My sister never loved her husband of nearly 30 years?

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I have a friend, East Indian, whose marriage was arranged for her by her parents. She said she accepted this arrangement, agreeing her husband was probably the best partner she herself could have chosen. They grew to love one another, but I don’t know if they were ever “in love”, that breathy something you feel when you meet someone and you just “know”, this is the one. Although this is only one person I know this has happened to, I believe sometimes it is better to let the head lead the heart. Find someone of the same background, same values and same religion and the chances are the marriage will be a success. But marriage does require a bit of romance now and then.
 
Remember the story about my sister? She is in her early 50’s now…she divorced her husband a few years ago, after being married nearly 30 years to him. She started dating a married man, while she was going through her divorce…he left his wife, bla bla…and she saw the light with how immoral that whole thing was, and left him. She and I talked last night, and she said that she ‘can’t shake the feeling she had with him.’ (the married man she was dating who ended up leaving his wife)

I said…‘that was not true love, that was an affair.’ She agreed. And I said that because once they moved in together, and the illusion and mystery was gone–he treated her terribly. That’s not true love that they shared–(maybe she felt that way) but he didn’t.

But, she then told me a shocker…that she never loved her (ex) husband. I said…never? Not even in the beginning? She said no. Not even on our wedding day. She went on to say that she has reflected on this quite a bit, since I mentioned to her about going through the annulment process, as a healing process. She said that she has come to realize that she only married him to get out of ‘the house.’ (my dad was somewhat controlling back then, I was too little to remember how he treated her–she is 13 yrs my senior)

I said…‘not even on your wedding day.’ She replied…‘I remember that day like it was yesterday, and knew that I was making a mistake.’ WHAT?:eek:

I told her that this would be grounds for an annulment. She said she is ‘afraid’ that her ex will be enraged that she is calling a marriage of nearly 30 years (in which he truly loved her) invalid.

I don’t know what to make of this. On a self-centered note, her ex was very mean to me growing up, and to think that I had to go through his verbal abuse, and she didn’t even love the guy? It was like a punch to my stomach last night, hearing that.😦 (FYI, my sister and ex BIL became my legal guardians after my parents passed when I was 9/10 yrs old)

But back to her–what would your advice be to her, if she were your sister?
Romantic relationships are complicated, personal and ‘murky’.
I try to stay out of other people’s business. It’s hard though. I have a son whom I want to see marry the right person. I have a brother whom I think is married to the Devil Incarnate.
 
Romantic relationships are complicated, personal and ‘murky’.
I try to stay out of other people’s business. It’s hard though. I have a son whom I want to see marry the right person. I have a brother whom I think is married to the Devil Incarnate.
I agree–but she asks for my advice from time to time. My heart breaks in wondering if they could/should have saved their marriage. Nothing God could not have resolved. That’s the thing–now that my sister has come back to her faith, I think she is able to reflect more on what she could have done better.
 
I have a friend, East Indian, whose marriage was arranged for her by her parents. She said she accepted this arrangement, agreeing her husband was probably the best partner she herself could have chosen. They grew to love one another, but I don’t know if they were ever “in love”, that breathy something you feel when you meet someone and you just “know”, this is the one. Although this is only one person I know this has happened to, I believe sometimes it is better to let the head lead the heart. Find someone of the same background, same values and same religion and the chances are the marriage will be a success. But marriage does require a bit of romance now and then.
Thanks for your reply–many aunts and uncles who are not deceased, from my dad’s side, lived through arranged marriages…I don’t know how happy they were, it was just the norm, and they didn’t question it. I wonder if feeling ‘breathy’ over someone, is a sign to not marry them…maybe that is more superficial than anything? I’m starting to wonder!:o
 
Thanks for your reply–many aunts and uncles who are not deceased, from my dad’s side, lived through arranged marriages…I don’t know how happy they were, it was just the norm, and they didn’t question it. I wonder if feeling ‘breathy’ over someone, is a sign to not marry them…maybe that is more superficial than anything? I’m starting to wonder!:o
A friend of mine said her therapist told her one time, that we get ourselves into trouble, for instance, when we walk into a crowded room, say at a party and immediatley “spy” someone we don’t know and just have to meet s/him. She said it is a though we who get involved with people who aren’t the best for us, each have an atenna attached to our belly buttons insuring we are going to find that one and only inappropriate person and those atenna strike a spark between us.:eek: Sometimes it’s best to seek out that lone person who seems least likely to be the one we are looking for.😉
 
Hi bilop, I have read some of your posts before and I think that your prayer will be really powerful with God. Thank you so much for the prayer and your kind words!
You embarass me. Thank you so much.

God Bless
 
A friend of mine said her therapist told her one time, that we get ourselves into trouble, for instance, when we walk into a crowded room, say at a party and immediatley “spy” someone we don’t know and just have to meet s/him. She said it is a though we who get involved with people who aren’t the best for us, each have an atenna attached to our belly buttons insuring we are going to find that one and only inappropriate person and those atenna strike a spark between us.:eek: Sometimes it’s best to seek out that lone person who seems least likely to be the one we are looking for.😉
A friend of mine, divorced, says he wishes he had gotten joint counselling with his first wife before they divorced. He said that he learned during his second marriage that the problem wasn’t his first wife. It was that he didn’t realize what he needed to put into marriage as his part! He said that if he’d admitted that at the time, he might have had just one happy family, instead of having to support and parent in two separate ones. (This was not a Catholic or even a religious man.)

