My SIL told my son he's a "mean little boy" - what to do?

[pensmama87]

Yes. While it isn’t realistic to believe that young children are going to have the capacity to show good manners without fail, we can’t wait to learn good behavior until we are old enough to have the full control needed to do it on a high level. It is enough that they have some capacity to understand what is expected, and that we have patience with those we are teaching in measure with their limited capacity.

It is like praying with a child who is too young to be expected to memorize the prayers on their own. They can start getting the idea and forming good habits and expectations long before they’re old enough to do the right thing without prompted on a regular basis.

Yes, I do agree with this.

That’s part of the reason I’m hesitant to label a child as bad or mean (even if their behavior is.) Internalizing the message that normal human impulses make you a horrible person, before you’ve even had a chance to develop the discipline to redirect them, is not a good way to grow up. I am not proud of it, but I think mean thoughts and wish to behave badly a LOT. But thankfully I have developed the self-discipline to not engage in it, most of the time, and my assessment of my worth of a person is not dependent on how often I experience those impulses.

 

[mommamaree]

I guess we are interpreting our children’s behavior differently. My 3yo son can do the same thing as your daughter, but I interpret it as he has figured out that shoving/punching/whatever will get him what he wants. He may want to make his brother cry, but he doesn’t really get that when his brother cries, it’s the same awful feelings that he has that make him cry.

I don’t use that as an excuse to avoid punishment - regardless of the reason, it’s inappropriate and as soon as he can handle himself, I expect him to. It’s just that always been my understanding that children don’t really develop the awareness that others feel in the same way they do until much later childhood (and even many adults never get there.)

Also, our children, while similar in age, are individuals with their own experiences and temperaments. You know best what is going on with your own child. I do know, however, that my daughter is aware of how others feel, does hurt intentionally in revenge or retaliation or just for the fun of it, and is also capable of growing in empathy. So, while I object to the general pronouncements of modern parenting experts, I make no such general statements of my own to the contrary. I just think that parents should be aware that it is possible for their children to be intentionally hurtful and to grasp empathy, even at rather young age. We all watch for signs of readiness in other aspects of development, so this is no different, in my opinion. Just like some children potty train as young toddlers, and others cannot physically handle it until they are older preschoolers.

 

[Serap]

See, I disagree. I think little children can understand that others have feelings and that they can intentionally be hurtful. When my 3yo daughter gets in her older brother’s face and grits her teeth and squeezes her fists and makes threatening growls or grimaces at him, she means to threaten him with what she will do next. Then when she rears back and punches him, she means it to hurt him. And when she takes his drawing or his toy and rips or breaks it, she wants to make him cry. So, I tell her rightly that she is being mean, and I isolate or confine her. Then when she realizes the results of her anti-social behaviour, she becomes contrite. She wants to apologize and make up. She squeezes her brother with a giant hug and says “I am sorry I was so mean to you. Will you please forgive me?” I think children often become aware that others have feelings, and can be intentionally hurtful, sometimes years earlier than modern childhood experts will admit. Of course, every child is different, so parents can take notice of when their own child has gained that awareness and can tailor their corrections of aggressive behavior appropriately.

would you say these words, “You are a mean little girl!!” to your daughter though?

 

[pensmama87]

At any rate, it’s not Serap’s SIL’s call on whether or not Serap’s son is a mean little boy or not, and the sooner SIL learns that, the better.

 

[robertmidwest]

SIL was out of line.

Yes kids should be polite and respectful and obey rules. There are no perfect people and at 4 yo the standard of grace needs to be extended.

If SIL felt the childs behavior needed to be corrected she was within her right to do so in her home. Judging the child’s character is not correcting behavior. She had no right to tell the kid he is “bad”. If SIL feels this is an on going issue she should discuss it with you or your husband. My guess she is a coward and won’t, that is why she (an adult) attacted a 4 yo.

This needs to be resolved. Discuss with your husband and have him talk to her. You run the risk of being the “family outsider” causing trouble in his family. If he refuses you will have to talk to her. One way or the other this needs to stop.

