My Sister is Mormon....

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majick275 said:
that could never happen now that i have the fullness of the gospel. BTW i think i understand the LDs temple quite well as i was a veil worker before i left.
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You couldn’t have known it that well and leave. Maybe you should have been a suit.
 
mfbukowski said:
You couldn’t have known it that well and leave. Maybe you should have been a suit.
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that’s a bit arrogant. I know mormonism inside and out. I see it for what it is. I feel sorry for those who are still duped by it.
 
RebeccaJ said:
What planet do you live on? Of course the LDS Church is suing based on copyright infringement.
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Yes. For the Church Handbook of Instructions. But not for the Temple Ceremony Script. Indeed, the Church Handbook of Instructions is the only thing they have sued over in terms of copyright infringement, and they did that for the same reason any group would sue; to keep control of the ability to alter it as needed.
RebeccaJ said:
One has to wonder if they put a patent on the LDS Church temple ceremony. Just as they have sued to the have the Church Handbook of Instructions removed from the internet.

Also, you know very well that if an investigator who is being taught about mormonism asks about your temple ceremony, you are not going answer them…
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Depends on what they ask. If they want the script, or the ‘signs and symbols,’ you are quite right. I won’t. I brought up the sanctity of the confessional earlier…if I asked a priest to tell me all about it, he could tell me what the purpose is, and what ordinance is performed there, and what both he and the penitent gets out of it.

But that same priest will never tell you what was actually spoken of there. One who is honorable won’t speak of it even if he later leaves the priesthood or becomes a complete non-believer.

One can tell what the motive is for asking by the way the question is asked; if someone is honestly curious about what Temples are for, the ordinances performed and why they are performed, those questions will be answered. If they want the script and the ‘shivery details’ so that they can have a good laugh, I’ll refer them to the Congressional record, or tell them to take a hike to the internet.
RebeccaJ said:
I asked about it when I was still LDS and my bishop wouldn’t tell me anything. This was long before the internet was around, so no, there was no other resource for me to go to.
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There was still the congressional record, which you could find in any library. What exactly did you ask, anyway? When I was 16, probably a whole lot earlier than you were sixteen, my entire family went to Temple preparation classes. My parents, after 18 years of marriage and four kids, were finally ready to go and get ‘sealed.’ It was a wonderful experience.

Everything was explained to me; what I was going for, what would happen. I wasn’t prepared for the sheer richness of the symbolism used, since in daily life and even in Sunday meetings we are a fairly prosaic people, but there wasn’t anything taught in the Temple that I didn’t already know about.

I’ve only attended one High Mass–associated with a wedding. I wasn’t prepared for the amount of ritual and symbolism THERE, either. However, in the case of the High Mass, I also didn’t have a clue what any of that symbolism meant. Still don’t. I asked the very devout Catholic next to me what this was about, or that–and she didn’t know either.

So tell me the difference here: attending a ceremony replete with symbols that are explained to you, and that you know the meaning of going in–but that you are asked not to talk about outside the building walls–or attending a more public ceremony equally rich with symbols, the nature of which are not known even to the believers?

From the outside both look secretive–when in reality neither are.
RebeccaJ said:
The LDS Church is not open about all of its beliefs. The internet pushes at this secrecy, which the LDS Church is NOT open to.
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You keep saying that, and you are wrong. You ask me what planet I’m from because the church sued to get the Church Handbook of Instructions removed from the Internet–when I claimed that the church did not sue for copyright infringement for the TEMPLE CEREMONY SCRIPT.

The fact is, the church has not, and probably will not, EVER sue for copyright infringement with the Temple Ceremony script. We are not Scientologists.

the church DID sue over the Church Handbook of Instructions. Why?

Because it is a working operations handbook for an organization, and like any other organization, the church needs to be in control of the copyright. If it allows someone else to publish it, for any reason, it loses that control–and the ability to freely update and change it.

The church has allowed fair use of that book for many, many years, with ‘fair use’ being rather broadly interpreted; people have posted entire chapters without being clobbered by the lawyers.