The OP might suggest to her sister-in-law that if she and her first husband don’t fully look into what went wrong, the chances are high that she will unknowingly get herself married to another incarnation of the same wrong guy, or treat a second right guy in the same wrong way that won’t work for anybody.

Competent and honest marriage counselling will both uncover those things about an invalid marriage that doomed it (making it much less likely that a second marriage will be unsuccessfully attempted, due to the same defect in will and/or aptitudes) and uncover what it is about a valid marriage that needs to be addressed for it to lead to a peaceful home in which both parties mutually advance in holiness and service to God.

Whether the couple is separated or not, whether joint counselling is possible or not, an evaluation of what went wrong in a marriage should always precede any thought of divorce–legal protection from abuse or predation which is likely to be perpetrated by one’s partner being a separate case–let alone looking for a decree of nullity and the possiblity of remarriage…

IMHO. :rolleyes:
 
Thanks for your reply–many aunts and uncles who are not deceased, from my dad’s side, lived through arranged marriages…I don’t know how happy they were, it was just the norm, and they didn’t question it. I wonder if feeling ‘breathy’ over someone, is a sign to not marry them…maybe that is more superficial than anything? I’m starting to wonder!:o
A friend of mine, divorced, says he wishes he had gotten joint counselling with his first wife before they divorced. He said that he learned during his second marriage that the problem wasn’t his first wife. It was that he didn’t realize what he needed to put into marriage as his part! He said that if he’d admitted that at the time, he might have had just one happy family, instead of having to support and parent in two separate ones. (This was not a Catholic or even a religious man.)

The OP might suggest to her sister-in-law that if she and her first husband don’t fully look into what went wrong, the chances are high that she will unknowingly get herself married to another incarnation of the same wrong guy, or treat a second right guy in the same wrong way that won’t work for anybody.

Competent and honest marriage counselling will both uncover those things about an invalid marriage that doomed it (making it much less likely that a second marriage will be unsuccessfully attempted, due to the same defect in will and/or aptitudes) and uncover what it is about a valid marriage that needs to be addressed for it to lead to a peaceful home in which both parties mutually advance in holiness and service to God.

Whether the couple is separated or not, whether joint counselling is possible or not, an evaluation of what went wrong in a marriage should always precede any thought of divorce–legal protection from abuse or predation which is likely to be perpetrated by one’s partner being a separate case–let alone looking for a decree of nullity and the possiblity of remarriage…

IMHO. :rolleyes:
Rational, outside advice should always be welcome.👍
 
Having ‘recently been through all this from the other side’ I would like to share some things. I did not read all of the responses so forgive me if I duplicate some.

In my case, my X cheated with a married man, who has since divorced his wife too, as mind did me. Though the story is of course long I’ll stick to the question I perceive at hand. Essentially, my X relates some examples of why she really didn’t ever love me, but felt compelled to marry me - JUST TO HAVE CHILDREN - since she ‘fooled around with me’ prior to marriage and thought she could never approach another man as a virgin. Yes, that begs many questions and responses but again, sticking to the point…

She has already reached an affirmative in the first instance - meaning there’s an automatic appeal of the decision, but they will grant her request - in fact, I maintain they’ll almost always grant the request of the petitioner. As the tribunal once put it to me, they only accept cases to review that have merit - meaning they’ve already made the decision before they even formally review the case - so why go through the process - a good question.

As JPII indicated I believe, and a good Catholic attorney I know once summarized, the annulment process has become something the church did not intend, and is about as discriminatory as Texas divorce law - which means it’s not - they go through the steps, but if you have any logic meeting one of their tests in anyway, they’re going to give it to you (opinion based on observable facts).

The process: The petitioner (your sister in this case), gets the form usually from the parish priest - who is supposed to not be an advocate but a facilitator. She fills it out and sends the original petition along with the fee.

The original petition is not hugely detailed, but asks her to answer a few questions in her own words, AND to name any witnesses she will ask to testify. In her case the best would be those that knew the couple prior to marriage since her claim is she really didn’t love me when she married me and did so for an improper reason (felt forced to marry me).

The tribunal then sends a letter to the respondant, me, and says essentially, 'hey, she wants an annulment, here’s the witnesses she’s named - you don’t have to respond, but if you want to (not please do, more of a ‘we’ll let you if you want’), here’s a form and some questions to answer and you can name witnesses too. It does not explain her rational for wanting the annulment (properly a decree of nullity). See where the bent is already aimed at supporting the petitioner?

In my case, I believe the annulment is wrong and as I got into it that not all of the testimony is truthful, so I am on a path that maybe the average respondant doesn’t see - disagreeing with the action and actively arguing against an affirmative decision. In it’s first decision, the Tribunal says it trusts all of the testimony (even though we strongly disagree on many of the facts - figure this one out?) and that she does meet one of the tests (had the wrong reason for wanting to get married) so they voted yes to give her the decree.

