My son the fencer

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My son has been fencing internationally for several years. When he was in high school I would travel with him, but for the last couple of years he has gone on his own (except when he went to Paris. Obviously I felt it my duty to go with him there.) He has nearly always been able to find a Catholic Church without any problem (Notre Dame is definitely noticeable). However, he just came back from Estonia. He speaks some Russian, enough, he thought, to ask for a Catholic Church. He only stayed for about 2 hours of the service (he had to leave to catch his plane), and they did not get around to communion, so he still is not sure if he went to part of a Catholic Mass or something else. He did notice that when they crossed themselves they did it right to left, rather than left to right. My question is not about this last trip, but more general. Because of this forum I know much more than I ever did before about various other practices which are 1) Not Roman Catholic, but some other kind of Catholic and in full communion with our Church 2) Schismatics who claim to be the real church, but aren’t, so if you manage to bridge the communication gap and ask them “is this a Catholic church?” they will say yes, but it isn’t 3) Fairly recent schismatics whose practices look very familiar, but they aren’t Catholic, and they wouldn’t even say they are, if you knew the right words in their language, but those words are not in the tiny vocabulary of the short term traveler.

My most recent suggestion to him is to take a picture of the Pope, and show it to people and see if they smile and nod. He said that Estonians don’t smile at anything, especially the old people who actually go to church, so that would not have helped on this trip.

Anyone have experience traveling to other countries and figuring out how to get to Mass?
 
According to the Wikipedia, there are only 6000 Roman Catholics in Estonia, and perhaps two parishes. It certainly sounds as though he attended an Orthodox service, and the fact that he didn’t make it to communion should not trouble you because (1) Orthodox do not accept Roman Catholics at communion and (2) their style of receiving is daunting to a novice and he would have been frowned on for attempting it without instruction.
 
I would contact the tourism board. They usually have translators who’d be able to help him.

If is is a professional athlete there may also be orginizations that he can belong to that would aid him.

My other thought is to see if he can hire a Catholic travel agent, or atleast a Christian one, who would do the research for him.
 
If he knows exactly where he will be going I’d look it up on the web and see if he can find church listings and addresses. Blessings on your son for his faithfulness to Mass and kudos on his fencing.
 
jbuck919 said:
According to the Wikipedia, there are only 6000 Roman Catholics in Estonia, and perhaps two parishes. It certainly sounds as though he attended an Orthodox service, and the fact that he didn’t make it to communion should not trouble you because (1) Orthodox do not accept Roman Catholics at communion and (2)** their style of receiving is daunting to a novice and he would have been frowned on for attempting it without instruction**.
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Can you explain a little of the this? I’m curious.
 
momor said:
Can you explain a little of the this? I’m curious.
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I’ve pretty sure they stab a price of bread with a small fork or spear (it’s a piece of normal break, not a wafer) and then they dip it in the wine. They then insert it directly into the communicant’s mouth, who then eats it.

At least that’s how they do it at the Orthodox church I visited in Chicago many years ago! Not sure if it’s any different in Estonia, but I doubt it. It might be a bit confusing for someone who doesn’t know what to expect.
 
He may also have gone to an Eastern Catholic Church since they also cross themselves right to left and receive communion on a gold spoon having been dipped in the precious blood. In either case, he attended as much of the Divine Liturgy as possible in his situation so filled the Sunday Obligation. The reception of communion is only required once a year.
 
momor said:
Can you explain a little of the this? I’m curious.
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The Byzantine Rite, used by many of the Eastern Catholic Churches as well as all the Eastern Orthodox Churches, communion is received from a spoon.

The Precious body, confected from leavened bread, is immersed into the chalice by the priest.

When the individual approaches for communion, they step forward very close (toes to the ambon*), tilt the head back, open the mouth like a little bird, and Father** will drop a piece of the precious body into the communicant’s mouth.

He attended a valid liturgy, and fulfilled his obligation.

It’s very possible that the service might have been a Catholic one, of one of the Byzantine Rite Churches in Union with Rome. Estonia, it might have been Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church parish, which would be 100% Catholic… Which, when all is said and done, is almost indistinguishable from Ukrainian Orthodox or Russian Orthodox to the casual observer.

One should note that, in Europe, most Byzantine Rite Catholic parishes will not commune even other Catholics unless the individual has been to confession within the week prior.
Garyjohn2 said:
I’ve pretty sure they stab a price of bread with a small fork or spear (it’s a piece of normal break, not a wafer) and then they dip it in the wine. They then insert it directly into the communicant’s mouth, who then eats it.

At least that’s how they do it at the Orthodox church I visited in Chicago many years ago! Not sure if it’s any different in Estonia, but I doubt it. It might be a bit confusing for someone who doesn’t know what to expect.
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No fork is used in any byzantine rite parish, catholic nor orthodox, that I’ve ever seen nor heard of. At least not for communion.

The stabbing is all done before liturgy, with a small, somewhat blunt, knife, called the lance. It’s used to cut the “Lamb” out of the loaf, and to cut the particles which may or may not also be used for communion (depends on which church is involved).

The Melkites (Catholic) and Antiochian Orthodox sometimes use strips, dipped into the chalice by hand, but again, it’s make like a baby bird.

Even communion services are done with immersion of the Body into wine.
  • a projection of the dais in front of the doors of the altar.
    ** priests and deacons are both addressed as Father in the Byzantine use; when distinguishment is needed, Reverend Father is a priest, Father Deacon is a deacon, Father Hieromonk is a monastic priest, Father Hierodeacon is a monastic deacon, and Father Monk is a non-ordained or minor-orders ordained monastic.
 
Garyjohn2 said:
I’ve pretty sure they stab a price of bread with a small fork or spear (it’s a piece of normal break, not a wafer) and then they dip it in the wine. They then insert it directly into the communicant’s mouth, who then eats it.

At least that’s how they do it at the Orthodox church I visited in Chicago many years ago! