My rule of faith

[Nick_Jones]

So “I am not bound by teachings that are not taught in the Bible” is false since you ARE BOUND by the Canon of Scripture which is a teaching that IS NOT IN THE BIBLE.

Hi, Ken,

It seems to me that you’re trying to separate things that really can’t be separated: the nature of the canon, and how people come to know the contents of the canon. If the canon is viewed as a separate entity from scripture, all kinds of confusions are likely to arise.

Canon is an artifact of scripture. God knows what He intends to impart to His church, and God insures that His church receives what she needs. Some people want to give human institutions credit for giving us the bible and discerning what is and isn’t in the canon. It is God alone who has sovereignly provided the bible to the church because of the divine purposes of God, who provides what His sheep desperately need.

 

[mercygate]

Hi, Ken,

It seems to me that you’re trying to separate things that really can’t be separated: the nature of the canon, and how people come to know the contents of the canon. If the canon is viewed as a separate entity from scripture, all kinds of confusions are likely to arise.

Canon is an artifact of scripture. God knows what He intends to impart to His church, and God insures that His church receives what she needs. Some people want to give human institutions credit for giving us the bible and discerning what is and isn’t in the canon. It is God alone who has sovereignly provided the bible to the church because of the divine purposes of God, who provides what His sheep desperately need.

It is exactly this recognition that will draw you into an understanding that Christ’s One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is not merely a “human institution.” You have come upon the great crisis: If I believe that Scripture is the inspired and inerrant word of God, then by what authority do I believe it?

Relying on a personal conviction that “the ‘holy spirit’ won’t misguide me” will only lead you to question why you should be certain that your ‘holy spirit’ should be bigger and badder than the Holy Spirit that guided the ratification of the canon. It comes down to:

My Holy Spirit can beat up your Holy Spirit. I know a lot of people whose ecclesiology rests on nothing more than a glamorization of that playground taunt.

The Catholic Church confides in the promise of Jesus that he would build his Church upon the rock of Peter, to whom he entrusted the power of the Keys to bind and loose (as in binding the canon of Scripture), and against which hell itself cannot prevail. Game, set, match.

 

[Damascus]

How’s it going Nick?

Have you found more credible sources for me to read since your last response to my post where you state without sources your rejection of the factual evidence I provided?

I am still waiting Nick.

 

[JaneFrances]

It seems to me that you’re trying to separate things that really can’t be separated: the nature of the canon, and how people come to know the contents of the canon.

So, then, how do you know the contents of the canon? For instance, by what authority do you choose which Old Testament canon is inspired?

If the canon is viewed as a separate entity from scripture, all kinds of confusions are likely to arise.

Interesting point, but you must realize that the canon is somewhat of a separate entity in that, historically, it is not recognized except through the authority of a teaching body. You claimed:

As my authority on teaching, I hold to the scriptures alone.

Yet, the canon can not be determined by Scripture alone. There is ALWAYS a final authority beyond Scripture which recognizes which texts are Scriptural.

So, back to “scripture alone” as the final authority! How do you know the canon of Sacred Scripture (Old and New Testaments) by relying on “scripture alone”? That is the question.

Canon is an artifact of scripture.

I don’t know what that means. . . ??? Could you explain?

God knows what He intends to impart to His church, and God insures that His church receives what she needs.

Indeed. This is exactly Catholic theology. But HOW does our omnipotent and sovereign God choose to impart his Word?

Some people want to give human institutions credit for giving us the bible and discerning what is and isn’t in the canon.

Not just human institutions. . .We also give humans some credit! We also recognize the freedom of King David, St. Luke, St. Paul (and the list goes on) as they cooperated with God in authoring scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They were obedient servants.

I think this is the part God has given us in salvation history–to freely choose Him and to cooperate with grace for His purpose. For we know that in Him we, the church, human beings are made generous distributors of His grace. We have the choice to be obedient children or disobedient. Neither we nor the authors of Sacred Scripture are robots. Our cooperation with grace in the way of obedience is our gift back to our loving, merciful, and all-powerful Lord.

