My RCIA journey was all for nothing

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I went through RCIA from September 30 of last year to March 31 of this year. It was all for nothing. Because of my unresolved problems with holy days of obligation, Lent, annullments, and a fiew other things, I can’t join the Church, because I would be lying to the Church, and possibly to God, if I made a full profession of faith just before Confirmation. I made a YouTube video about this, and it can be found below.
youtube.com/watch?v=LzA_0q1xW3E

I’m very disheartened, because I put a huge effort into my conversion process, and I spent a lot of money on transportation to and from church, and now I’m back where I started, except that now, I have some Catholic beliefs that I don’t know what to do with. I’m just another confused Protestant. I may try a conservative Episcopal church, since they have similar beliefs to mine.
 
I went through RCIA from September 30 of last year to March 31 of this year. It was all for nothing. Because of my unresolved problems with holy days of obligation, Lent, annullments, and a fiew other things, I can’t join the Church, because I would be lying to the Church, and possibly to God, if I made a full profession of faith just before Confirmation. I made a YouTube video about this, and it can be found below.
youtube.com/watch?v=LzA_0q1xW3E

I’m very disheartened, because I put a huge effort into my conversion process, and I spent a lot of money on transportation to and from church, and now I’m back where I started, except that now, I have some Catholic beliefs that I don’t know what to do with. I’m just another confused Protestant. I may try a conservative Episcopal church, since they have similar beliefs to mine.
Josh,

I believe that you may gotten two things confused. The profession of faith says that you believe that everything the Church proclaims to be revealed by Christ. The holy days of obligation and lent are not points of revelation, they are points of discipline and spirituality.

The Church observes Lent as a period of deeper reflection on the significance of interior conversion needed by all of us. Conversion is a point of revelation. Whether we have a specific season in which we place a greater emphais on on-going conversion or not, is a tradition that dates back to the early fathers of the Church. The faith of the Church is built upon scripture, tradition and the magisterium. Much of what we do is the result of hindsight. The Church looks back on what was revealed by Christ and comes to a deeper understanding. As the old saying goes, "hind-sight is always 20/20, because it helps you connect all the dots.

The holy days of obligation are also found in the scriptures. From the OT to the NT we find the community observed certain days as special to the Lord. Jesus and his disciples observed them. Remember the Passover and the feast of Tabernacles. Jesus observed them with his disciples, as well as all the other Jewish holy days of obligation. He observed the Sabbath or Shabat as it was called.

In Luke’s gospel we get a glimpse of the Holy Family observing the holy days of obligation. They made the pilgrimage when Jesus was 12. Mary presented herself for the feast of purification in the temple as prescribed in the Torah. The early Christians celebrated and observed the Jewish holy days and the resurrection of the Lord. They also observed the lenten period as Jesus had observed it for forty days and nights in the desert. If you take one citation out of context, such as you quote in your tape, then you miss the big picture, that being what the early Christians practiced as disciplines and handed down to their disciples and acts of worship.

Finally, you must remember that the writings of the scripture came after the birth of the Church. It was the Church who decided what was to go into the sacred scripture. The scriptures were chosen to reflect the faith of the Church. They described what the Church believed. Even the OT was not codified until the year 100 AD. Prior to that, the only codified writings of the OT were the Torah or what the Greek Christians called the Pentateuch. We follow the Church’s understanding of scripture and her application of scripture, not the other way around.

The scripture does not define the Church. It proclaims the faith of the Church at the time that it was codified… It proclaims the faith of the Church from beginning to end. It proclaims that this is the faith of the Church for all eternity. The writings in scripture were never meant to be taken in isolation from the whole, because no single citation fully reflects the faith of the Church. The entire bible does.

You say that you are considering joining an Anglican traditoin. But you must remember that the Anglican tradition does not have apostolic succession. This puts you outside of the tradition of the apostles and the faith that the apostles handed down to us. First of all, the Anglican priest cannot stand in Persona Christi, because he lacks valid ordination. If he lacks valid ordination, then the sacrament of the Eucharist is not valid. This sacrament is the center of the Christian faith. You should think about these things. These are more important than Lent or holy days of obligation.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
I went through RCIA from September 30 of last year to March 31 of this year. It was all for nothing. Because of my unresolved problems with holy days of obligation, Lent, annullments, and a fiew other things, I can’t join the Church, because I would be lying to the Church, and possibly to God, if I made a full profession of faith just before Confirmation. I made a YouTube video about this, and it can be found below.
youtube.com/watch?v=LzA_0q1xW3E

I’m very disheartened, because I put a huge effort into my conversion process, and I spent a lot of money on transportation to and from church, and now I’m back where I started, except that now, I have some Catholic beliefs that I don’t know what to do with. I’m just another confused Protestant. I may try a conservative Episcopal church, since they have similar beliefs to mine.
I wonder of you are puting the cart before the horse? You say you want to find a Chuch who’s beliefs are similar to yours. Shouldnt you be searching for the Churc who’s beliefs are the the Truth, regardless of what your current beleifs are? if you look at the History of Christianity you will see there is only one Church that can claim to have the fulness of Truth.
 
