My SIL and possible personality disorder

[Sophie_Lawrence]

Hi. Some of you have participated in my thread regarding the family dispute regarding my SIL.

I just wanted to ask if anyone had any experience with people with personality disorders?

Our psychologist without giving her an official diagnosis, thinks that she does display many of the traits of borderline personality disorder.

I don’t want psychological advice. I guess I would like to know specific actions and attitudes and boundaries you’ve adapted in order to deal (and protect yourself) from someone with a personality disorder.

I’m beating myself up because part of this situation occurred because I let my guard down and allowed her past certain boundaries.

Also, on a side note, would anyone have the experience of multiple people having a personality disorder in a family. My MIL has traits of histrionic personality disorder, again not an official diagnosis.

Just an example of my MIL’s attention seeking is when DH and I were married she purchased a wedding gown to wear for the wedding. She had it dyed a different color, but there are literally thousands of dresses that she could have chosen that were not wedding dresses. I can’t be the only person who thinks that to be a bit “odd”.

Anyway, said MIL has sided with SIL, and has blamed my kids for, “Causing problems.”

I fantasize frequently about moving away to another country, or across the country.

Again, please no medical advice. Just your experiences

 

[EasterJoy]

This list was taken from “The Sociopath Next Door”, by Martha Stout, Ph.D. I would say that any time you are dealing with someone whose empathy is non-operational, these work. The big difference, however, is that an addict, for instance, is just someone who cannot be depended upon to look out for your interests instead of theirs. They may actually care about you and feel real guilt, but because of their enslavement to their addiction they can’t be trusted to do what they ought to do. A sociopath, however, is someone who is in competition with the world. If you cross them, they will want to get even, even to the point of “cutting off their nose to spite their face.” They will go to great lengths and perpetuate elaborate deceptions to do this. They have three kinds of people: people they can use, people who oppose them, and people who are useless. With them, you want to be in that third “off the radar” group.

From this, I have made myself these rules: Do not let yourself be used–it is a near occasion of sin for the person using you–but be generous and don’t keep score. Life is too short to be upset by people who run their lives in ways you wouldn’t. Let others have their “color crayons,” even the ones who don’t know the first thing about art. Remain humble and treat all as someone who ought to be making their own decisions whenever possible. When you have to stop an injustice, treat it as a mistake on the part of the offender that needs to be corrected, rather than as a reflection on their character–do set it right, but always do this in the same way for both the "innocent’ and the “guilty” offender. You may know it absolutely is a reflection on their character, but you will rarely do good by saying so. By this, you will show mercy those who really did just make a mistake and keep yourself off the radar of those who don’t want anyone bluntly uncovering their “game.”

Most of all, openly live as an open book. Be someone that people know will kindly refuse to cover up misdeeds that need to be corrected. Those who use others will try to keep those with firm integrity out of their lives. Apply this evenly, and you are less likely to have them see you as someone trying to foil them personally.

13 RULES FOR DEALING WITH SOCIOPATHS IN EVERYDAY LIFE

1. The first rule involves the bitter pill of accepting that some people literally have no conscience.
2. In a contest between your instincts and what is implied by the role a person has taken on—educator, doctor, leader, animal lover humanist, parent, child–go with your instincts. Your unfiltered impressions, though alarming and seemingly outlandish, may well help you out if you will let them. Your best self understands, without being told, that impressive and moral-sounding labels do not bestow conscience on anyone who did not have it to begin with.
3. When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the Rule of Threes, regarding the claims and promises a person makes, and the responsibilities he or she has. Make the Rule of Threes your personal policy. Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can. Leaving though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly. Do not give your money, your work, your secrets, or your affection to a three timer. Your valuable gifts will be wasted.
4. Question authority.
5. Suspect flattery.
6. If necessary redefine your concept of respect. Too often, we mistake fear for respect, and the more fearful we are of someone, the more we view him or her as deserving of our respect.
7. Do not join the game. Intrigue is a sociopath’s tool. Resist the temptation to compete with a seductive sociopath, to outsmart him, psychoanalyze, or even banter with him. In addition to reducing yourself to his level, you would be distracting yourself from what is really important, WHICH IS TO PROTECT YOURSELF.
8. The best way to protect yourself from a sociopath is to avoid him, to refuse any kind of contact or communication. Sociopaths live completely outside of the social contract, and therefore to include them in relationships or other social arrangements is perilous.
9. Question your tendency to pity too easily. Respect should be reserved for the kind and morally courageous. It should be reserved for innocent people who are in genuine pain or who have fallen on misfortune.
10. Do not try to redeem the unredeamable. Second chances are for people who possess conscience. If you are dealing with a person who has no conscience, know how to swallow hard and cut your losses. The sociopath’s behavior is not your fault, not in any way whatsoever. It is also not your mission. Your mission is your own life.
11. Never agree, out of pit or for any other reason, to help a sociopath conceal his or her true character. Other people deserve to warned more than sociopaths deserve to have you keep their secrets.
12. Defend your psyche. Do not allow someone without conscience, or even a string of such people, that humanity is a failure. Most human beings do possess conscience and are able to love.
13. Living well is the best revenge.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Pretty much what EJ posted.