But the lawsuit you are referring to was against a group that published the whole thing, without commentary. The most forgiving judge on the planet can’t call THAT ‘fair use.’

True, a judge DID call the publication of an entire book ‘fair use’ against the Scientologists once, but the differences between that case and the Handbook are pretty telling: first, the Scientologists likened their book to scripture–the Church Hand book is an operations manual just like any other used by any other group, corporation or church. Second, the Scientologists refused to provide even the court with an original copy to compare the pirated one with to determine ‘fair use.’

The CoJCoLDS not only provided such a copy, it provided all the versions of it from the first edition, so that the court could see that it is updated regularly.

So now I get to ask you; what planet are you on, that you think it is acceptable to break all the laws of confidentiality and copyright law simply because YOU don’t like the people who are having their copyrights stolen?

You wanna find out what the church handbook has to say about something? Fine–no problem. There is no law against, and no lack of, sites that examine the thing complete with commentary, using proper fair use quotes, so that the church can keep the copyright.
 
majick275 said:
that could never happen now that i have the fullness of the gospel. BTW i think i understand the LDs temple quite well as i was a veil worker before i left.

of course hall and pike claim that. history shows otherwise. the masons are a relatively modern invention that tries to claim a link to the knights templar. this of course is not only unsupported by facts but presents them with the contradiction of then being catholic. the stories of the templars have grown over the years into “national treasure” type tales with secret knowledge and “mysteries” of solomon. some kabbalists also like to claim mystical rites in solomons temple.

the BIBLE however shows that the temple wasn’t secret at all. we can read all about the various rituals performed there in detail. it was nothing like the mormon ceremony.
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Interesting. Would you care to share with us the exact ceremonies, complete with the scripts, including what was done (and SAID) by the high priest in the Holy of Holy’s?"
 
rmcmullan said:
Really? I’ve never met one. And ***I’m ***not one.
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I’ve never met one either.

In fact, I’ve never met a single Mormon convert who had a bad word to say about their former faith. They might have some wry comments about their own experiences within it, but, as far as the belief system itself is concerned?

No.
 
dianaiad said:
Really?

Would you care to tell me what danger that gentleman was in, that his actions could have been called ‘brave?’
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Anyone who stands before a group of strangers to renounce what he had been told his entire life was the way to eternal salvation…to discuss that which his entire family still believes and share why it is not the way…to me, is brave. He cared more about educating, and paving the way for others, rather than the judgments of his own family. That is difficult, and a brave thing to do.
 
dianaballein said:
Anyone who stands before a group of strangers to renounce what he had been told his entire life was the way to eternal salvation…to discuss that which his entire family still believes and share why it is not the way…to me, is brave. He cared more about educating, and paving the way for others, rather than the judgments of his own family. That is difficult, and a brave thing to do.
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We will have to disagree on that.

Courage would be for him to have turned to what he considered to be truth in spite of the damage it would cause his relationship with his family, while keeping the promises he made.

There is a word for someone who takes a swipe at his former beliefs and his family, betraying them, in some attempt to make himself look better to the new group. It’s not 'brave."

Which is why, by the way, LDS converts are actively discouraged from disparaging their former belief system, and are encouraged to mend rifts with their families. It has been my experience, though, that converts who lose contact with their families have been kicked out by them, and people who leave Mormonism for something else are the ones who do the kicking.

(shrug)

I’ve never been able to figure that out. I know that, should one of my children leave the church and go to another one, it would break my heart–but it wouldn’t change my love for them.
 
dianaiad said:
Depends on what they ask. If they want the script, or the ‘signs and symbols,’ you are quite right. I won’t. I brought up the sanctity of the confessional earlier…if I asked a priest to tell me all about it, he could tell me what the purpose is, and what ordinance is performed there, and what both he and the penitent gets out of it.