Josh,

I listened to your audio clip. You’re clearly taking this very seriously and are genuinely struggling with it. I respect that A LOT. When I went through RCIA, I sensed that the majority of the people there were just going through the ropes in order to get married Catholic. The fact that you are taking the profession of faith this seriously says a lot about your spiritual seriousness.

I don’t have a deep enough knowledge to speak to most of the issues you raised - I’ll leave that to others. I just have two thoughts:
  1. I’ve learned that many people go through the RCIA process several times before resolving all of their issues. I know that today, on Easter, it may feel like it was “all for nothing”, but stay open to the possibility that you will look back on this someday as Step 1 in a multi-step process.
  2. You mentioned not agreeing with the rule against married priests. That is NOT a dogmatic rule of the Church. It is merely a discipline that has been followed for many centuries. It could change tomorrow if the Church decided that the detriments of it outweighed the benefits.
catholic.com/library/Celibacy_and_the_Priesthood.asp

May God bless you and I will pray for you, as you asked in the audio!
 
OK. Here’s my question. In the profession of faith, what exactly am I professing to? I thought that I would be professing that I believed that everything that the church teaches is true. If I don’t understand it correctly, could someone please explain it?
 
OK. Here’s my question. In the profession of faith, what exactly am I professing to? I thought that I would be professing that I believed that everything that the church teaches is true. If I don’t understand it correctly, could someone please explain it?
The question is “Do you believe in everything that the Catholic Church teaches revealed by Jesus Christ?”

In other words, do you believe in the revelations of Christ as they are proclaimed by the Church.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
TBolt, So many converts talk about issues that were not totally resolved when they converted.
But they later came to understand and, meanwhile, were growning spiritually with the Eucharist,
Reconciliation. I had a friend who was very legalistic about his practice of Catholicism, much to
his undoing. Remember that we are on a pilgrimage and have many battles to conquer. We are not perfect, but Our Lord is and when we stumble He is there to pick us up.

Also try to look at some of the issues that you have with the whole picture in mind. How does it
affect your practice of worship, of receiving the Eucharist, going to confession? Is going to Mass one more time (Holy Day of Obligation) that week going to damage your spiritual life? Is
not having a married clergy? (And there are married clergy you know, usually Episcopalian or
Lutheran converts who are already priests with spouses and families.)

Whatever you decide to do with your journey at this point, don’t feel that it was “all for nothing.”
You are sincere and all you learned won’t go to waste. I’ve read many converts’ stories and
throughout most of them are journeys that stop and go, go on tangents and finally come home.
 
I went through RCIA from September 30 of last year to March 31 of this year. It was all for nothing. Because of my unresolved problems with holy days of obligation, Lent, annullments, and a fiew other things, I can’t join the Church, because I would be lying to the Church, and possibly to God, if I made a full profession of faith just before Confirmation. I made a YouTube video about this, and it can be found below.
youtube.com/watch?v=LzA_0q1xW3E

I’m very disheartened, because I put a huge effort into my conversion process, and I spent a lot of money on transportation to and from church, and now I’m back where I started, except that now, I have some Catholic beliefs that I don’t know what to do with. I’m just another confused Protestant. I may try a conservative Episcopal church, since they have similar beliefs to mine.
I know of a lady that went to RCIA twice just because she wasn’t sure…I don’t believe you got nothing from going…You gained a great deal of spiritual information that might help you in the future

You can always try a different parish, all teachers are not equal. I would pray for direction
 
The question is “Do you believe in everything that the Catholic Church teaches revealed by Jesus Christ?”

In other words, do you believe in the revelations of Christ as they are proclaimed by the Church.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
Could you please elaborate? Are you just talking about what Jesus said in the Gospels, or are you talking about all of the teachings of the Church on all matters? Please be a little more clear.
 
Could you please elaborate? Are you just talking about what Jesus said in the Gospels, or are you talking about all of the teachings of the Church on all matters? Please be a little more clear.
Christ’s revelation comes to us through the scripture, the tradition of the Church and the magisterium.

The question is whether or not we believe in those things that the Church teaches are the revelation of Christ, through scripture, tradition and the teaching magisterium.