So, the letter also says all responses are kept confidential, and all parties and their witnesses send responses directly to the tribunal, which I did.

However, at some point, the respondent (and I assume the petitioner) gets a letter that says, okay, the time for intial responses is over, IF you’d like to see what has been submitted - let us know. So I ask for this and they ship all of the responses, hers, mine and all witnesses in a packet to our parish priest. Both my X and I are allowed a viewing where we can make ‘a few limited notes at best’ and then we have an opportunity to respond to what’s been written. Also, unknown to me until much later, one of them does a phone interview with the X about some parts, never informing me or allowing me the same (name removed by moderator)ut.

This is the first time I know what her premise is, and I cannot have a copy or make detailed notes in order to respond appropriately. I’m also asking questions during my responses to which the Tribunal never answers any of them. So I send back a second response commenting on both the truth and the falshoods presented. Interestingly, none of the X’s witnesses relate ever seeing anything to support her claims, but say at best, yes, lately there’s been times when she’s said she’s not been happy.

Now it’s been about 18 months since the X started the process and I get a letter saying, here’s our decision and why which I’ve related above. It also says this goes for an auto appeal to a higher court and if you want to add anything you can. Also, if you want, you can request a formal appeal - I don’t understand the difference as they don’t explain it.

Well, I’ve already written back a response to their decision (submission number 3) which serves really as the response they now say I can make. I get a phone call from the local diocese which was informative. The lady is on the Tribunal, and is very nice - she now explains with my formal appeal the whole record gets sent for review. In the case of the auto appeal, just the judges written summary goes for review - kind of a step to make sure that his logic holds, not that he interpreted the testimony correctly.

The lady at the local Tribunal says I’ve raised good points about the interpretation of the testimony used to justify the decision that’s made - maybe they (the regional Tribunal) might over rule the local decision. I don’t say this, but I know better - this kind of thing never happens - though it’s pretty unusual for someone to argue the point - most people just want out of the ‘whole mess’ and to get on with their lives. The lady says it might be six more months bringing the total time to about 2 years for the process.

Once the appeal process is completed, there’s no more testimony or review performed - we are done. For me, this was a question of truth, and obligation received from praying about this. I believe my X to be a good person, but one of satan’s victories, as we all are when he convinces good people to rationalize, or justify improper action and rely on the other good things they do as proof they are really ‘all good’. Committed criminals are easy - but I think satan throws a party each time he gets someone who believes and wants to walk with God to be duped into doing something horribly wrong and justifying it as okay to themselves. Now he’s created a barrier between them and God’s mercy that they do not see - what a dangerous circumstance, and why we need each other and the good works in our churches to help combat this.

If I would not have been against the proceedings, it can happen in as fast as a year.

I hope this real life example helps answer the questions that have appeared in this thread and thank you for letting me share!
 
It’s also whether she came to the marriage freely. If she felt obliged to marry to escape her father’s house then she might be deemed to not have come to the marriage freely.
Hello. I would like to comment on this b/c I am currently in the annulment process myself. This is pretty much the reason that I married my first husband. I was immature, felt that he was rescuing me from a bad situation with my parents, and I had romanticized views on marriage and felt I needed a man to take care of me. 10 yrs later, I am much smarter now, live independently, and am way more mature than I was in my early twenties. We also disagreed on children at the time and I married him thinking he’d been baptized but he wasn’t. Anyway, the grounds for annulment are being based on my not having the full capability of making the decision to marry at that time.
 
Remember the story about my sister? She is in her early 50’s now…she divorced her husband a few years ago, after being married nearly 30 years to him. She started dating a married man, while she was going through her divorce…he left his wife, bla bla…and she saw the light with how immoral that whole thing was, and left him. She and I talked last night, and she said that she ‘can’t shake the feeling she had with him.’ (the married man she was dating who ended up leaving his wife)

I said…‘that was not true love, that was an affair.’ She agreed. And I said that because once they moved in together, and the illusion and mystery was gone–he treated her terribly. That’s not true love that they shared–(maybe she felt that way) but he didn’t.

But, she then told me a shocker…that she never loved her (ex) husband. I said…never? Not even in the beginning? She said no. Not even on our wedding day. She went on to say that she has reflected on this quite a bit, since I mentioned to her about going through the annulment process, as a healing process. She said that she has come to realize that she only married him to get out of ‘the house.’ (my dad was somewhat controlling back then, I was too little to remember how he treated her–she is 13 yrs my senior)

I said…‘not even on your wedding day.’ She replied…‘I remember that day like it was yesterday, and knew that I was making a mistake.’ WHAT?:eek:

I told her that this would be grounds for an annulment. She said she is ‘afraid’ that her ex will be enraged that she is calling a marriage of nearly 30 years (in which he truly loved her) invalid.