While I have no official diagnosis, I suspect that my mother’s somewhere in that spectrum. She sees people as things and resources to be manipulated for her own ends, and is furious if she’s not the center of attention at all times. She also displays one face to the world, and another to her kids.

I ended up cutting contact entirely. I tried setting boundaries, but they were ignored. My “no” never meant “no” to her, no matter how clearly I said it and how inflexible in it I was. Ergo, I decided to go no contact, and haven’t spoken to her for almost three years. Good thing, too; I can only imagine how toxic she could be for DD.

Prior to that, the last major boundary I had to set was about our wedding–i.e., we decided she couldn’t come. She’s also an alcoholic, and has often in the past actively sabotaged important occasions. We weren’t going to buy her the alcohol that she’d drink before getting behind the wheel in a strange city and killing someone, and we weren’t going to saddle ourselves with the job of ensuring she didn’t flirt heavily with my future (and happily married) father-in-law. Or the priest. Or the various and sundry very unavailable men at the reception. (Yes, she’s married.) Nor did we want her to, I dunno, get sick after the reception and then sue us for every penny of DH’s retirement because of the traumatic implications of overeating or “food poisoning”. (Only someone who hasn’t had to deal with someone like this would think this is the stuff of crazy nightmares. All of this would be perfectly consistent with her past behavior.)

So, I wrote her a polite-but-firm email explaining that she couldn’t come to the wedding, in particular because we weren’t taking the risk of her getting drunk and driving, and no, a promise not to drink wouldn’t suffice because she’d never kept those promises in the past. She kept writing and demanding that she be allowed to come. I kept saying “I said no, and I mean no,” and variations thereof. I didn’t wobble or show any weakness or say “maybe” at any point. (Needless to say, DH and I were paying for the wedding ourselves.) I stuck with “no.”

As I recall, she threatened at one point to show up anyway so we might as well invite her. I replied that it was a good thing, then, that we had hired an off-duty cop as a security guard for the venue. (This wasn’t particular for her–it was required by the venue–but it came in handy.) One nasty email later, she settled for merely blowing up various friends’ phones throughout the wedding day, which despite her efforts was a truly lovely day.

Long story short, you can set boundaries with a person like that, and you can enforce them as necessary, but they’re unlikely to be respected unless they have serious, demonstrable, concrete consequences for the person involved. See above: she would have had no trouble ruining our wedding, but the idea of getting removed from the place by a cop wasn’t something she was willing to risk.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

…

Our psychologist without giving her an official diagnosis, thinks that she does display many of the traits of borderline personality disorder.

…

sigh When will everyone figure it out, that if we start putting labels on people this only acts as an excuse to treat them differently than the what the Lord has asked.

ANY psychiatrist, psychologist… etc WILL give you a label if you go in there to see them… that is their job to label, discuss and come up with something, their take on the matter. You here have said that yours stopped short of ‘labeling’- “official diagnosis”… but you do realize you have already USED it on her here… ** you already believe it, and if you believe it you will act upon that belief, and even see things you feel will validate that belief.** When it comes to psychology, you aren’t going to be told you, or anyone you are having difficulties with, are “normal”. There is no book in psychology that describes what is normal… anyone ever notice that? <----- That should be concerning. And truly none of us are “normal” because we are humans who are prone to sin due to fallen nature. How about just seeing her as a human and a troubled one. Skip the label, and stop looking for traits… its as bad as astrology… honestly. Frankly, people should know that psychology has its roots in the occult. The founder was very much against Christ. I don’t say that to discount any of the discoveries made since, but its not an exact science.