 

[Serap]

I’d talk to those other people about it afterwards. If you don’t correct her but wish that someone would, tell them that. If you all decide that it is better to leave the SIL alone so that she doesn’t have a real blow-up, then do that. Tell them that you would not mind them stepping in and saying, “Jon, why don’t we go outside together?” so that you can talk to your SIL without correcting her in front of your son.

Feeling out how the rest of the family believes the situation ought to be handled in general will help you decide the best game plan with your son concerning how to handle her rude remarks towards him. Maybe you can tell him to simply say, “I am sorry I hurt your feelings” and then leave the room or go to you, and you can take over from there in dealing with your SIL.

Whatever you do, though, do not give him permission to be rude to people he doesn’t happen to like. Do tell him that you totally understand the temptation, but explain that we can’t do everything we’re very tempted to do. If you decide there are situations where you are not going to come to his defense when he is being treated unfairly, explain why. “I don’t correct Auntie because she has problems and that would make them worse. I understand why you don’t like being around her, and we’ll try to keep you as far from her as you can. When you are near her, though, you have to be as nice as you can, even when she is not.”

I used to tell my children, “If you use the behavior of the worst person as your excuse to act badly, you’ll always be among the worst-behaved people in any room. Polite people stick to polite behavior, even when others don’t. Kind people stick to kind behavior, even when others don’t. If you want to stand out in a good way, you have to be willing to rise above those who stand out in a bad way.”

My son and I talked about it and while I told him that he’s not a mean boy, he still has to be nice to his cousin and to his auntie. I told him that he has to be a good boy when he’s visiting.

IMO it’s still not right to call a young child a “mean little boy/girl.” I always address the behaviour without insulting.

I will say, “That’s not nice!! If you won’t be nice you will go to your room! Now you give that toy back…” or whatever the behaviour is.

 

[pensmama87]

My son and I talked about it and while I told him that he’s not a mean boy, he still has to be nice to his cousin and to his auntie. **I told him that he has to be a good boy when he’s visiting. **

IMO it’s still not right to call a young child a “mean little boy/girl.” I always address the behaviour without insulting.

I will say, “That’s not nice!! If you won’t be nice you will go to your room! Now you give that toy back…” or whatever the behaviour is.

I know you mean well, but IMO this is the other side of the same coin and should probably not be said either. Your son’s goodness or badness/value as a person is NOT contingent on his behavior. If he misbehaves, is he no longer a “good boy?”

 

[robertmidwest]

SIL was out of line.

Yes kids should be polite and respectful and obey rules. There are no perfect people and at 4 yo the standard of grace needs to be extended.

If SIL felt the childs behavior needed to be corrected she was within her right to do so in her home. Judging the child’s character is not correcting behavior. She had no right to tell the kid he is “bad”. If SIL feels this is an on going issue she should discuss it with you or your husband. My guess she is a coward and won’t, that is why she (an adult) attacted a 4 yo.

This needs to be resolved. Discuss with your husband and have him talk to her. You run the risk of being the “family outsider” causing trouble in his family. If he refuses you will have to talk to her. One way or the other this needs to stop.

I have to clarify my own post here.

The NEED to correct the situation is only as great as is the necessity to to leave your child in her care. SIL has sibling rivalry or jeaulousy issues that are probably going to be hard to resolve (and it not your responsibily to resolve them). The simple solution may be to not leave your child in her care. If at a later day she asks why your son doesn’t come over then tell her the reason. In any event you need to discuss this with your husband and make sure you are on same page with him (he is going ot back up your joint decision).

Please pray on this for guidance. Ask your husband to pray also.

 

[mommamaree]

would you say these words, “You are a mean little girl!!” to your daughter though?

No. I don’t know if you happened to see my first post in this thread, but I do believe there is a huge difference between labeling a behavior and labeling a person. I have no qualms about calling out a child on their poor behavior, whether it be disrespect or aggression or destructiveness, and calling the behavior what it is. But I would not address the child as if that poor behavior defines them as a person.

For example, I might say “don’t be sassy” but I would not say “you are just a sass-mouth”.