Christ reveals himself through the scriptures, not only the gospels, but also the OT. Christ’s revelation first came through tradition. Tradition was recorded in the scriptures. Tradition came first. Then the magisterium confirmed it.

As Catholics, we believe everything that the Church teaches has been revealed by Christ through all three sources.

Does this help?

JR 🙂
 
Yes, that helps. In other words, I was correct to start with, and it means that in order to be Catholic, one must believe that every single thing that the Church teaches has been revealed by Christ. I can’t believe this, because some of the Church’s teachings contradict Christ himself. Annullments are a good example of this, and so is being forced to make a vow of celibacy in order to become a priest. Jesus specificly said that marrital unfaithfulness is grounds for divorce, yet the Church teaches that an annullment cannot be granted soley on the grounds of adultery. Also, Jesus said not to sware at all, yet priests are forced to sware celibacy for the rest of their lives. Therefore, I do not believe that every single one of the Church’s teachings are revealed by Christ. If I would have made that profession of faith last night, I would have lied.
 
I went through RCIA from September 30 of last year to March 31 of this year. It was all for nothing. Because of my unresolved problems with holy days of obligation, Lent, annullments, and a fiew other things, I can’t join the Church, because I would be lying to the Church, and possibly to God, if I made a full profession of faith just before Confirmation. I made a YouTube video about this, and it can be found below.
youtube.com/watch?v=LzA_0q1xW3E

I’m very disheartened, because I put a huge effort into my conversion process, and I spent a lot of money on transportation to and from church, and now I’m back where I started, except that now, I have some Catholic beliefs that I don’t know what to do with. I’m just another confused Protestant. I may try a conservative Episcopal church, since they have similar beliefs to mine.
Have you spoken with your Sponsor, RCIA director and Pastor about resolving the problems? That would be the first step, talk with your Sponsor today or tomorrow, but I’d give it a week before contacting the RCIA director and Pastor.
 
Yes, that helps. In other words, I was correct to start with, and it means that in order to be Catholic, one must believe that every single thing that the Church teaches has been revealed by Christ. I can’t believe this, because some of the Church’s teachings contradict Christ himself. Annullments are a good example of this,
An annulment is not in conflict with Christ’s teaching on marriage. A decree of annulment is a statement that says the marriage never existed. It was only an appearance. Jesus speaks about marriage, not about what appears to be a marriage and is not.
** and so is being forced to make a vow of celibacy in order to become a priest**.
Celibacy is not a dogma revealed by Christ. It is a discipline of the Church. The Church has the power to bind and unbind. Therefore, it has the authority to make laws and rules. It cannot change doctrine, but it can make rules. Celibacy is a rule for priests in the western world.
Jesus specificly said that marrital unfaithfulness is grounds for divorce, yet the Church teaches that an annullment cannot be granted soley on the grounds of adultery.
Actually, Jesus was not saying this, but he was quoting the Mosaic law. At the time that he was speaking, the sacrament of marriage did not exist. The sacrament of marriage is very different from the Mosaic understanding of marriage. The sacrament of marriage is the relationship between Christ and the Church. The Church builds on what was revealed in the scriptures. Even when the people of God were unfaithful, God never abandoned them. Therefore, divorce on the grounds of infidelity is inconsistent with the relationship between God and his people.
Also, Jesus said not to sware at all, yet priests are forced to sware celibacy for the rest of their lives.
At the time that Jesus said this the Jews were often presured into service to the Roman Empire. They had to take an oath to Caesar. It is this oat that Jesus is talking about.

If you look at the prophets, God often swears by his own name to remain faithful and to save his people.

The early fathers of Christianity unerstood that an oath made to God is not the same as an oath made to false gods or those who claim to be God. Look at marriage. When you get married you make vows. This has been the form of the sacrament of marriage since the time of the Apostles.

When the apostles ordained new men to the ministry, they made vows. When the fathers of the Church, such as St. Anthony of the desert went to live religious life away from the sinful cities they made vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. The making of vows has been part of Christian tradition since the early Church.

You have to take the entire revelation, not just the scriptures. We must take what has been revealed through tradition and the magisterium along with scripture. If you take the scriputures alone, you are stuck in sola scriptura. That was the error of Luther.
Therefore, I do not believe that every single one of the Church’s teachings are revealed by Christ. If I would have made that profession of faith last night, I would have lied.
The profess faith in what the Church teaches Christ has revealed. Remember, revelation and disciplines are not the same thing. Disciplines have a reason for existing and they can be changed when those reasons no longer exist.

It sounds as if you’re still stuck on sola scriptura. Am I right?