But that same priest will never tell you what was actually spoken of there. One who is honorable won’t speak of it even if he later leaves the priesthood or becomes a complete non-believer.
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I think any Catholic, even a Priest, would tell you the ‘script’ of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The script has lots of blanks in it which are filled in as a personal conversation between the penitent and the Priest. There are no secret ‘signs, symbols, or scripts’. I’ve never been to a temple ceremony, so I don’t know if you are submitting a false analogy or not. Maybe a Catholic convert from Mormonism can tell us.
 
dianaiad said:
I’ve only attended one High Mass–associated with a wedding. I wasn’t prepared for the amount of ritual and symbolism THERE, either. However, in the case of the High Mass, I also didn’t have a clue what any of that symbolism meant. Still don’t. I asked the very devout Catholic next to me what this was about, or that–and she didn’t know either.
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If someone started talking to me during Mass, I would plead ignorance to get them to stop talking. The symbols and rituals are the same at all Masses, they do not change for a ‘High’ Mass.
 
Stephen168 said:
I think any Catholic, even a Priest, would tell you the ‘script’ of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The script has lots of blanks in it which are filled in as a personal conversation between the penitent and the Priest. There are no secret ‘signs, symbols, or scripts’. I’ve never been to a temple ceremony, so I don’t know if you are submitting a false analogy or not. Maybe a Catholic convert from Mormonism can tell us.
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It is not as an exact analogy, of course,as you would like it to be. I’ve never been in a Catholic confessional, obviously.

Oh. What would you think of a Catholic priest turned Mormon who told you exactly what the blanks between the ‘scripted’ parts were?

By the way, I know one of those; a Catholic priest turned Mormon. (Not immediately…he had left the priesthood to marry) One of the reasons, he told me, that he became interested in the church was that it was the only religion out there that honored his commitment and his promises. Everybody else asked him to divulge what went on in the confessional, with examples. In fact, he was told before he was baptized (and he had an interview with a General Authority before he was baptized so that this could be made clear to him) that if he ever betrayed the sanctity of the Catholic confessional while he was a member of the CoJCoLDS, he would be excommunicated quicker than he could finish talking. .

Look. It’s SACRED to us, not secret. If it were supposed to be secret, we would not have put the thing in the Congressional record. We WOULD be suing over it’s proliferation on the internet and in publications. It has been pointed out that we sued over something else, so yeah, we do sue over stuff–but not that.

Because it’s sacred, not secret.

I will not discuss it with you, because I promised. If you didn’t promise, then there is nothing stopping you from going to take a peek. Go. scratch your curiosity.

Just don’t expect me to break MY promises to entertain you.

Funny, I thought that of all the religious groups in the world, Catholics would understand this concept.
 
Stephen168 said:
If someone started talking to me during Mass, I would plead ignorance to get them to stop talking. The symbols and rituals are the same at all Masses, they do not change for a ‘High’ Mass.
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Good grief, give me a break. I didn’t ask DURING the Mass!!!

During it, I simply enjoyed. It was beautiful. Didn’t understand all of it, but I enjoyed it.
 
dianaiad said:
Oh. What would you think of a Catholic priest turned Mormon who told you exactly what the blanks between the ‘scripted’ parts were?
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The reason they are blank is because no one knows what will be said until it is said. And there is a very good chance the Priest doesn’t know who is saying it. So a Priest who becomes Mormon is not able to tell exactly what the blanks are in the ‘script.’ Which is also why I believe the following is a fanciful tale:
dianaiad said:
By the way, I know one of those; a Catholic priest turned Mormon. (Not immediately…he had left the priesthood to marry) One of the reasons, he told me, that he became interested in the church was that it was the only religion out there that honored his commitment and his promises. Everybody else asked him to divulge what went on in the confessional, with examples.
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Stephen168 said:
The reason they are blank is because no one knows what will be said until it is said. And there is a very good chance the Priest doesn’t know who is saying it. So a Priest who becomes Mormon is not able to tell exactly what the blanks are in the ‘script.’ Which is also why I believe the following is a fanciful tale:
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You are calling me a liar.

Do you want to do that?
 
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