified in EVERYTHING. I’m sorry but you are not unified in everything.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Limbo, Mary mediatrix of all graces, NSEE, are hardly social issues. They are religious doctrines.

First of all Limbo is not a doctrine period. secondly, Mary mediatrix of all graces. is not a topic of debate it is doctrine. the difference or the misunderstandings is what needs to be discussed with those holding an issue to the already doctrine. This is my point, no matter who has a difference of opinion of Catholic doctrine, it does not change, whether we like or not. I cant say the same for Protestant doctrine. Sure Catholics might disagree with an misunderstanding of a defined doctrine, until they have it explained it makes sense, and remain Catholic.

 

[Syele]

First of all Limbo is not a doctrine period. secondly, Mary mediatrix of all graces. is not a topic of debate it is doctrine. the difference or the misunderstandings is what needs to be discussed with those holding an issue to the already doctrine. This is my point, no matter who has a difference of opinion of Catholic doctrine, it does not change, whether we like or not. I cant say the same for Protestant doctrine. Sure Catholics might disagree with an misunderstanding of a defined doctrine, until they have it explained it makes sense, and remain Catholic.

So in comparison with the CCC, Which one is the correct explanation of God’s Grace, Molinist, Augustinian, or Thomist? Or is it one of the other two? And on what Church defined Doctrine do you base your answer on? If it’s only about misunderstandings of already defined doctrine, then you can find the answers to these questions for me.

 

[VARC]

The entire argument depends on semantics. It is kind of unfair to lump all protestants together because catholics don’t want that done to them.

I pointed out the liberal catholics in the church but that didn’t count. Well why do you count the liberal protestants? Liberal catholics don’t listen to the pope but liberal protestants don’t profess the 5 fundamentals. Who gets to decide who is a “real” catholic? The pope, right? Well who gets to decide who is a real protestant christian? You? Pat Robertson?

You see it all depends on semantics and who gets to dictate the terms of membership in that group. Depending on how you group different people will determine the unity of faith of that group. I bet if you grouped just the fundalmentalist togther they wouldn’t look so divided in faith anymore.

It’s a pretty weak argument against protestantism and catholics should focus a more substantive arguments.