I don’t know what to make of this. On a self-centered note, her ex was very mean to me growing up, and to think that I had to go through his verbal abuse, and she didn’t even love the guy? It was like a punch to my stomach last night, hearing that.😦 (FYI, my sister and ex BIL became my legal guardians after my parents passed when I was 9/10 yrs old)

But back to her–what would your advice be to her, if she were your sister?
Here is how it works. Yes, her ex will be contacted via US mail. He can choose to respond or not. What I was told is that it works in her favor if he responds negatively. It can take longer if he doesn’t respond b/c the Tribunal waits for such a period of time for him (the responder) to respond.

I’m sorry that she entered marriage not desiring to really want to marry him. I believe that you should want to marry someone and be by their side for the rest of your lives. It seems she felt some pressure and didn’t enter into it in the right mindset. There are normal doubts, then there are doubts that can and usually end up in divorce.

My prayers are with both of them and you.
 
I’ve only been married for two years. I had reservations before marrying and have regretted marrying my husband. He’s a decent man, yet the regrets are there almost daily. I have been praying so much for discernment about doing the right thing. I left a good job to marry and we are in a financial mess, so leaving at this point is not feasible until things improve financially. I have to ask myself, could I stay for the sake of the children or for the sake of making a promise even though I am so unsure about this? So, it is possible that your sister felt stuck like I do and time just went on. I want to be honest with the person I married to say I think we made a mistake, so I pray that in time I can do that. I can’t imagine God wanting to me to remain in this “marriage” when I had so many doubts and don’t feel like this is “real”. God insists on sincerity of heart. I pray daily for forgiveness from God because I feel so bad for ever getting into this. One priest told me that I probably have valid reasons for an annulment. Another thought I just had to hang in there.
 
I’ve only been married for two years. I had reservations before marrying and have regretted marrying my husband. He’s a decent man, yet the regrets are there almost daily. I have been praying so much for discernment about doing the right thing. I left a good job to marry and we are in a financial mess, so leaving at this point is not feasible until things improve financially. I have to ask myself, could I stay for the sake of the children or for the sake of making a promise even though I am so unsure about this? So, it is possible that your sister felt stuck like I do and time just went on. I want to be honest with the person I married to say I think we made a mistake, so I pray that in time I can do that. I can’t imagine God wanting to me to remain in this “marriage” when I had so many doubts and don’t feel like this is “real”. God insists on sincerity of heart. I pray daily for forgiveness from God because I feel so bad for ever getting into this. One priest told me that I probably have valid reasons for an annulment. Another thought I just had to hang in there.
I know you are in financial straits, but I hope you will explain your position to your pastor and ask him if there is someone holy, wise, and trustworthy that you can talk this over with at length. You need help, and soon.

Relatively few of us go through married life without a single period of self-doubt, without some kind of “what if?”, but what you are describing goes beyond that, I fear. If your marriage is valid, which you should assume it is, for the time being, you are poisoning your heart against it. This is very serious!! Maybe it is not valid, though. In that case, you still need to find someone to talk to, not just to ease your own suffering, but to minimize further suffering for the poor man with whom you attempted marriage. Heaven forbid that he get that bombshell dropped on him in 30 years! You need wise guidance, and soon. This is not a “do it yourself” project.

Even if you were to obtain a decree of nullity, if you don’t figure out all the reasons you are in this position the chances of repeating the same mistake under slightly different circumstances, putting another prospective groom through the same sort of terrible suffering, are far too high.
 
In my case, my X cheated with a married man, who has since divorced his wife too, as mind did me.
there is an old phrase in civil law - “Hard cases make bad law”. My following comments are not meant to criticise you, but I hope to make comments that others, and hopefully you may find helpful. Note also, I am divorced, and the initial circumstances parallel yours; I am not unsympathetic.