Yes,* there are problems * (there are real disorders) and most definitely problem people… but if you start seeing them as affected somehow, you will most likely start to fear them and treat them differently and thus miss the mark from how the Lord wants them to be effected, and thus bring NO healing to them… only pure love from Jesus heals, kills conflict, … there is no peace except peace in Christ. Start there, not with what some psychiatrist’s offhand opinion said about them. You are inviting trouble, and so many many many people do this when they should rather be praying a rosary and laying down the love as Christ said to love. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE … etc. Its VERY difficult, but I know from experience it works… much better than pills and ‘therapy’ too.

 

[AnneElizabeth]

…

Just an example of my MIL’s attention seeking is when DH and I were married she purchased a wedding gown to wear for the wedding. She had it dyed a different color, but there are literally thousands of dresses that she could have chosen that were not wedding dresses. I can’t be the only person who thinks that to be a bit “odd”…

Playing devil’s advocate here… How is this attention seeking? What if she was having a difficult time finding a dress she liked and then bought one which happened to be a wedding dress and decided the best thing to do was just to dye it? What she exhibiting any other behavior that says she was definitely attention seeking? Just wondering, because this is how it starts. Someone does something construed as odd and the belief about them goes from there. Have you ever done anything that others have considered ‘odd’? Are you sure?

…

Anyway, said MIL has sided with SIL, and has blamed my kids for, “Causing problems.”

I fantasize frequently about moving away to another country, or across the country.

Again, please no medical advice. Just your experiences

Again, how does this verify to any of us that she is indeed the problem… maybe its both of you? Maybe you did something to cause their behavior? Do you see where I’m going with this? … Everyone does this these days and I’m so tired of hearing these diagnosis’s thrown around like everyone has great insight into the souls of another. I’ll be in conversation with someone and they will start talking about so and so being 'fill in the blank psychiatric disorder" when they have no diagnosis. Its so prevalent and its dividing. Its an excuse to not love as the Lord said to.

Everyone is at ease in judging until they find that finger pointing back at them someday.

Again, I don’t want to say that there are no problem people or behaviors that are bad or wrong, but seriously, its getting out of hand. I hear and see it everywhere and people use it to justify themselves and their actions, when they don’t realize that someone probably is already doing the same to them, and they don’t know it… yet. What happens to the lot of these people is that they become ‘throw aways’ in society. Have you actually sat her down and had a heart to heart talk about those things you mention here, asked her why she wore the dyed wedding dress? Asked her if she realizes how she came across? DO those things FIRST. Christ says to go to those who have offended us and keep it between the two of you first. IF they refuse to listen then take it to the church. have you done that in this case? Yes, its very difficult, but people take the easy way out these days and its killing society.

 

[Kelfa28]

My MIL has a lot of issues. She’s never been diagnosed with anything but there is a heavy history of mental instability on her side of the family.

We haven’t gone totally no contact with her but I’m prepared to.

She is about to get married for a third time and is completely offended that neither her son or daughter want anything to do with this new fiancé of hers. I don’t blame either my husband or SIL to be honest.

I won’t go into the details but both my husband and SIL have suffered a lot in terms of abuse from her and her various ex husbands and boyfriends…it only ended when they both moved out for good and she was single for about 8 years.

She’s resorted to playing a lot of games with us over our unwillingness to incorporate her new partner because they don’t know what to expect, they don’t trust her and they don’t want to expose her 6 grandchildren to anything.

I have a feeling were going to have to cut contact with her because she has been disappointing our kids in terms of birthdays, all holidays and Christenings…over the past year.

Right now we don’t call her and she is cut off from babysitting and seeing the kids…basically because we don’t really trust what she’ll do.

I know this story sounds tame and that I’m being irrational but I have to protect my husband and not go spilling his life’s story…even on an anonymous forum.

Trust me on the details…it was terrible hearing about them from recent conversations with my husband and SIL…I didn’t realize how deep the rabbit hole went.

 

[alphawoman]

Yeah, purchasing a wedding dress to attend a wedding other than your own is definitely strange behaviour and in poor taste. No reasonable person attempts to be the center of attention on someone else’s milestone occasion.

I have a black sheep in my own extended family who is delusional, histrionic, and attempts to stir up drama by telling lies to family members about each other. My husband’s family has characters with varying degrees of challenges, particularly with respect to gossip and slander. The only real solution is to shut down all attention to those antics and to vociferously defend the truth. With one, we’ve had to entirely withdraw contact because repeat attempts at civil relationships have been disrespected. We have also, at various points, had to limit contact with family members who enable the problem individual. The challenge is that, in families where mental illness and psychological conditions predominate, there is no internal yardstick for the family to judge normalcy, and conditions go undiagnosed because “the whole family is dramatic”, or some equal nonsense.

