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Scotty_PGH
Guest
Nope - not at all.
- Status
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Orionthehunter
Guest
I think we have to put a little perspective into this situation and then apply some Christian charity.
First, I’m involved in RCIA and have been for 5 years. While most classes are taught by my Pastor or a retired Priest, on occassion because of schedule conflicts with other programs etc., the classes have to be taught by either our Director of Rel. Ed. or myself. I can assure you that as hard as we try to be “orthodox” and properly represent the Church Teaching almost every week we end up misrepresenting something either out of our ignorance or our failure to use the right words or right context.
Second, I do feel for you. It appears you have a “child” of the post-Vatican ll “mute Catholic identity” debacle. This “reform” was not evil just ill-concieved and ill-advised. The rationale was to make Catholicism “relevant” but instead it caused confusion, repressed vocations, and to some degree “Americanized” that which is bigger than our culture. But this is what your teacher knows. Change is hard for some and it is natural to resist it. Combine that with the fact that she probably doesn’t have the time to fully learn and absorb the “reform of the reform”, she is prone to not fully understand and thus teach what is correct.
But her service to your program is and will continue to be a way for the Holy Spirit to work in her. She is probably to some degree intimidated by the responsibility and her self-awareness of her limited knowledge. Some people try to hide that which they don’t know by acting like a “know it all”. This is a fault that many of us have. I ask you to please factor that into your conception of her “miscues” and apply some Christian Charity.
Related to this, I recall the year for three months the teaching was done by the team as our Pastor was on his three month spiritual direction retreat. The substitute Priest was a retired Priest who just didn’t have the energy to take on RCIA. Even when we were incorrect, we didn’t like to be corrected in front of the class. We were doing the best we could and wanted the class to learn from us. When corrected (sometimes the catechuman was right and sometime not), in both cases, we wished the conversation had been done in private. In our minds, such corrections diminished our authority with the rest of the class and caused them to doubt or question everything we said.
My time in RCIA has a been a great “illuminator” for me as I’ve come to understand that certain principles, practices and doctrines are critical. I once was satisfied w/ Confession a couple of times a year. Now I try to go monthly or more often.
Third, there is a reason that teachers go to college for four years and it isn’t just to master the subject matter. I have nearly a Masters in Finance and work in the field today but am incapable of stepping into even a high school business/accounting class as a teacher.
Finally, I think that part of the problem is that RCIA is a happenstance program in many dioceses (if what I read on CAF is any indication but then it might only be that we hear from the problem RCIA classes). The first couple of years our program was self-designed in our parish and we struggled. The faith is so rich and it was hard to figure out what are the most important areas to cover in our limited time. But a few years ago, the diocese gave us a suggested curriculum and suddenly the “focus” made it much easier. And with suggested reading and handouts for the classes, we better understood what we needed to teach and the context. Your situation might be that you have “amateurs” (remember this isn’t probably your Priest’s expertise either) trying to teach and design a curriculum. Trust me, this is a hard task.
First, I’m involved in RCIA and have been for 5 years. While most classes are taught by my Pastor or a retired Priest, on occassion because of schedule conflicts with other programs etc., the classes have to be taught by either our Director of Rel. Ed. or myself. I can assure you that as hard as we try to be “orthodox” and properly represent the Church Teaching almost every week we end up misrepresenting something either out of our ignorance or our failure to use the right words or right context.
Second, I do feel for you. It appears you have a “child” of the post-Vatican ll “mute Catholic identity” debacle. This “reform” was not evil just ill-concieved and ill-advised. The rationale was to make Catholicism “relevant” but instead it caused confusion, repressed vocations, and to some degree “Americanized” that which is bigger than our culture. But this is what your teacher knows. Change is hard for some and it is natural to resist it. Combine that with the fact that she probably doesn’t have the time to fully learn and absorb the “reform of the reform”, she is prone to not fully understand and thus teach what is correct.
But her service to your program is and will continue to be a way for the Holy Spirit to work in her. She is probably to some degree intimidated by the responsibility and her self-awareness of her limited knowledge. Some people try to hide that which they don’t know by acting like a “know it all”. This is a fault that many of us have. I ask you to please factor that into your conception of her “miscues” and apply some Christian Charity.
