My Sister is Mormon....

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mfbukowski said:
Limbo
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Never dogma
mfbukowski said:
transubstantiation
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Dogma
mfbukowski said:
immaculate conception
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Dogma
mfbukowski said:
the assumption
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Dogma
mfbukowski said:
Pope Joan
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Historical fiction. You should be embarrassed.
mfbukowski said:
burning heretics
kill muslims in the crusades
burn Joan of Arc
Shall I continue?
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ibkc said:
Shall you continue naming things that were never contradicted doctrine - and most are historical events have nothing to do with doctrine at all? Sure, go ahead. Knock yourself out!
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Of course none of this changes the Mormon Prophets teaching:
Mark of Cain
Blood Atonement
Adam was God

And then not!!
 
mfbukowski said:
Nope. Same thing. Stop telling me what I believe.

Nobody is telling you what you believe. I am sure that what you believe is valid for right now. Two weeks or two years from now, who knows? Guess it depends what the Old Men in SLC tell you to believe, or maybe there will be a little doctrinal revision. Who knows, maybe Obama may decide to re-visit polygamy.😃
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hosemonkey said:
Nobody is telling you what you believe. I am sure that what you believe is valid for right now. Two weeks or two years from now, who knows? Guess it depends what the Old Men in SLC tell you to believe, or maybe there will be a little doctrinal revision. Who knows, maybe Obama may decide to re-visit polygamy.😃
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mfbukowski said:
King Follett was never defined as doctrine. It has been a theory among some people of the Church for a long time, but there is not now, nor has there ever been, an official doctrine of the Church on what happened “before” God was God. No prophet has defined one, and no prophet has contradicted an earlier definition. And that is that.
Again, hammering away at this simply shows the depth of your understanding of the Mormon Church: a layer of drizzle on a busy highway. Stick to what you know, please
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When they take “If You Could Hie to Kolob” out of they hymnbook, I’ll start believing you:
If you could hie to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward with that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity,
Find out the generation where Gods began to be?
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Or see the grand beginning where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation where Gods and matter end?
Me thinks the Spirit whispers “No man has found pure space,
Nor seen the outside curtains where nothing has a place.”
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Or this quote from the Gospel Principles manual found at this link:

lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html
What happens when we have endured to the end in faithful discipleship to Christ? The Lord has said, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “If we will continue in God; that is, keep his commandments, worship him and live his truth; then the time will come when we shall be bathed in the fulness of truth, which shall grow brighter and brighter until the perfect day” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).
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The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel–you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).
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This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).
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Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to succeed even as he did.
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Imagine what joy each of us will have when we return to our Heavenly Father if we can say: “Father, I did what you wanted me to do. I have been faithful and have kept your commandments. I am happy to be home again.” Then we will hear him say, “Well done; . . . thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord” (Matthew 25:23).
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And do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet? It seems to me that he was the “prophet” that defined it for the LDS. I think if you asked President Monson about this you might get an official answer. Try writing him about it. And good luck getting an answer.

I struggled with this doctrine for years as a Latter-day Saint until it became clear to me that I could no longer avoid the obvious – the King Follet doctrine is the doctrine of the LDS Church. I couldn’t deny it without denying Mormonism.
 
BartBurk said:
When they take “If You Could Hie to Kolob” out of they hymnbook, I’ll start believing you:

Or this quote from the Gospel Principles manual found at this link:

lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html

And do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet? It seems to me that he was the “prophet” that defined it for the LDS. I think if you asked President Monson about this you might get an official answer. Try writing him about it. And good luck getting an answer.

I struggled with this doctrine for years as a Latter-day Saint until it became clear to me that I could no longer avoid the obvious – the King Follet doctrine is the doctrine of the LDS Church. I couldn’t deny it without denying Mormonism.
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The king follett discourse is not doctrine since it is not included in the canon. Now there may be members that follow it as such. But it is not official. However, leaders have used it because this is what is now known. But to be made doctrine it will have to be included in the canon of lds scripture. The king follett discourse actually makes a lot of sense. And on a thead about it on this forum, I made the statement that it was a great sermon because of its revolutionary nature. It revolutionized christianity by giving the christian a different understanding about the subject of the discourse. If JS was a fraud, he was a genius.

I also don’t think that we have the speech in its entirity. I believe that we have notes from individuals about what was said, but I don’t know if the mormons have a complete discourse written in JS’s hand.
 
NewSeeker said:
As The Prophet who spoke with God face to face, he doesn’t get to do both. Everything doctrinal that Joseph uttered must be true, or everything he says can be questioned (even what’s contained in the D&C).

NS
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If the book of mormon is true, then the lds church is true. If the book of mormon is false, the lds church is false, regardless of the good it has done in the world. It all comes down to the book of mormon and not to what JS has uttered.

In the end, he was just a human being who claimed to be a prophet. Every prophet in the old and new testaments were human beings and falliable as JS was too.
 
There sems to be an unnecessarily convoluted debate going on about Mormon beliefs including, for example, the King Follett Discourse and now the hymn “If You Could Hie to Kolob.”
  1. The KFD is, indeed, not part of the LDS Standard Works which Mormons are expected, but for the most part not required, to believe. For such a supposedly authoritarian church, the LDS has an amazing degree of institutional humility and confidence in the individual consciences of its members.
2.Many Mormons (how many? never heard of a poll), such as myself, believe every word of the KFD and consider it the Prophet’s culminating teaching.
  1. “If You Could Hie to Kolob” makes many different points and is a complex and enigmatic work. Apparently, the Church feels that the members can be trusted to deal with uncertainty and so includes this work in its hymnal. For myself, I accept its message.
  2. I certainly believe that, before God was a god, he was a man undergoing a mortal probation like ours, like us a spirit child of a god and granted a mortal body to undergo the mortal probation, and like us, capable of exhaltation. Other Mormon posters here may believe somwhat or largely differently. There is no Mormon catechism.
 
You have no conception of how great God is. And you scoff at the incredible gift he has given you to become like him. We are not servents, we are his children. How do you treat your children and what do you want for them? And we are just human. How much more does he want for us than we want for our own children! And you disrespect that? So very sad that you will never understand what gifts he has for you if you just accept them.
 
mfbukowski said:
So very sad that you will never understand what gifts he has for you if you just accept them.
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So very sad is the disappointment that you will experience when you find out after your death, that you have been the victim of a huge fraud.
 
dianaiad said:
However, symbols mean what the people who use them think they mean. The swastika is a classic case in point; until Hitler got hold of it, it was a symbol of life, peace and abundance. I have a quilt with that symbol all over it–that I do not dare use. My great grandmother would be aghast at the meaning it has aquired since her time!

Diana
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It still is a symbol of life, peace and well being in eastren faiths.
 
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