EasterJoy posted excellent information above. I’d like to highlight the following point:

“8. The best way to protect yourself from a sociopath is to avoid him, to refuse any kind of contact or communication. Sociopaths live completely outside of the social contract, and therefore to include them in relationships or other social arrangements is perilous.”

 

[1990Domer]

sigh When will everyone figure it out, that if we start putting labels on people this only acts as an excuse to treat them differently than the what the Lord has asked.

ANY psychiatrist, psychologist… etc WILL give you a label if you go in there to see them… that is their job to label, discuss and come up with something, their take on the matter. You here have said that yours stopped short of ‘labeling’- “official diagnosis”… but you do realize you have already USED it on her here… ** you already believe it, and if you believe it you will act upon that belief, and even see things you feel will validate that belief.** When it comes to psychology, you aren’t going to be told you, or anyone you are having difficulties with, are “normal”. There is no book in psychology that describes what is normal… anyone ever notice that? <----- That should be concerning. And truly none of us are “normal” because we are humans who are prone to sin due to fallen nature. How about just seeing her as a human and a troubled one. Skip the label, and stop looking for traits… its as bad as astrology… honestly. Frankly, people should know that psychology has its roots in the occult. The founder was very much against Christ. I don’t say that to discount any of the discoveries made since, but its not an exact science.

Yes,* there are problems * (there are real disorders) and most definitely problem people… but if you start seeing them as affected somehow, you will most likely start to fear them and treat them differently and thus miss the mark from how the Lord wants them to be effected, and thus bring NO healing to them… only pure love from Jesus heals, kills conflict, … there is no peace except peace in Christ. Start there, not with what some psychiatrist’s offhand opinion said about them. You are inviting trouble, and so many many many people do this when they should rather be praying a rosary and laying down the love as Christ said to love. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE … etc. Its VERY difficult, but I know from experience it works… much better than pills and ‘therapy’ too.

In all Christian charity, I have to disagree with this. I grew up in a dysfunctional household, and it took me to age 30 to finally understand that my mom’s behavior (very close to what the OP described) was not my fault. It was not my job as an infant, toddler, pre-teen, and on to “keep her calm.” Heck, I was literally the perfect child (straight A’s, never got in trouble, went on to a great career) for her sake. If she misinterpreted something and I tried to correct her, the rages started. While living under her roof, I would get the pee beat out of me and she would lock herself in her room, not talking to me, for days on end. My poor dad was so passive that he was absolutely no help. He just reinforced that I had to keep my mom calm. The book Stop Walking on Eggshells was an incredible.

I went to see a psychologist with DH to talk about our infertility. During that time, my mom had another “episode.” We asked the counselor what we did wrong. She said, it’s not you…it’s your mom. Wow, what a relief but the hardest work was to come. I had to learn to set very strict boundaries. When I did and she got angry, we would go without talking for months…many months. She would write horribly nasty notes and call out of the blue and rage at me again. She took very little slights and distorted them to horrible proportions. My DH is a saint for 1) marrying me, as I learned some bad habits and 2) being my rock and helping me built my self esteem (although he needed several reminders that it was his duty to deal with his batty mother–his word, not mine).

I have been in therapy in every state I lived. I was witty enough to explain my issues only, which allow the psychiatrist (I used one that did not take insurance as they are less hassled with insurance reimbursements). Each therapist came to the same conclusion. During many talks with priests in and out of confession, they told me I had to protect myself and my family because it wasn’t my duty to endure such behaviors.

On the heart-to-heart talks, they only brought on rages. My view of life was see as a bunch of lies, so that approach was tried early on in my life and was a total fail. Often, the term splitting is used when a BPD rages, as they often have no recollection of the ugly incident–the hurtful words, the treatment, etc.

To end, I will say that my son was never allowed to stay over my parents because we couldn’t risk a rage in front of him without me or DH around. Learning boundaries were the best thing I ever did.

I will say that if a person is suspected of BPD, it is nearly impossible to get them into therapy because they think everyone else has the problem. Sadly, the diagnosis is made when a therapist sees the wounds that resulted from such personalities.

 

[1990Domer]

My MIL has a lot of issues. She’s never been diagnosed with anything but there is a heavy history of mental instability on her side of the family.

We haven’t gone totally no contact with her but I’m prepared to.