It is God alone who has sovereignly provided the bible to the church because of the divine purposes of God, who provides what His sheep desperately need.

Interesting statement. . .but not entirely accurate.

It is true that all good comes from God, but he has chosen according to His sovereign will not to act alone. Throughout Judeo-Christian history, He has chosen to provide his children with intercessors–helpers–servants–stewards.

The Israelites could have been freed and led to the promised land apart from Moses, but this was not God’s plan.

God could have acted without Jonah and the prophets, but this was not His will.

God could have written his whole Word on our hearts without the need for parchment or pen, preacher or apostle, but this was not His sovereign choice.

Yes, God provides. Yes, God chose Sacred Scripture as a vehicle for his Holy Word. But, nowhere does He tell us that He has provided Scripture as the ONLY or FINAL AUTHORITY of His Word, which is your position.

The Catholic position, on the otherhand, recognizes God’s Divine choice to use His Church to impart to us his Holy Word.

 

[FillTheVoid]

The problem is who has the authority to decide what the scripture accurately teaches? Anyone who has a degree in theology? Or an institution with 2,000 years of experience?

 

[Liberian]

How can we know that this is true?

The same way we know anything historical is true. We look at old records and modern-day traces of past events. In the case of the Catholic Church being descended directly from the Apostles, we have various Church histories that have been written down through the ages.

I think that the name, “Protestant” is what’s new. The name “Lutheran” is new… but, conceptually speaking, this doesn’t necessarily mean that whatever Protestants generally believe concerning the gospel must be new.

Sola Fide is new. Sola Scriptura is new. Removing the Deuterocanonicals from the Bible is new. Once-saved-always-saved is new. Pre-Tribulation Rapture is new.

At some point in the history of every Protestant church, there was a time when the leader(s) or members stood up and said “We are not in communion with the Catholic Church.” That is the discontinuity that I was referring to.

• Liberian

 

[Nick_Jones]

Okay. No problem there from a Catholic perspective, which is precisely why the Church canonized Scripture.

I believe that the canon exists because scripture exists, and scripture exists because God inspired it into existence. So, scripture would still be scripture regardless what any church or council may say.

But what is your measure of their authority? Does it only apply if what these “more knowledgable” people are teaching lines up with what you already believe? What if someone “more knowledgable” than you says there aren’t just 66 books in the Old Testament? What then?

Everyone must interpret what they read and hear. As I’ve already admitted, everything I believe, I believe fallibly. I could be wrong about everything. None of this negates the fact that I can learn from those who are more knowlegable than myself.

 

[Nick_Jones]

This actually proves a very important point!!! I’m so glad you brought this up.

The version of Scripture that you chose says “sufficient,” yet there are at least 5 other translations that differ. Instead of “sufficient” they use the words “profitable” or “useful.” So, how do you choose? If Scripture is your final authority, how do you choose which translation of your final authority to believe? Seeing as how “sufficiency” and “usefulness” are two entirely different things. . .

The New American:

King James:

NIV:

Douay Rheims:

The Message:

Good point! I have to use my own judgment when choosing which translation I want for my study bible. And Again, my own judgment is fallible. I could choose unwisely. Do you have the solution to this problem?

 

[Nick_Jones]

If you look carefully, Nick, you will see that verse 15 says (RSV):

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, . . .

It does not say sufficient.

In an earlier post you mention doctrines that you believe are not in Scripture, but in fact, there is good scriptural support for them. Purgatory is particularly easy to defend – and easier to defend if one allows the Deuterocanonical books into evidence. It is, of course, revealed in the primary canon, although less graphically.

The scriptural grounds for the papacy are a slam-dunk.

If the RC doctrine is true (that my own interpretation of the bible is not adequate) then it will do the CC no good to appeal to scripture in order to defend CC teachings. When you use scripture to prove that your church’s teachings are true and accurate, you only demonstrate that in reality, you DO believe that I can interpret the bible.

 

[Damascus]

Goodbye Nick!