The fact that your ex cheated cuts about as deep as any betrayal of marriage can, and that is bound to color your perception of many things. It is also irrelevant to the issue of a decree of nullity - was there, at the day of the wedding, an impediment to free consent, an essential part of the marriage?
Essentially, my X relates some examples of why she really didn’t ever love me, but felt compelled to marry me - JUST TO HAVE CHILDREN - since she ‘fooled around with me’ prior to marriage and thought she could never approach another man as a virgin.
Without a full factual listing of what all she said, “essentially” simply gets down to your version of what she gave the tribunal, and you have already established that you are in significant (and completely realistic) pain from the divorce. In short, we do not have suffiicent information to determine that she has not established valid evidence of an impediment to full consent.
  • in fact, I maintain they’ll almost always grant the request of the petitioner. As the tribunal once put it to me, they only accept cases to review that have merit - meaning they’ve already made the decision before they even formally review the case - so why go through the process - a good question.
Recent statistics indicate that about 8% marriages that end in divorce are also denied a decree of nullity; about 7% receive one. Part of the process of obtaining a decree is the screening that cases go through before being submitted, and cases without grounds are eliminated there. It might make everyone “feel” good if those cases were also submitted so they could officially be denied; but it would result in a process that is already slow enough becoming even more bogged down. So yes, because of the vetting process, most cases submitted will be granted a decree; that does not make the process of the tribunal a simple rubber stamp.
As JPII indicated I believe, and a good Catholic attorney I know once summarized, the annulment process has become something the church did not intend, and is about as discriminatory as Texas divorce law - which means it’s not - they go through the steps, but if you have any logic meeting one of their tests in anyway, they’re going to give it to you (opinion based on observable facts).
Given the fact that about 50,000 to 60,000 cases are granted a year, and statistics would indicate some 57,000 to 68,000 are denied, mostly in the vetting process, and there are some 8,000,000 divorced Catholics, Rome may not be exactly on point on the issue.
The process: The petitioner (your sister in this case), gets the form usually from the parish priest - who is supposed to not be an advocate but a facilitator. She fills it out and sends the original petition along with the fee.
It is my understanding that the priest or canon lawyer who assists is more than a facilitator; they are the advocate. The advocate presents the case; the defender of the bond opposes it.
The tribunal then sends a letter to the respondant, me, and says essentially, 'hey, she wants an annulment, here’s the witnesses she’s named - you don’t have to respond, but if you want to (not please do, more of a ‘we’ll let you if you want’), here’s a form and some questions to answer and you can name witnesses too. It does not explain her rational for wanting the annulment (properly a decree of nullity). See where the bent is already aimed at supporting the petitioner?
The issue is not “he said she said” nor is it a contest between who is right and who is wrong, or who caused the divorce or who filed. It is about whether or not, at the day of the marriage, an impediment existed which prevented the sacrament from occuring. If one of the parties is not capable of giving consent, it isn’t going to be an arguement. It is going to be an issue of establishment of that fact.
In my case, I believe the annulment is wrong and as I got into it that not all of the testimony is truthful, so I am on a path that maybe the average respondant doesn’t see - disagreeing with the action and actively arguing against an affirmative decision. In it’s first decision, the Tribunal says it trusts all of the testimony (even though we strongly disagree on many of the facts - figure this one out?) and that she does meet one of the tests (had the wrong reason for wanting to get married) so they voted yes to give her the decree.
Again, we do not have facts established, and this forum is not the place to do so anyway. But it may be more of an issue of you not understanding why the Church says certain things are an impediment to full consent, or not believing that the facts establish that.
So I send back a second response commenting on both the truth and the falshoods presented. Interestingly, none of the X’s witnesses relate ever seeing anything to support her claims, but say at best, yes, lately there’s been times when she’s said she’s not been happy.
It sounds, at this point as if you are representing yourself. Having seen lawyers not understand a point of law, I can understand why you may not understand a point of canon law. I don’t know if she presented falsehoods; but more importantly, even assuming that she did, neither of us now can say whether they (the falsehoods) had anything to do with the decision. People often focus on what they perceive to be a fact (or a mis-statement of it or lie about it) and the fact is completely irrelevant to the decision.
Also, if you want, you can request a formal appeal - I don’t understand the difference as they don’t explain it.
Then you need someone who understands canon law to be assisting you, instead of representing yourself.
The lady at the local Tribunal says I’ve raised good points about the interpretation of the testimony used to justify the decision that’s made - maybe they (the regional Tribunal) might over rule the local decision. I don’t say this, but I know better - this kind of thing never happens
Do you have anything other than your own feelings and some hearsay to back this up? Actually, cases do come up with an opposite decision from the first tribunal’s findings. If you did have grounds to contest the finding, were they properly presented at the appropriate time, and in a fashion that addressed a salient point? Or did the failure to engage a canon lawyer “lose” the case?

Many people have a difficulty - some to an extreme, of not understanding how their marriage could not have been a real sacrament - they were there; their spouse was there, the priest was there, everyone said “I do”; there was no “shotgun” or impediment of close relationship or impotence or any of the more “standard” impediments, and many people just can’t understand the issue of consent. “They said ‘I do’ so that should be the end of it” is the thinking. Having been there myself, I understand that difficulty.

But that doesn’t mean that the issue of lack of consent is phony, or a flim-flam excuse for a decision.
 
I can’t thank you all enough for your advice, and thoughts about this with my sister. I talked with her tonight…she said that she has a lot of guilty feelings over leaving her husband. She is dating again, though, she said. :o I don’t want to spend all of the time I have with her discussing annulments, and her marriage–but I try to squeeze it in when I can. 🙂 The beauty of when we get out of God’s way and let Him work through us, is I might never have said anything…and just kept quiet, about all of this, but with God working through me–I am bolder in bringing things up–I think she is becoming more and more open to the idea of an annulment. I somewhat wish she would go back with her ‘ex.’ It seems like it could work…they have both grown from being apart now for the past few years–maybe their marriage would be even better.🤷

That will be my next call to her…but, how can one approach this, without sounding preachy or like I’m trying to match make her back with her ex husband?

DaveScott–I read your story, and it is really interesting. I would like to ask you more questions, when I’m less sleepy. lol

One thing popped out at me though…you say that your friend (lawyer?) told you that the Church never intended annulments? Do you mean in general, or to be like they have become? I wasn’t clear on that…whenever you get a sec…could you clarify? Thanks.

God bless everyone…
 
One thing popped out at me though…you say that your friend (lawyer?) told you that the Church never intended annulments? Do you mean in general, or to be like they have become? I wasn’t clear on that…whenever you get a sec…could you clarify? Thanks.