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
I don’t think I’m stuck on Sola Scriptura. However, when sacred Tradition contradicts Scripture, I go with Scripture every time.

You have not given me a satisfactory answer about Jesus’s teaching on marriage. Jesus was clearly saying that it was not the same as in the Mosaic Law.
 
I don’t think I’m stuck on Sola Scriptura. However, when sacred Tradition contradicts Scripture, I go with Scripture every time.

It never does

You have not given me a satisfactory answer about Jesus’s teaching on marriage. Jesus was clearly saying that it was not the same as in the Mosaic Law.
Christ was an observant Jew. He lived and died as a Jew
 
I don’t think I’m stuck on Sola Scriptura. However, when sacred Tradition contradicts Scripture, I go with Scripture every time.

You have not given me a satisfactory answer about Jesus’s teaching on marriage. Jesus was clearly saying that it was not the same as in the Mosaic Law.
WHAT?!!! The realtionship between Christ and the Church is not satisfactory?

Where does Sacred Tradition contradict scripture?

Which came first, scripture or tradition?

You need more formation before you become Catholic. If you’re really interested, you may want to enroll in some theological courses through your diocese. Most diocese have them. Find out through your parish or the Director of Religious Education.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
First of all your RCIA hasn’t been for nothing - I’m sure you’ve learned a lot from it, and will benefit from that knowledge in future.

As for adultery - if you want a TRULY Biblical view of marriage, read the prophet Hosea. His wife was repeatedly unfaithful, yet the words divorce and annulment never passed his lips. Instead he took her back time and time again, and never ceased calling her to in her turn be faithful to their marital vows.

And what was that Our Lord said about forgiving seventy times seven times? True, we forgive when the spouse expresses repentance, but one who is unrepentant will probably leave anyway and it will become a moot point. By the way, the Church DOES allow civil divorce (which however doesn’t dissolve the sacramental bond any more than your sins dissolve the covenant made between you and God in baptism).

How is leaving an unfaithful spouse showing Christian forgiveness to them?
 
Whoa. Everybody take a step back. Give Josh some breathing room - he came in here with a burden, and we’ve responded by . . . putting more bricks in his bag.
OK. Here’s my question. In the profession of faith, what exactly am I professing to?
You are professing to believe what the Creed states - carefully and precisely chosen words that delineate the essentials of the Faith, words that were honed and distilled over centuries for this purpose. Things that are not included in the Creed are not meant to be in the Creed, despite what some may tell you. Men of God died for those words. It is not for us to suggest that we know better than they what they meant.
I thought that I would be professing that I believed that everything that the church teaches is true. If I don’t understand it correctly, could someone please explain it?
First, I would have to say that almost no one who enters the Church as an adult can honestly stay they entered the Church without a doubt or quibble. Most of us came in with the fervent belief that this was, somehow, some way, the Church that Jesus founded, and that the Eucharist is Really Jesus, and how can I not be here and receive Him if that is True??? And if there is stuff in Church history and Church teaching that I don’t get or I don’t understand or I don’t agree with, but I believe that Jesus is here in a way that He is no where else, then I have to be here and I’ll figure the rest out, or I won’t, but He will and I’m okay with that.

I clung (and cling) to the prayer of the father in Mark 9:24 “Lord, I believe, Lord, help thou my unbelief!”

Next: At some level faith requires what is called, for want of a better term, a “leap of faith.” It requires stepping out on to what appears to be water, believing that if God wills it, the water will prove to be solid, or you will prove to be bouyant, or that there is an escher there that you can’t see . . . or that if you drown, the Lord will welcome you into His presence, because He has called you to take that step and He knows better and loves you more than you can ever imagine or understand.

What faith does not require is perfect understanding. St. Paul, of all people, wrote “For now we see as through a glass, darkly.” (I Cor. 13:12) We will not fully understand until we are freed of the limits of these finite minds.

Finally: Others have pointed out here that there are differences between the defined truths of the Faith (dogma) and the disciplines of the Church. This is true. We believe that the Faith is unchanging but it is to be applied in every age by the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit - so whether we observe the Sabbath on the 7th day or the 1st day of the week, or are obliged to keep kosher, or require priests to take vows of celibacy - those are disciplines which we accept the Church’s authority to regulate, whether or not we understand her reasons, but they are not doctrines of the faith as the Incarnation and the Trinity are. If that distinction is really your only stumbling block, you are very close to shore indeed! If you really feel the Church “contradicts” Christ you probably do need to spend some more time in investigation, but that does not mean your time has been wasted. Every obstacle you overcome, every tidbit you resolve in your own mind, will be used by the Lord in His service somehow. Your struggle will make it possible for you to assist someone else, and that, too has value.