I am aware, however, that some people would see no difference between the two, and would either accept both pronouncements or reject both. I think it is important for a person to be able to judge an action as right or wrong, without it being taken to the degree of condemning a person.

However, when speaking to a child that is not my own, I would be even more careful that however I correct poor behavior, that I am not overly harsh or critical of the child. I have had to correct other children before, when they were in my care and were getting out of hand, and I try to be even more diplomatic and neutral about it.

Anyway, a long-winded answer for a simple question. Sorry. But I hope that my first post was clear. My later posts were more addressing things that pensmama and I were discussing in relation to general child correction. I didn’t mean to get off-topic.

 

[mommamaree]

I know you mean well, but IMO this is the other side of the same coin and should probably not be said either. Your son’s goodness or badness/value as a person is NOT contingent on his behavior. If he misbehaves, is he no longer a “good boy?”

Here again, I will politely disagree. (Just for the sake of discussion, not to be rude.)

I know that this won’t work for everyone, but with my preschooler who gets so aggressive (and she is the first of my children to have this temperament) she says “I be a good girl now” when she is ready to come make up with whomever she has offended. I don’t know what prompted her to start using that phrase in that way, but that is a very big motivator for her. It is almost like she is saying “I am ready to behave myself and be around people again” but does not have the vocabulary to express that. So, we have adopted her simple phrase. We tell her that when she is ready to be a good girl again, she may come back out and join us. She is a child of extremes. Both very aggressive and then very loving. I think reminding her about “being a good girl” gives her an option, one that is entirely within her control, to overcome her passions and make the choice to “be good” again.

With other children, it might perhaps be a damaging phrase to use, which is why I always advocate tailoring parental corrections to the temperament of one’s own child, and being very very neutral when needing to correct someone else’s child.

Just my :twocents:

 

[pensmama87]

Here again, I will politely disagree. (Just for the sake of discussion, not to be rude.)

I know that this won’t work for everyone, but with my preschooler who gets so aggressive (and she is the first of my children to have this temperament) she says “I be a good girl now” when she is ready to come make up with whomever she has offended. I don’t know what prompted her to start using that phrase in that way, but that is a very big motivator for her. It is almost like she is saying “I am ready to behave myself and be around people again” but does not have the vocabulary to express that. So, we have adopted her simple phrase. We tell her that when she is ready to be a good girl again, she may come back out and join us. She is a child of extremes. Both very aggressive and then very loving. I think reminding her about “being a good girl” gives her an option, one that is entirely within her control, to overcome her passions and make the choice to “be good” again.

With other children, it might perhaps be a damaging phrase to use, which is why I always advocate tailoring parental corrections to the temperament of one’s own child, and being very very neutral when needing to correct someone else’s child.

Just my :twocents:

That’s fair. I think I tend to be very cautious because I currently get paid to care for other people’s children. One set of parents actively uses the “Were you bad/were you good” language at pickup, and I cringe every time I hear it. Their oldest child, who is almost 6, is now in school, but when I had him I had to be very careful when disciplining because he took all discipline so incredibly personally. He thought it meant I didn’t like him and that he was bad. I don’t suspect abuse or anything like that, but what a thing to put on a child!

 

[pianistclare]

He sounds like a mean little boy (at least some of the time) to me.

Of course it is. How are they to be corrected if the needed correction can’t be identified.

Frankly, I’d be more concerned over this:

So, you allow your four year old to disrespect an adult uncorrected, and then you come here complaining that the adult describes him as a “mean little boy”?

Really?

That’s what came to mind for me as well…we can’t treat children like adults. It’s not fair to them. They are to be instructed, loved, and cherished.
Allowing them all the “perks” of grown-ups (and I use the term perks tongue n cheek)
is to fail to give them the necessary age appropriate boundaries for successful social development and interaction.
IOW, stop fretting over this. She’s an adult that you don’t care for. He’s a very small child. that you love.
Work on the things you can mold/fix/shape.
It’s not up to you to work on her issues. You have to teach your son courtesy, boundaries, and respect.