God bless everyone…
I may be stepping in front of Dave. There has been a goodly bit of criticism of the tribunal process, and some of it not without merit. There have been accusations that the tribunal process is nothing more than a pastoral rubber stamp to the situation people get themselves into - whether that is a divorce, a divorce and a remarriage, or a non-married person starting a relationship with someone who is divorced. However, one has to be careful of what one reads and accepts whole-heartedly without hearing what the other side of the story might be. There is a tendency to take a side and argue that side as if the other side had no merit; there are those who simply ignore facts in the discussion, and there are those who, because of deep and grevious wounds, take up a banner under what are really false pretenses. And then there are those who argue from a bad case to the almost immediate presumption that if there is one rotten apple, not only is the barrel rotten, but so are those on the tree.

John Paul 2 had some pointed comments to make about the process, and his perception that the process in some places and in some circumstances was not making appropriate decisions. Many have taken a rather simplistic and knee jerk response to paint all tribunals and all decisions with the same brush.

One also needs to keep in perspective the fact that Rome - the pope, the head of a dicastery, a cardinal, or a whole bunch of the above - serve the universal Church (which, by the way, is not the “Roman” Catholic church, as the Roman rite is one of many, although the largest). As such, they may have more of an eagle’s view - they see a lot of acerage, but they do not particularly see all the bushes or the mice on it.

Rome has also said that the tribunal process needs to get in gear and speed up, as justice is not being done by lengthy process and people have a right to a decision. While that may not be directed specifically to the US, it needs to be taken into account when one starts spouting statistics, such as the fact that the US leads the world by far in the raw numbers as well as the percentage of cases granted.

In some jursdictions which don’t even have staffing for a tribunal, no computers, no faxes, and nowhere near the organization that the US has, it is at the minimum bordering on dishonesty to start comparing how many decisions are rendered.

One also has to realize that the tribunals return decisions about marriages where neither party was Catholic (because one of the parties now wants to marry a Catholic - or already has). In addition, the Tribunals also hear cases of form - Catholics who married, e.g. before a Justice of the Peace instead of a priest (these are always granted if there was no permission to do so, and such permission is extremely rare if at all). So the number of decisions that potentially can be criticized immediately are lower in number, a fact that those protesting either are unaware of, or flat out ignore.

There is also the old adage that if you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one that was hit. Some of the criticism of tribunal decisions comes from people who have little or no real knowledge of what a sacrament is, what constitutes the sacrament of marriage, and what consent really means. Most of that is due to a lack of any, or any significant catechesis. Doctrinal and sacramental theology was largely ignored when the Baltimore Catechism was thrown out in the 70’s, and what we got was abysmal. But even those who grew up with the Baltimore Catechism were not highly trained in theology. In talking with some people, one is left with the impression that their understanding of sacrament borders on the magical.

Psychology can be and has been abused (anyone around in the 70’s should understand that point!). But that does not make psychology illegitimate in determining what it takes to have and give full consent to marriage. The difficulty lies in what amounts to sufficient psychological issues to create or amount to an impediment. Add to that the fact that some who have been wounded have an agenda - often not hidden if one listens carefully - of getting back (punishing, if you will) the other party who “wronged” them. They may have been well and truly wronged; but that occured after the wedding ceremony and has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not an impediment existed on the day of the ceremony. However, in their pain and anger, they hear none of that; only that the spouse wronged them, and now the Church is wronging them too.
 
My sister in Christ, my understanding is that a sacramental marriage is a union of male and female that “God has joined together.” Jesus commanded that we not let man separate what “God has joined together” (Matthew 19:6, Mark 10:9). The pursuit of an annulment is an expression of doubt that “God has joined together.” If “God has joined together,” then it is a sinful thought to have that doubt. An annulment is a priest’s declaration that “God has not joined together.” It is a frightful declaration for a priest who has the fear of the Lord to make; because if it is an erroneous declaration, then he disobeys the command to not let man separate what “God has joined together.” Jesus said that a man who divorces his wife “causes her to commit adultery” (Matthew 5:32). This is because her husband exposes her to the temptation (1st Corinthians 7:5) of pursuing a man other than her husband. A priest who erroneously declares “God has not joined together” also “causes her to commit adultery,” because he puts his blessing on the pursuit of that temptation. Adultery was the subject of conversation both before and after our Lord made the graphic comment about it being better to “pluck out” our eye or “cut off” our hand if either of those were to cause us to go to Gehenna (Matthew 5:29-30).

A woman pursues a man by engaging in conversation with a man and then letting him date her in response to him asking her out on a date. When she does this, she is either sinning or she is not sinning. If she is a close relative of the man (Leviticus 18:6-18 + Deuteronomy 25:5 exception) or if “God has joined together” either her or the man to someone else (Leviticus 18:20) who is still living (1st Corinthians 7:39), then she is sinning by dating. This sin would be called “coveting” or “lust” or “committing adultery in the heart” (Matthew 5:28). For all of these reasons, the counsel that I strongly recommend that you give your sister is this: if God has joined together you and BIL, then any man who dates you would be coveting a neighbor’s wife (Exodus 20:17). Stating it like that should not sound “preachy” to her, because it puts the focus not on her but on men who ask her out on a date. She’ll probably recognize “coveting a neighbor’s wife” as the 10th commandment. She may ask, “how do I know if God has joined together me and BIL?” You would then be free to state what you believe to be the answer to that question. She may consult another for a 2nd opinion. She may consult the opinion of a priest. Consulting the opinion of a priest would be the first step towards pursuing an annulment. At this point that’s a better choice than dating, but not as good of a choice as “remain unmarried or be reconciled” (1st Corinthians 7:11) as BIL appears to be doing.