She is about to get married for a third time and is completely offended that neither her son or daughter want anything to do with this new fiancé of hers. I don’t blame either my husband or SIL to be honest.

I won’t go into the details but both my husband and SIL have suffered a lot in terms of abuse from her and her various ex husbands and boyfriends…it only ended when they both moved out for good and she was single for about 8 years.

She’s resorted to playing a lot of games with us over our unwillingness to incorporate her new partner because they don’t know what to expect, they don’t trust her and they don’t want to expose her 6 grandchildren to anything.

I have a feeling were going to have to cut contact with her because she has been disappointing our kids in terms of birthdays, all holidays and Christenings…over the past year.

Right now we don’t call her and she is cut off from babysitting and seeing the kids…basically because we don’t really trust what she’ll do.

I know this story sounds tame and that I’m being irrational but I have to protect my husband and not go spilling his life’s story…even on an anonymous forum.

Trust me on the details…it was terrible hearing about them from recent conversations with my husband and SIL…I didn’t realize how deep the rabbit hole went.

I admire you for your courage. God bless you that you realize the peril it could bring to your children!

 

[EasterJoy]

sigh When will everyone figure it out, that if we start putting labels on people this only acts as an excuse to treat them differently than the what the Lord has asked.

ANY psychiatrist, psychologist… etc WILL give you a label if you go in there to see them… that is their job to label, discuss and come up with something, their take on the matter. You here have said that yours stopped short of ‘labeling’- “official diagnosis”… but you do realize you have already USED it on her here… ** you already believe it, and if you believe it you will act upon that belief, and even see things you feel will validate that belief.** When it comes to psychology, you aren’t going to be told you, or anyone you are having difficulties with, are “normal”. There is no book in psychology that describes what is normal… anyone ever notice that? <----- That should be concerning. And truly none of us are “normal” because we are humans who are prone to sin due to fallen nature. How about just seeing her as a human and a troubled one. Skip the label, and stop looking for traits… its as bad as astrology… honestly. Frankly, people should know that psychology has its roots in the occult. The founder was very much against Christ. I don’t say that to discount any of the discoveries made since, but its not an exact science.

Yes,* there are problems * (there are real disorders) and most definitely problem people… but if you start seeing them as affected somehow, you will most likely start to fear them and treat them differently and thus miss the mark from how the Lord wants them to be effected, and thus bring NO healing to them… only pure love from Jesus heals, kills conflict, … there is no peace except peace in Christ. Start there, not with what some psychiatrist’s offhand opinion said about them. You are inviting trouble, and so many many many people do this when they should rather be praying a rosary and laying down the love as Christ said to love. LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE … etc. Its VERY difficult, but I know from experience it works… much better than pills and ‘therapy’ too.

What are you even talking about? Did you read my post? Where did I suggest labeling people or treating them differently? What did I suggest doing that was uncharitable?

What a manipulative person wants is precisely the opposite of what you are suggesting. They *do not *want to be treated as if they are the same as everyone else, unless the way you treat everyone else is to make endless excuses for them and to feel sorry for them when they deserve to bear the natural consequences that any normal person expects to bear when they are responsible for harming someone else. They want to be an exception. They want people to feel sorry for them. They want the pity of good people, which they know is carte blanche. For the good of their souls–because even though they don’t feel bad about choosing evil they are capable of knowing what is acceptable and what is not and doing what is right when they decide to do it–they need to be spared the temptation of taking advantage of others. (We used to call this sparing others a near occasion of sin in the old days.)

What is uncharitable is your characterization of psychology and psychiatry. To say that what you wrote is an example of rash judgment would be a gross understatement. If you keep someone who needs help from seeking it out because you judge and write off the entire field of psychology and psychiatry in the way you have, you will have done people who need the help of professionals in those fields a real disservice. Psychiatrists and psychologists can help people learn how to break out of ways of behaving that would otherwise poison their relationships with others and doom them to suffer from treatable disorders. Think about that.

 

[EasterJoy]

Playing devil’s advocate here… How is this attention seeking? What if she was having a difficult time finding a dress she liked and then bought one which happened to be a wedding dress and decided the best thing to do was just to dye it? What she exhibiting any other behavior that says she was definitely attention seeking? Just wondering, because this is how it starts. Someone does something construed as odd and the belief about them goes from there. Have you ever done anything that others have considered ‘odd’? Are you sure?