 

[mommamaree]

That’s fair. I think I tend to be very cautious because I currently get paid to care for other people’s children. One set of parents actively uses the “Were you bad/were you good” language at pickup, and I cringe every time I hear it. Their oldest child, who is almost 6, is now in school, but when I had him I had to be very careful when disciplining because he took all discipline so incredibly personally. He thought it meant I didn’t like him and that he was bad. I don’t suspect abuse or anything like that, but what a thing to put on a child!

That child sounds like my oldest, a 9yo girl. She takes correction very personally, and so I have to be very careful how I correct her. I use the “compliment sandwich” approach with her. Remind her of one of her good qualities - Object to her current poor behavior/choice - Exhort her to be the best version of herself. This has always worked with her, but I can forget about it working on her little sister.

To Serap - the thing I find so concerning is the serious lack of love from your SIL toward your son (her own nephew!). Whatever wording she used to “correct” him or whatever she was doing, her behavior in the family has been focused upon tearing him down. I cannot tell you what to do, but if I was experiencing my SIL tearing down any of my children, I would speak up immediately and tell her in no uncertain terms that her critical words should be kept to herself and that any problems she has with his behavior should be addressed privately and discreetly with me and my husband. But then again, I have the reputation in my husband’s family of not tolerating any rudeness or put-downs. It works out pretty well for me now, because any bad behavior from my children will be blamed on me, and my children will be left out of the conversation. I don’t know if that route will work for you, but it is an idea to consider, making yourself the blameworthy party and distracting the SIL’s attention from your son. Good luck. This is a hard situation.

 

[EasterJoy]

That child sounds like my oldest, a 9yo girl. She takes correction very personally, and so I have to be very careful how I correct her. I use the “compliment sandwich” approach with her. Remind her of one of her good qualities - Object to her current poor behavior/choice - Exhort her to be the best version of herself. This has always worked with her, but I can forget about it working on her little sister.

Nine is kind of young for it, but as she matures it would be good for her to learn that correction is something that everyone needs and that those who achieve excellence tend to welcome more than other people do. If you are not being corrected, it still pays to look for ways to improve. Part of that is looking for ways to make your self-correction into *self-coaching *instead of self-policing. People who self-coach will coach and encourage others, because that is their habit of thinking about failures and improvement. People who self-police, in contrast, will make themselves into the world’s police and not the good protective kind of police, either! There is no question which group are more welcome and do more good in the world. (Even the best police officers prefer to do their jobs by coaching the public to be safer!)

Your “best version of yourself” emphasis is excellent! It is the direct opposite of the “you are mean” tactic.

To Serap - the thing I find so concerning is the serious lack of love from your SIL toward your son (her own nephew!). Whatever wording she used to “correct” him or whatever she was doing, her behavior in the family has been focused upon tearing him down. I cannot tell you what to do, but if I was experiencing my SIL tearing down any of my children, I would speak up immediately and tell her in no uncertain terms that her critical words should be kept to herself and that any problems she has with his behavior should be addressed privately and discreetly with me and my husband. But then again, I have the reputation in my husband’s family of not tolerating any rudeness or put-downs. It works out pretty well for me now, because any bad behavior from my children will be blamed on me, and my children will be left out of the conversation. I don’t know if that route will work for you, but it is an idea to consider, making yourself the blameworthy party and distracting the SIL’s attention from your son. Good luck. This is a hard situation.

I thought the OP made it clear that the SIL lacks some capacity, including a reliable capacity to control herself. She is unpredictable, and that may not be something that she could help if she wanted to change. I’d protect my kids from her, but I’d also let them know that she can have trouble calming herself down, and it helps her to avoid anything to stir her up more when she’s already overwhelmed with negative feelings.

This is something that a four-year-old might easily have recently experienced both with other 4 year-olds and in his own emotions: that is, a 4 year-old might know first-hand what emotional “flooding” feels like. Explained that way, he might be able to connect his impulse issues with hers and self-coach both to give her room when she seems emotionally flooded, give his little friends room when they are flooding, and give himself room when his own emotional flooding makes him a social danger to himself or others. It is a social recognition skill well worth learning.