Personally, if my wife of 19 years was to suddenly tell me that she is leaving me because she has never loved me, then I would not put my priest in the difficult spot of trying to figure out whether he can state “God hath not joined together.” As the one who accepted the position of authority in my domestic church (1st Corinthians 11:3), I would humbly advise my wife that she ought not put a priest in that difficult spot either. I would not sign a civil divorce certificate unless there was a threat to any of the assets of our domestic church if I were to not sign. I would tell my wife’s family and friends that I would greatly appreciate it if they could counsel her against dating other men, because I will always want my wife to go to heaven. We are not to allow the devil to deceive us into thinking that either the covetous or the adulterous can go to heaven (1st Corinthians 6:9-10). If I were to ever notice a woman having too much conversation with me despite the ring on my finger, then I would kindly ask her if she wouldn’t mind meeting my wife, because my wife would need to be spending her spare time in the pleasant company of family and female friends who can gently guide her away from thoughts of dating other men. This would not be a request for them to serve as matchmakers, but for them to give the Holy Spirit the opportunity to serve as a matchmaker through our unending gratitude to God for what He did at the cross that we would need to keep expressing in our respective “prayer and fasting” (1st Corinthians 7:5) sabbaticals that are to be kept holy and free of adulterous thoughts. A man is not in a strong position to tell his wife who leaves him that she is not free to date other men, because from her perspective it will sound like he is just being bitter and jealous. Such a man depends upon others, especially his wife’s family and friends, to tell his wife that according to the Word of God spoken in sacred scripture, she is not free to date other men. The use of sacred scripture helps her understand that this is not about an “evil controlling Magisterium telling her how to live her life,” but the one who suffered at the cross so that we would live life with holiness, without which no one can see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

My opinion with regards to a marriage like your sister’s is not so much an opinion as it is a conviction. Every sacrament has “form” and “matter.” In the sacrament of the Eucharist, the “form” is the words Jesus spoke and the priest repeats. The “matter” is the body and blood of Christ in the appearance of bread and wine. I don’t have a copy of the Catechesis available but according to secondexodus.com, the “form” of the sacrament of marriage is “the man and woman conferring the sacrament on each other as witnessed by the Church” and the “matter” is “the consent of the man and woman, expressed externally by words and signs.” My wife and I conferred the sacrament on each other before a priest, a nun at the piano, and 7 witnesses in the pews. That was the “form.” Sometimes my wife laments not having gotten to experience a big wedding, but I always smile and tell her that it was the perfect wedding, because 7 is the symbol of perfection. Since fathers pay for weddings, I am hoping that our daughter buys into that line of reasoning on what constitutes a perfect wedding. 😉

Anyway, in my case, 9 individuals in all witnessed the “form” of our sacrament. No human being witnessed the “matter” of our sacrament since “consent” comes from the heart and no person can look inside a person’s heart. Only God witnessed the “consent” that makes up the “matter” of the sacrament of marriage. The annulment process is a search for “words and signs” that would show that this “consent” occurred. Now I don’t know what “signs” the marriage tribunals search for, but as a married man of 19 years, I would think that consensual intercourse should be at the top of the list of “signs” that show “consent” occurred. In my case, 19 years of consensual intercourse is a lot of consent! I will never doubt that my wife and I entered into the sacrament of marriage no matter what thoughts of hers she might express to me from this point on. We’ll simply need to work on our relationships with God and with each other if her feelings for me were to go away or if she were to think that her feelings for me were never there.

I wrote this lengthy response out of a sense of Christian duty to express my conviction regarding your sister’s situation to you at the point in time that I needed to express it to you. My conviction is that “God has joined together” your sister and her husband, that a man who dates her covets a neighbor’s wife, and that a woman who dates your brother-in-law covets a neighbor’s husband. My conviction has nothing to do with legalism. It is a conviction that is based upon the extremely high level of respect (Hebrews 13:4) God has instilled within me for the sanctity of the act that has the potential of bringing a human being into eternal existence. I wish every priest always had this level of respect for the sanctity of marriage; because if they did, it would be impossible for Satan to ever succeed with a priest in the temptation of any kind of sexual sin. Now, if an annulment is pursued and an annulment is granted for your sister’s case, both I and any other baptized Roman Catholic who shares my conviction would be under obligation to keep our convictions to ourselves beginning at the point in time that the annulment is granted. This is because we lay Roman Catholics are in submission to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. It means always having respect for the responsibility and accountability before God that comes with those who accept that position of authority over us (Luke 12:47-48, Hebrews 13:17), even when our conscience disagrees with the conscience of one who has accepted that position of authority.