Related to this, I recall the year for three months the teaching was done by the team as our Pastor was on his three month spiritual direction retreat. The substitute Priest was a retired Priest who just didn’t have the energy to take on RCIA. Even when we were incorrect, we didn’t like to be corrected in front of the class. We were doing the best we could and wanted the class to learn from us. When corrected (sometimes the catechuman was right and sometime not), in both cases, we wished the conversation had been done in private. In our minds, such corrections diminished our authority with the rest of the class and caused them to doubt or question everything we said.
My time in RCIA has a been a great “illuminator” for me as I’ve come to understand that certain principles, practices and doctrines are critical. I once was satisfied w/ Confession a couple of times a year. Now I try to go monthly or more often.
Third, there is a reason that teachers go to college for four years and it isn’t just to master the subject matter. I have nearly a Masters in Finance and work in the field today but am incapable of stepping into even a high school business/accounting class as a teacher.
Finally, I think that part of the problem is that RCIA is a happenstance program in many dioceses (if what I read on CAF is any indication but then it might only be that we hear from the problem RCIA classes). The first couple of years our program was self-designed in our parish and we struggled. The faith is so rich and it was hard to figure out what are the most important areas to cover in our limited time. But a few years ago, the diocese gave us a suggested curriculum and suddenly the “focus” made it much easier. And with suggested reading and handouts for the classes, we better understood what we needed to teach and the context. Your situation might be that you have “amateurs” (remember this isn’t probably your Priest’s expertise either) trying to teach and design a curriculum. Trust me, this is a hard task.
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Akanke
Guest
She supported abortion in front of about 25 catechumens. You tell me. Not having stated anything that she taught, you have as much room to support her as I have not to support her.
I’m very aware of my own planks. Thank you for reminding me that they’re there.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
I’ve reread this entire post. Where did she advocate abortion? If that is the case, this is a grave matter contrary to Church teaching requiring her to recant or be removed as an RCIA teacher as opposed to the silly matter of whether confessionals are called “reconciliation rooms”.
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slewi
Guest
There was a bit of confusion on who was quoting who and who was responding. It’s all better now. The abortion thing was something that unfortunately happened in Akanke’s class, not mine.
Steve
Steve
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Akanke
Guest
We were in RCIA class when that happened. My sponsor told me she was “reprimanded” though I’m not entirely certain what that entails. In any case, the teaching was corrected for the class.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
I’m even surprised your sponsor knew that your Pastor addressed the matter w/ the teacher unless the sponsor was there. This is a serious pastoral issue between this member of the flock and her shepherd. I think the point is that you know the matter was addressed to the class. The rest is between the woman and your Pastor.
Also, I’m reminded of a theory of a friend of mine. He said a pilot who has survived a crash has eliminated at least one mistake from those that he might commit. Your teacher will probably be more likely to be careful such a situation doesn’t arise again (unless she is stupid and stubborn
)!
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palmas85
Guest
I ve seen several posts here referring to “Christian Charity”. I’ll say this, when Christ drove the money changers and merchants out of the Temple he displayed precious little of what could be termed Christian Charity. They were wrong and he knew it. He didn’t approach them graciously, be friendly and polite and try to reason things out, no HE TOOK THE APPROPRIATE ACTION. and drove thme from the Temple, probably in fear for their very lives.
All to often we have the milquetoast vision of what our faith is and how we have to bend over and take everything thrown at us. Be polite and accomodating at all costs. Don’t hurt anyones feelings. I think if someone is wrong then they are wrong. And from what I’ve read here, that person was wrong and should have been straightened out quick.
All to often we have the milquetoast vision of what our faith is and how we have to bend over and take everything thrown at us. Be polite and accomodating at all costs. Don’t hurt anyones feelings. I think if someone is wrong then they are wrong. And from what I’ve read here, that person was wrong and should have been straightened out quick.