It was interesting reading your last few posts Nick.

Best regards

 

[Little_Mary]

www.biblechristiansociety.com

 

[JaneFrances]

Good point! I have to use my own judgment when choosing which translation I want for my study bible. And Again, my own judgment is fallible. I could choose unwisely. Do you have the solution to this problem?

Yes, the Church. Whenever you have an issue that you can not resolve on your own, we are told to look to the Church. Knowing that you are fallible is the first step.

 

[The_Augustinian]

Mr. Jones, I think the answer to your question lies in researching the doctrines of the Church, to see how they are justified in the light of the Scriptures. Once you see that they are not contradictory to Scripture and in fact are the most faithful to it, the Holy Ghost will do the work for you. Moreover, if you read the Church Fathers you will see that Christianity for the first fifteen centuries looked nothing like Protestantism.

But, to answer your question, the Church does not need to justify Herself by pointing to Scripture, because Her authority does not come from a book; it come from Her Founder. Heresies come and go, but the Church of Christ stands forever. So, do not presume to judge the Church, but rather humbly consider the possibility that Her claims may be accurate.

 

[mercygate]

Good point! I have to use my own judgment when choosing which translation I want for my study bible. And Again, my own judgment is fallible. I could choose unwisely. Do you have the solution to this problem?

Use more than one translation. Learn Greek.

 

[mercygate]

If the RC doctrine is true (that my own interpretation of the bible is not adequate) then it will do the CC no good to appeal to scripture in order to defend CC teachings. When you use scripture to prove that your church’s teachings are true and accurate, you only demonstrate that in reality, you DO believe that I can interpret the bible.

I’m lost.

Catholics believe Scripture to be the inspired and inerrant word of God because history affirms Scripture, and also affirms the authority of the Church.

It is true that you can interpret the Bible. It would be illogical, however, to say that Scripture can be interpreted idiopathically – without reference to the Church from which it emerged.

As a matter of fact, there are fewer than a dozen passages of Scripture that the Church requires to be interpreted specifically in one way only and no other.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Mr. Jones, I think the answer to your question lies in researching the doctrines of the Church, to see how they are justified in the light of the Scriptures. Once you see that they are not contradictory to Scripture and in fact are the most faithful to it, the Holy Ghost will do the work for you.

If I’m not really capable of accurately interpreting the bible then it won’t be possible for me to see how they (CC doctrines) are justified in the light of the Scriptures, or to see that they are not contradictory to Scripture. I am actually helpless if I can’t interpret the bible. And if this were both true and firmly believed by everyone, there can be no church because no one would have the means for teaching biblical doctrine since no one would know biblical doctrine.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Yes, the Church. Whenever you have an issue that you can not resolve on your own, we are told to look to the Church. Knowing that you are fallible is the first step.

Which church? I know that Christ established only one church, but which one?

 

[Stephen_C]

If I’m not really capable of accurately interpreting the bible then it won’t be possible for me to see how they (CC doctrines) are justified in the light of the Scriptures, or to see that they are not contradictory to Scripture. I am actually helpless if I can’t interpret the bible. And if this were both true and firmly believed by everyone, there can be no church because no one would have the means for teaching biblical doctrine since no one would know biblical doctrine.

The Church - The Catholic Church - You know the one Jesus founded and gave Peter the key’s to.

 

[Stephen_C]

Which church? I know that Christ established only one church, but which one?

See post # 58

 

[Nick_Jones]

Interesting point, but you must realize that the canon is somewhat of a separate entity in that, historically, it is not recognized except through the authority of a teaching body.

A teaching body would be useless without having something to teach, and some reason to teach it. God must speak first, and then men can teach.

Yet, the canon can not be determined by Scripture alone. There is ALWAYS a final authority beyond Scripture which recognizes which texts are Scriptural.

By definition, the canon of scripture is determined by the scriptures. That “final authority” is the Holy Spirit who causes his sheep to hear God’s voice through the scriptures. Jesus said, “my sheep hear my voice.”