As long as the conviction I have is expressed at the time it needs to be expressed, I can be at peace with God in the confidence of me not having been a participant in letting man separate what my conscience believes “God has joined together.” As long as the conviction I have is expressed at the time it needs to be expressed, I can also be at peace in being silent on this matter from the time the annulment is granted to the time I pass from this earth, letting God judge the person(s) who pursued the annulment, the person who granted the annulment, and the person(s) who trusted the annulment by dating and/or marrying the recipient(s) of the annulment.

If you share my conviction that “God has joined together” your sister and brother-in-law and if the fear of the Lord tells you to not be a participant in letting man separate what you believe “God has joined together,” then you should humbly express your conviction to your sister, to your brother-in-law, to any person who might be dating either of them, and to their priest(s). For reasons I will soon explain, write down the date you expressed your conviction to another person. If your sister and/or brother-in-law pursue an annulment anyway and get granted an annulment by a priest (the head of the marriage tribunal), then at the point in time you find out that the annulment has been granted you would have to stop stating or commenting on your conviction that “God has joined together” your sister and brother-in-law out of respect for the church authority over us.

You need the dates that you wrote down your statements on a piece of paper so that if someone who didn’t hear the conviction you stated comes along and starts dating either your sister or your brother-in-law, then you can humbly inform that person that on such-and-such a date you stated your conviction to so-and-so that “God has joined together” your sister and brother-in-law. Repeat that for each of your recorded statements on your chronological list until you get to the date you found out that an annulment had been granted. The person may ask you, “do you still have that conviction now?” That’s an unfair question, because even a “no” response portrays you as wishy-washy. You cannot lie either (Matthew 5:37). If you are asked that question, then you should just reply, “no comment.” This is because if you reply “yes,” then you would commit a type of spiritual adultery against our spiritual husband, the vicar of Christ (Ephesians 5:32), by disrespecting the church authority over us (Hebrews 13:17). This is the church authority that began with Jesus Christ himself before he handed the keys to St. Peter (Matthew 16:18) and every successor of St. Peter from that day until the day the Lord returns (Matthew 28:20) to judge everyone on the earth beginning with us in the Church (1st Peter 4:17).

As far as a church consisting of a spiritual husband of 400,000 celibate priests and a spiritual wife of 1.1 billion single or married lay members is concerned, a lay member’s conviction is very insignificant. But as far as that lay member is concerned, his/her conviction is very significant, because each and every one of us will one day stand before the judgment seat of Christ (Romans 14:10). It is impossible for a baptized Roman Catholic Christian who responds to a divorce situation in the manner I just described to be judged as having disobeyed the Lord by letting man separate what “God has joined together.” Don’t be deceived into thinking your sister’s marriage is none of your business. The Lord made it your business when he gave us the command to not let man separate what “God has joined together.” It was to witnesses at a wedding that the quiet, humble, and blessed mother of our Lord (Luke 1:42-43) gave the only command I recall her giving in sacred scripture, “whatever he says to you, do it” (John 2:5). Sister in Christ, this concludes my humble counsel stated prayerfully from one lay Roman Catholic to another in fear of the Lord.
 
Again, OP, sympathy for you and concern for your sister. The fact remains that Sacramental marriage requires free will. If your sister acted freely then the limits of her intellect (confusion) and emotions (mentally ill?) can only be weighed against the act of her will - her intent. A permanent marriage? Sounds like it - maybe.
 
It’s interesting that you say that catherina…because really, are any of us 100% certain? I was relatively certain that I wanted to marry my husband, but gosh…it’s a life altering decision, and we evolve. My sister got married shortly out of high school…it’s inevitable that she was going to develop new interests, and evolve. She changed, and her husband never really did. He always wanted her to stay at home…and take care of him. She did that for a time, but eventually went out into the corporate world, and I think that served as a pivotal point for them both. I don’t think my BIL ever liked her working, he was a jealous type man…and always suspected she was cheating (I heard this from her, when they were going through the divorce) I remember a lot of good times growing up in the same household as them–but, lots of sad times. My sister really always seemed angry and sad. But, I don’t know if it had a thing to do with her husband.:o It had more to do with the fact that she and I lost our parents, she was obligated to raise me…and she never sought out counseling…which would have helped her, I think.

I think her intent for marriage was mainly to escape a controlling father, but…are we not to try to stay married forever, if all the vows are met, on the part of the other spouse? For example, let’s say we married someone because we felt pressured…but the marriage is otherwise decent, and you have love for the person–aren’t we supposed to still put aside that we were pressured and try to make the commitment work? I mean, for children’s sakes, and so forth, many people do this. I’m not saying stay in something abusive, and what not–but her husband was pretty good to her, albeit controlling and jealous. I do believe he loved her, and showed her that. I dunno.

It saddens me that my sister is dating, and she is not even seeking an annulment. Or exploring the process. I don’t want to preach to her, and drive her away from me. We finally have a good relationship, which took years of building. (due to her bitterness in her marriage, she wasn’t pleasant to be around lol)

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
Hilkiah and otjm–thank you for your replies. I have read them, and will come back later to comment. Bless you.
 
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