Again, how does this verify to any of us that she is indeed the problem… maybe its both of you? Maybe you did something to cause their behavior? Do you see where I’m going with this? … Everyone does this these days and I’m so tired of hearing these diagnosis’s thrown around like everyone has great insight into the souls of another. I’ll be in conversation with someone and they will start talking about so and so being 'fill in the blank psychiatric disorder" when they have no diagnosis. Its so prevalent and its dividing. Its an excuse to not love as the Lord said to.

Everyone is at ease in judging until they find that finger pointing back at them someday.

Again, I don’t want to say that there are no problem people or behaviors that are bad or wrong, but seriously, its getting out of hand. I hear and see it everywhere and people use it to justify themselves and their actions, when they don’t realize that someone probably is already doing the same to them, and they don’t know it… yet. What happens to the lot of these people is that they become ‘throw aways’ in society. Have you actually sat her down and had a heart to heart talk about those things you mention here, asked her why she wore the dyed wedding dress? Asked her if she realizes how she came across? DO those things FIRST. Christ says to go to those who have offended us and keep it between the two of you first. IF they refuse to listen then take it to the church. have you done that in this case? Yes, its very difficult, but people take the easy way out these days and its killing society.

Did you say, “the easy way out”? For someone who gets so upset when she believes someone is being unfairly judged, you seem to be very quick to question whether the OP is telling the whole truth about herself and her SIL.

Please explain what this passage of Holy Scriptures means, reconciling the last verse with the first five.

*"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove that splinter from your eye,’ while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.
“Do not give what is holy to dogs, or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces.” *Matt. 7:1-6

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you for saying this, this is very thoughtful.

I agree that we should not throw people away and that love, love and more love is the answer! I also agree that only pure love from Jesus heals and kills conflict you are so right. Sometimes, during honestly abusive situations a person has to love from a distance that’s all. Through prayer, hopefully a person can discern when a relationship is healthy and when it is proper to try and work it out and when it is best to step away for a while and pray for the person. Psychology can help with some insight but it is not the answer that is for certain. It can be tricky figuring out when to try and work it out and when it’s best to give distance some times. I know that God commands us to love, however God does not command us to be in a regular ongoing consistent relationship that is stressful it is possible to step away for a time and be obedient to the commandments. God bless.

The Flight to Egypt was **not **taking the easy way out…

 

[Sophie_Lawrence]

Hi. Thank you, Easter Joy, for the list you provided.

I’m not sure she is a sociopath. We believe that it might be borderline personality disorder by her actions and temperament. She hasn’t been to see a psychologist to my knowledge.

She has a background of very volatile relationships, some criminal activity although the person did not press charges.

She hasn’t treated my husband well unless she’s looking for something.

With my children, she expected my children to be the best friends of her children, and would scold my kids if they played with other kids at functions, that they were not paying enough attention to her kids.

She has some paranoid tendencies as well. She accused one SIL of conspiring with her ex-husband. A best friendship was ended because that person was conspiring with her ex husband as well.

I know her MO, she verbally eviscerates anyone who is an “enemy”, so I can just imagine the things she is saying about my character and my children.

I hope I can explain this well, but I always felt bad for not having a closer relationship with her, and thought that maybe I was judging her too harshly. So I honestly tried. I’d interact with her even without my husband so our children could interact.

I really did not expect (or I guess I should have) this attack to the jugular just for bringing some behavior up to her regarding her kids.

On a side note, regarding my MIL. She purposefully went to a bridal shop to purposefully purchase a wedding dress to wear to my wedding. It isn’t as if she couldn’t find a dress and had to settle for a wedding gown. I mentioned it as a symptom of histrionic personality disorder. People with that disorder need to be the center of attention.

Would this be a better example? My husband had to have cancer surgery a number of years ago. Cancer. She scheduled an elective surgical procedure for herself on the same day. It wasn’t urgent at all, it could have waited for another day perhaps.

Also for the record, I have managed to establish good boundaries with my MIL. But my MIL isn’t ever aggressive or verbally abusive though.

My SIL is.

 

[EasterJoy]

Hi. Thank you, Easter Joy, for the list you provided.

I’m not sure she is a sociopath. We believe that it might be borderline personality disorder by her actions and temperament. She hasn’t been to see a psychologist to my knowledge.

She has a background of very volatile relationships, some criminal activity although the person did not press charges.

She hasn’t treated my husband well unless she’s looking for something.

With my children, she expected my children to be the best friends of her children, and would scold my kids if they played with other kids at functions, that they were not paying enough attention to her kids.