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Lurch104
Guest
Actually, I am my parish’s RCIA coordinator. I have inherited several “less than orthodox” catechists. Some of the things they say makes me wince. However, they are genuine. They do the best that they can and they love our candidates. If an ungrateful, demanding person would make such comments to them, it would break their heart…however, they would continue to love that person and do their best to educate that person. I put in about 15 hours outside of class per week running the program. I want it to be 100% orthodox. You cannot turn the ship around overnight. I have the support of my pastor, but turning the ship around can be a slow process.
Throwing rocks at people who are trying to do their best by you is just not very nice. I would absolutely struggle teaching a class where someone was as negative as you seem to be rolling their eyes at every comment I made.
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netmilsmom
Guest
I admire you for your efforts however, my husband is going through the RCIA at my extremely orthodox parish. It is lacking. In fact, it is lacking to the point that they are losing people.
When all RCIA programs are lacking, we lose people. That is not good. Instead of rationalizing it, we should be fighting tooth and nail to make it right. If my hubby doesn’t make it through, I know he will not give it another chance. That is a dirty pity. If one candidate in each program is lost in this way, it is a tragedy.
The biggest question I have is why aren’t the Priests leading RCIA?
When I sponsored a lady in the 90’s, our parish priest lead it.
And if you are letting things that are not correct slide because these are nice people who love a lot, you are not doing a service to those in RCIA. And it is on you if the candidates are not getting the information no matter how “nice” the volunteer is.
K
Karin
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
netmil(name removed by moderator):
**Yes, I would like to know also **
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Yup, I will vouch for that…I have started RCIA three times (at three different parishes) and three times I have quit becuase the teachers where not getting the info out correctly or at all.
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slewi
Guest
Sorry to say Lurch, but you are on the losing side here. For some reason you have decided that my feelings about my RCIA experience are wrong. I pray that my experiences have been unique, but based on the posts here and in other threads, that doesn’t seem to be the case.
I have been the epitome of graciousness and patience with the things my RCIA teacher has said. I do not sit there and “roll my eyes”. On the contrary, I nod my head and take it all in. Then I come here to vent.
You seem to be a caring person who probably should be teaching RCIA. But please do take CHARGE of it. Take the helm and lead it as it should be. Do not let things slide. Do not offer water downed doctrine, do not talk of ‘ecumenism’, teach them what it means to be a catholic. Communion of the Saints, Purgatory, all of the important basics of the faith need to be brought back to the forefront of our RCIA.
For those of us in RCIA, we should all get a hold of pre-consiliar Cathechisms like The Baltimore, or the Cathechism of Trent. I have found them to be online and more usefull in teaching me my faith than the stuff I’ve seen so far.
God Bless all of us now trying to learn about our faith in this modernistic time,and those teaching RCIA. Keep us posted how things are going for you all.
Steve
I have been the epitome of graciousness and patience with the things my RCIA teacher has said. I do not sit there and “roll my eyes”. On the contrary, I nod my head and take it all in. Then I come here to vent.
You seem to be a caring person who probably should be teaching RCIA. But please do take CHARGE of it. Take the helm and lead it as it should be. Do not let things slide. Do not offer water downed doctrine, do not talk of ‘ecumenism’, teach them what it means to be a catholic. Communion of the Saints, Purgatory, all of the important basics of the faith need to be brought back to the forefront of our RCIA.
For those of us in RCIA, we should all get a hold of pre-consiliar Cathechisms like The Baltimore, or the Cathechism of Trent. I have found them to be online and more usefull in teaching me my faith than the stuff I’ve seen so far.
God Bless all of us now trying to learn about our faith in this modernistic time,and those teaching RCIA. Keep us posted how things are going for you all.
Steve
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Lurch104:
Akanke has tried to be general about the situation, but from his posts, this woman has called into question much of what the Church has done for the past 1900 years, including celebrating the Mass Ad Orientum, having Alter Rails in front of the Sabctuaries and having Statues, Crucifixes and Stations of the Cross for veneration in the Churches.
In another post, she supported a woman’s right to kill her baby in a surgical abortion. That is a grave matter which could have resulted in her removal.