So take as long as you need, study as much as you desire, question and examine and challenge and probe - but don’t fall into the trap of thinking that you have to be 100% in agreement with everything that has ever been written or done by a church official to make your profession. It is enough to believe that Jesus is Lord and that His promises to His Church are true. It is enough to accept that you may not understand everything, and to be willing to be obedient even when you are not convinced. It is enough to say “Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief!”
 
Yes, that helps. In other words, I was correct to start with, and it means that in order to be Catholic, one must believe that every single thing that the Church teaches has been revealed by Christ. I can’t believe this, because some of the Church’s teachings contradict Christ himself. Annullments are a good example of this, and so is being forced to make a vow of celibacy in order to become a priest. Jesus specificly said that marrital unfaithfulness is grounds for divorce, yet the Church teaches that an annullment cannot be granted soley on the grounds of adultery. Also, Jesus said not to sware at all, yet priests are forced to sware celibacy for the rest of their lives. Therefore, I do not believe that every single one of the Church’s teachings are revealed by Christ. If I would have made that profession of faith last night, I would have lied.
Josh -

It sounds like you are not fully understanding the difference between Tradition with a capitol “T” and tradition with a lower-case “t.” In other words, you are putting some Catholic traditions - which are not considered necessary for salvation and could change at any time - on the same level as certain doctrines. For example, priestly celibacy is a tradition or discipline that is seen as beneficial but could be changed. Celibacy is a practice that was valued even in Jesus’ time, and St. Paul was celibate during his ministry. Today’s priests are not “forced” to take vows of celibacy, but take these vows joyfully, recognizing celibacy as as spiritual gift and personal calling like St. Paul did. Of course, at any time the Church could say “Well, we don’t see a celibate priesthood as beneficial anymore, so we’re not going to do that anymore.” But honestly, that probably won’t happen any time soon because most priests see their celibacy as a gift!

Now, if a man feels called to both ordination AND marriage, the Church has a place for those people too: these man can be Deacons! They can minister in many ways, too, but also have to balance their duties with family life. Or, in some Eastern Rites priests can be married. The Church certainly does not see a married priesthood as wrong, just in the Latin Rite, they don’t currently do it that way.

Now, something like the doctrine of the Trinity - this can never change because it is core to what we believe and to our salvation.

Also taking a vow or oath is not the same as taking the Lord’s name in vain (what we call “swearing” today). Many in the Bible took vows or oaths. Marriage require vows - do you believe it is wrong to get married? I would certainly hope not!

Anyway, there are much smarter people on this forum than myself, and I know this hasn’t answered all your questions, but I hope that helps. Keep studying and praying! It’s admirable that you want to fully understand.

God bless,

Sarah
 
=TBolt1000T;5068203]I went through RCIA from September 30 of last year to March 31 of this year. It was all for nothing. Because of my unresolved problems with holy days of obligation, Lent, annullments, and a fiew other things, I can’t join the Church, because I would be lying to the Church, and possibly to God, if I made a full profession of faith just before Confirmation. I made a YouTube video about this, and it can be found below.
youtube.com/watch?v=LzA_0q1xW3E
I’m very disheartened, because I put a huge effort into my conversion process, and I spent a lot of money on transportation to and from church, and now I’m back where I started, except that now, I have some Catholic beliefs that I don’t know what to do with. I’m just another confused Protestant. I may try a conservative Episcopal church, since they have similar beliefs to mine.
My dear friend in Christ,

I’m truly sorry about your decision. But that my friend is a matter between you and your God.

As one who co-teaches RCIA, I hope it was nothing that the Catholic Staff did that led to your decision? You should have been made aware that the Catholic faith is pretty much a “all or nothing” selection.

All Catholic Doctrines and Dogma’s acceptance (at least with free assent of will) are to be accepted.

Unable to do this, you made the honest and truthful decision not to enter the church, and for you, at least right now, that seems to have been the correct choice.

I am concerned however that you received full and proper instruction at every stage of your process of discernment?

Having been associated with Catholic Education for nearly 15 years, I know that at times, the truth is difficult to accept, and our rigid belief system can be troublesome for people comming from other backgrounds. But there is only a single truth, on any single issue.

Still Catholic Belief is BIBLE belief. All of our doctrine and dogma’s are explicit, or implicit in God’s holy Word. (Jn.21:30).

So, dear friend, if you have unresolved questions, we’d be very happy to address them for you.

As for the Anullment Process, it is what it is. Marriage is a serious business, but, the church is fair and true to biblical principles.

God bless you. Your effort was not for “nothing.” All education is of value;)
 
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