 

[mommamaree]

Nine is kind of young for it, but as she matures it would be good for her to learn that correction is something that everyone needs and that those who achieve excellence tend to welcome more than other people do. If you are not being corrected, it still pays to look for ways to improve. Part of that is looking for ways to make your self-correction into *self-coaching *instead of self-policing. People who self-coach will coach and encourage others, because that is their habit of thinking about failures and improvement. People who self-police, in contrast, will make themselves into the world’s police and not the good protective kind of police, either! There is no question which group are more welcome and do more good in the world. (Even the best police officers prefer to do their jobs by coaching the public to be safer!)

Your “best version of yourself” emphasis is excellent! It is the direct opposite of the “you are mean” tactic.

Actually, 9 is not too young for us to be teaching that. My husband and I, in just the past year, have added that aspect into our correction of her behavior. Especially when she acts like she is cowed by our “rage”, or acts like we are yelling, when we are merely speaking in a firm and direct manner, we have first addressed your point, that we all need to be corrected and we all need to learn how to accept correction, and then we proceed to deal with the initial behavior that prompted correction. Parenting certainly is not easy! With my own children, the thing I hold to be most important is that whatever corrections must be made, I must strive to always make my child feel like their place in my heart is secure and that whatever corrections I must make are because I love them and all my children.

I thought the OP made it clear that the SIL lacks some capacity, including a reliable capacity to control herself. She is unpredictable, and that may not be something that she could help if she wanted to change. I’d protect my kids from her, but I’d also let them know that she can have trouble calming herself down, and it helps her to avoid anything to stir her up more when she’s already overwhelmed with negative feelings.

This is something that a four-year-old might easily have recently experienced both with other 4 year-olds and in his own emotions: that is, a 4 year-old might know first-hand what emotional “flooding” feels like. Explained that way, he might be able to connect his impulse issues with hers and self-coach both to give her room when she seems emotionally flooded, give his little friends room when they are flooding, and give himself room when his own emotional flooding makes him a social danger to himself or others. It is a social recognition skill well worth learning.

You are right. I had forgotten she said that earlier. In that case, I agree that my approach would not work.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

**My SIL has mental health issues in the sense that she has an incredibly mean streak in her. ** She feels slighted by people for minor things and often over-reacts by destroying her relationships with people. We put up with her b/c she’s family.

That being said, **I have a sensitive son who is 4 and likes to push the envelope and test people’s boundaries. My son doesn’t respect my SIL **b/c he’s very perceptive and knows that my SIL doesn’t really like him. My SIL rarely has anything nice to say about my son to friends and family. She says things like “he never listens”…etc. She’s nice to him, but underneath, she doesn’t like his personality very much.

So my husband let my son to my SIL house to play and he came back to our home crying and told my husband that my SIL (his aunt) told him that he’s a “mean little boy”. When I came home my son asked me, “Am I a mean little boy?” heartbreaking…

Here is what I’m not understanding from the OP, is your SIL really that bad? If she is I’m not sure why you or your husband would allow your son to play at her home unattended. What feels closer to the truth is You and your husband are aware that your son has behavioral problems and tends to be disrespectful and difficult. Despite these facts you expect someone to entertain and watch him but to not chastise his behavior. (I could be wrong but I’ve seen this a hundred times over with parents) That said I’m not saying that I agree with SIL choice of words but in this situation you have a couple options, if you think SIL has a mean streak and you don’t like how she interacts with your son; do not send him over there unless you or your husband are present. You may not agree and you may choose to speak to SIL about what she said but PLEASE own your role in this situation. You sent your kid with someone that you say has mental illness and has shown she does not deal well with people. On top of that you sent a child who is difficult and doesn’t respect her to her house… don’t do that again.

That’s what came to mind for me as well…we can’t treat children like adults. It’s not fair to them. They are to be instructed, loved, and cherished.
Allowing them all the “perks” of grown-ups (and I use the term perks tongue n cheek)
is to fail to give them the necessary age appropriate boundaries for successful social development and interaction.
IOW, stop fretting over this. She’s an adult that you don’t care for. He’s a very small child. that you love.
Work on the things you can mold/fix/shape.
It’s not up to you to work on her issues. You have to teach your son courtesy, boundaries, and respect.