Do you think Akante just might have been correct about this particular RCIA Instructor?
If so, why didn’t you give Akante the same benefit of the doubt you demanded he give the RCIA instructor?
Why did you assume that Akante was giving the RCIA Instructor a hard time? Did you automatically assume that, because he was complaining about her here, that he was giving her a hard time there? Whatever happened to the idea that posters come here to discuss problems with people such as the RCIA Instructor that Akante was talking about INSTEAD of chucking stones at them? That posters talk HERE so they don’t give the people they have to deal with a hard time out THERE?
I’m not going to belabor the point any further, except to say that I feel you might owe Akante an apology.
In Christ, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Steve:
The present Catechism of the Catholic Church is fine - It just has to be taught and taught correctly.
One former parishioner of St. Mary’s went down the street to the local Catholic Church (run by Jesuits) was told that various things (such as anti-war political activism) were taught in the Catechism that I knew weren’t. I told her I would believe the RCIA Instructors if they would show me the passages. THEY NEVER DID.
At one point, a nun used the Catholic Faith to justify turning around and walking out on her because her son was defusing bombs in Pakistan and Afghanistan (The parish prays for all US troops to be withdrawn from all countries in which they’re engaged). The biggest bomb so far was a huge one which would have slaughtered over 1,000 Shia while they were at prayers.
That’s the state of RCIA in the L:A Archdiocese.
Well, at least I know not to go to that parish.
I did teach CCD once - That was almost 25 years ago. I made the poor kids who were preparing for Confirmation learn part of the Baltimore Catechism. I understand I was the only teacher who made them learn either the Catechism or the Scriptures.
That’s what they got for having an Anglican teach Catechism - I never was accepted into the Church…
In Christ, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Lurch"
On what basis are you claiming that Steve is “throwing rocks” and “being negative”?
I’ve seen nothing in either of their posts where they’ve talked about confronting the RCIA Instructor - Could you please point out the post where they said they actually confronted this Instructor and did what you’ve accusing them of doing?
Wasn’t this supposed to be a place where people could talk about the difficulties they are having so they could receive prayers and advice and not feel compelled to have to do those things?
Would you rather make this place so unsafe for that kind of discussion that people feel they have no place to turn to and “throw rocks” and “be negative” INSTEAD? Or, Do you think you could facilitate the discussion by letting people know how difficult it is to find and train Catechists but leave off the attempts to “Do their Inventories”, “Perform their Examinations of Conscience” or to “Remove the SPECKS from their eyes”?
Why are you so defensive that you have to attack these two people who are having troubles with a heterodox RCIA Instructor?
In Christ, Michael
[/quote]
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netmilsmom
Guest
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Michael
That actually looks good and systematic - Any good teacher could teach it because the materials are already provided.
Michael
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Lurch104
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
NO ONE leaves my class after being taught doctrinal error.
My biggest problem with some of the posters here is how critical people are. I see everyone complaining, but I have not seen anyone offer to take over the program to fix the errors themselves.
Priests are not leading the RCIA program because there is not enough hours in the day for a priest to do all of the things he should be doing. I would love for a priest to take over our RCIA program, I believe that our candidates and catechumens are missing out. It is just not possible. He did what he considered the next best thing, recruit an orthodox individual to coordinate the program. Although flattered that he would place his trust in me, I only said yes at his urging. I do not believe a lay person should be running the program. I do my best with his guidance. I have dismissed several catechists who KNOWINGLY teach error. The others I am educating and giving them the option to tow the line. When someone teaches an error, I generally get with the catechist at break, educate them and allow them to save face and correct their error. In other circumstances I will interrupt and lead the discussion, making sure everyone understands our true faith.
NO ONE leaves my class after being taught doctrinal error.
My biggest problem with some of the posters here is how critical people are. I see everyone complaining, but I have not seen anyone offer to take over the program to fix the errors themselves.
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Akanke
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Wow! They use the CCC for RCIA! I was wondering why my parish did not. It seems only logical to me to use the CCC for the instruction of catechumens. I’m encouraged to know that someone does!
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Akanke
Guest
On the contrary…
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