She has some paranoid tendencies as well. She accused one SIL of conspiring with her ex-husband. A best friendship was ended because that person was conspiring with her ex husband as well.

I know her MO, she verbally eviscerates anyone who is an “enemy”, so I can just imagine the things she is saying about my character and my children.

I hope I can explain this well, but I always felt bad for not having a closer relationship with her, and thought that maybe I was judging her too harshly. So I honestly tried. I’d interact with her even without my husband so our children could interact.

I really did not expect (or I guess I should have) this attack to the jugular just for bringing some behavior up to her regarding her kids.

On a side note, regarding my MIL. She purposefully went to a bridal shop to purposefully purchase a wedding dress to wear to my wedding. It isn’t as if she couldn’t find a dress and had to settle for a wedding gown.

Here is the great thing I’ve found: there is a way to treat everybody that both serves mercy and yet protects against those who would do you (and their own souls) harm by taking advantage of you. If you learn how to live with a sociopath, you haven’t ruined yourself for people who are unreliable for reasons beyond their control. If you learn to deal with an addict, you haven’t ruined yourself for people who are clean and sober. What you do, instead, is to balance mercy with justice and refuse to let people who want to take advantage of getting themselves made into the exception to every rule. You choose healthy boundaries that you can use with everyone, and then you stick to them.

I mean that I don’t have a single sociopath in my life, nor a single alcoholic, and yet I’ve found Sociopath Next Door and Co-Dependent No More two the most useful books I’ve ever read. As Anne Elizabeth said, the people with serious problems and the ones with more typical problems of a similar sort aren’t all that different. The wrong-headed strategies human nature resorts to are remarkably the same.

Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves. Matt. 10:16

When the enemies of the Lord tried to trap Him in speech and He saw right through them, did He not give them an answer that both frustrated them and yet also edified everyone who reflected on His words? If we are not lead into a false “love” that does not require any concept of sin or repentance, we don’t have to fear treating everyone the same. We won’t get taken advantage of in an inappropriate way, but in a way that fulfills the command: "Be perfect, just as your Heavenly Father is perfect (Matt. 5:48)…he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. (Matt. 5:45)"

Your MIL is facing natural consequence not because you’ve judged her as a person but because you’ve experienced how she treats people. You have the relationship that her behavior allows to happen. Don’t punish yourself for failing to provide both sides of a relationship. It cannot be done. Even God must allow us to come to Him for reconciliation. It only takes God to forgive, but reconciliation and rebuilding a relationship broken by sin takes the will and cooperation of both sides. If the need for repentance and a desire to reconcile were not the ultimate way of Love, then the Sacrament of Penance would not be the great gift that it is.

 

[UbiCaritas]

I once had a very traditional priest (FSSP, as it happens) give me the following very sensible advice about my mother.

I explained, in the course of Confession, about her usual behavior: the sabotaging of important events, the deliberate unkindness, and so on. I mentioned that I kept trying to do the “right” thing by calling, sending cards, etc, but that every time I did, she’d turn around and use the opportunity to treat me badly, and that as a result I’d have very uncharitable thoughts towards her or simply not contact her for months to avoid the situation.

He told me that I should stop giving her the opportunity to sin. I should, he emphasized, continue to pray for her and wish her the best, and if something major happens (say, she went through rehab and maintained sobriety for some time), I could certainly re-evaluate my boundaries, but that it wasn’t doing either one of us any spiritual or emotional good for her to get to use me as an emotional punching bag every time we had contact.

Smart man, that.

 

[EasterJoy]

Even Our Lord could not force a relationship with those who were chosen–and who fancied themselves worthy of the relationship and meritorious in the relationship!–but who tried to choose their own terms instead of doing what was actually necessary to make the relationship happen:

*Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! * Matt. 23:37

 

[EasterJoy]

I once had a very traditional priest (FSSP, as it happens) give me the following very sensible advice about my mother.

I explained, in the course of Confession, about her usual behavior: the sabotaging of important events, the deliberate unkindness, and so on. I mentioned that I kept trying to do the “right” thing by calling, sending cards, etc, but that every time I did, she’d turn around and use the opportunity to treat me badly, and that as a result I’d have very uncharitable thoughts towards her or simply not contact her for months to avoid the situation.