I agree with this perspective.

 

[Serap]

That’s what came to mind for me as well…we can’t treat children like adults. It’s not fair to them. They are to be instructed, loved, and cherished.
Allowing them all the “perks” of grown-ups (and I use the term perks tongue n cheek)
is to fail to give them the necessary age appropriate boundaries for successful social development and interaction.
IOW, stop fretting over this. She’s an adult that you don’t care for. He’s a very small child. that you love.
Work on the things you can mold/fix/shape.
It’s not up to you to work on her issues. You have to teach your son courtesy, boundaries, and respect.

yes and thank you kindly.

he is known for being a good boy at Kindergarten as well. His teacher speaks highly of him and so does the daycare that cares for him after school

He has days/moments when he pushes the envelope, but he is constructively approached and guided at school and daycare. His teacher and ECE’s will tell me about his not so good days and I will talk to him about it when we get home.

It’s funny that the only adult that speaks badly of my son is my SIL.

My parents have said that my son has bad days where he is defiant and testing boundaries, but they have never run him down ever.

 

[Serap]

Here is what I’m not understanding from the OP, is your SIL really that bad? If she is I’m not sure why you or your husband would allow your son to play at her home unattended. What feels closer to the truth is You and your husband are aware that your son has behavioral problems and tends to be disrespectful and difficult. Despite these facts you expect someone to entertain and watch him but to not chastise his behavior. (I could be wrong but I’ve seen this a hundred times over with parents) That said I’m not saying that I agree with SIL choice of words but in this situation you have a couple options, if you think SIL has a mean streak and you don’t like how she interacts with your son; do not send him over there unless you or your husband are present. You may not agree and you may choose to speak to SIL about what she said but PLEASE own your role in this situation. You sent your kid with someone that you say has mental illness and has shown she does not deal well with people. On top of that you sent a child who is difficult and doesn’t respect her to her house… don’t do that again.

I agree with this perspective.

Problem is that we live in the same house, but different floors. I try to minimize the amt of time he spends there…trust me…I say no 90% of the time when he asks to go there.

We have never ever had SIL babysit my son. He goes down to visit for maybe an hour here and there on weekends only. It’s hard b/c their child comes up stairs almost every day.

It’s a difficult situation. One that I wish I was not in, but that’s a whole other story.

 

[robertmidwest]

give them the necessary age appropriate boundaries for successful social development and interaction.

Yes, an adult who is supervising childrendand sees what they believe is inappropriate child rearing shoudl talk to the “adult” parent of the child.

It is not age apppropriate for an adult to tell a 4 yo that they are mean.

 

[EasterJoy]

yes and thank you kindly.

he is known for being a good boy at Kindergarten as well. His teacher speaks highly of him and so does the daycare that cares for him after school

He has days/moments when he pushes the envelope, but he is constructively approached and guided at school and daycare. His teacher and ECE’s will tell me about his not so good days and I will talk to him about it when we get home.

It’s funny that the only adult that speaks badly of my son is my SIL.

My parents have said that my son has bad days where he is defiant and testing boundaries, but they have never run him down ever.

Your SIL is probably the only one who either fails to realize that a 4 year old cannot be held to the same standards of conduct as an adult or else who doesn’t get that name-calling is hurtful, counter-productive, and usually false. There are mean people in the world, people who are bedrock-to-the-bone misanthropes, people who give themselves free rein to mistreat others to whatever extent they can get by with and perhaps even enjoy doing so, but those people are fairly rare. A prudent person must force himself to realize that truly mean people are out there–these can be very dangerous people to those who give them more credit than they deserve–but must also remember that most nasty behavior will come from people who are not inherently nasty at heart.

If your SIL is one of those bedrock-to-the-bone misanthropes, BTW, severely limit how much your 4 year old has to be around her. Adults are also much better at rolling with the punches and protecting their own psyches from unfair assaults. Four year olds ought to be protected from that. Be honest with yourself about that. If her treatment of him is either to ignore him or verbally attack him, don’t expose him to that. When he has to be around her, make sure there is someone to be a buffer between them until he is much older.