He told me that I should stop giving her the opportunity to sin. I should, he emphasized, continue to pray for her and wish her the best, and if something major happens (say, she went through rehab and maintained sobriety for some time), I could certainly re-evaluate my boundaries, but that it wasn’t doing either one of us any spiritual or emotional good for her to get to use me as an emotional punching bag every time we had contact.

Smart man, that.

This! That was a wise man!

Even Our Lord could not force a relationship with those who were chosen–and who fancied themselves worthy of the relationship and meritorious in the relationship!–but who tried to choose their own terms instead of doing what was actually necessary to make the relationship happen:

*Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! * Matt. 23:37

 

[1990Domer]

What are you even talking about? Did you read my post? Where did I suggest labeling people or treating them differently? What did I suggest doing that was uncharitable?

What a manipulative person wants is precisely the opposite of what you are suggesting. They *do not *want to be treated as if they are the same as everyone else, unless the way you treat everyone else is to make endless excuses for them and to feel sorry for them when they deserve to bear the natural consequences that any normal person expects to bear when they are responsible for harming someone else. They want to be an exception. They want people to feel sorry for them. They want the pity of good people, which they know is carte blanche. For the good of their souls–because even though they don’t feel bad about choosing evil they are capable of knowing what is acceptable and what is not and doing what is right when they decide to do it–they need to be spared the temptation of taking advantage of others. (We used to call this sparing others a near occasion of sin in the old days.)

What is uncharitable is your characterization of psychology and psychiatry. To say that what you wrote is an example of rash judgment would be a gross understatement. If you keep someone who needs help from seeking it out because you judge and write off the entire field of psychology and psychiatry in the way you have, you will have done people who need the help of professionals in those fields a real disservice. Psychiatrists and psychologists can help people learn how to break out of ways of behaving that would otherwise poison their relationships with others and doom them to suffer from treatable disorders. Think about that.

I think EJ nailed it with her last paragraph. Thank you for writing what I was feeling!

 

[1990Domer]

Hi. Thank you, Easter Joy, for the list you provided.

I’m not sure she is a sociopath. We believe that it might be borderline personality disorder by her actions and temperament. She hasn’t been to see a psychologist to my knowledge.

She has a background of very volatile relationships, some criminal activity although the person did not press charges.

She hasn’t treated my husband well unless she’s looking for something.

With my children, she expected my children to be the best friends of her children, and would scold my kids if they played with other kids at functions, that they were not paying enough attention to her kids.

She has some paranoid tendencies as well. She accused one SIL of conspiring with her ex-husband. A best friendship was ended because that person was conspiring with her ex husband as well.

I know her MO, she verbally eviscerates anyone who is an “enemy”, so I can just imagine the things she is saying about my character and my children.

I hope I can explain this well, but I always felt bad for not having a closer relationship with her, and thought that maybe I was judging her too harshly. So I honestly tried. I’d interact with her even without my husband so our children could interact.

I really did not expect (or I guess I should have) this attack to the jugular just for bringing some behavior up to her regarding her kids.

On a side note, regarding my MIL. She purposefully went to a bridal shop to purposefully purchase a wedding dress to wear to my wedding. It isn’t as if she couldn’t find a dress and had to settle for a wedding gown. I mentioned it as a symptom of histrionic personality disorder. People with that disorder need to be the center of attention.

Would this be a better example? My husband had to have cancer surgery a number of years ago. Cancer. She scheduled an elective surgical procedure for herself on the same day. It wasn’t urgent at all, it could have waited for another day perhaps.

Also for the record, I have managed to establish good boundaries with my MIL. But my MIL isn’t ever aggressive or verbally abusive though.

My SIL is.

Oddly, your SIL presents like my mom and your MIL presents like my sister. With my mom, who could be physically but mainly verbally abusive, we had to set boundaries and keep them. That was very hard for me to learn. Also, a very interesting characteristic of her illness was the facade to strangers that nothing was wrong. She could have cut me out of her life for months, but only those involved knew it…usually immediate family members. We feared of more reprisals if we told someone else.

I am not sure what the definition of a sociopath is, honestly. However, the more I learned about BPD, the more my younger years made sense. I will pray for both your family. You have a tough situation.

 

[mommy_k]

A bpd person also inflicts pain on themselves-ie:cutting and so on.
A histrionic person is all getting attention through drama, sexually inappropriateness and has rages.

Both are ‘me’ focused.

To deal with a histrionic person is to remain unflappabble, to deal with a bpd person is the reverse as they can hurt themselves severely.

You are dealing with toxic people, whether or not they are the above and I personlly would limit my time with them.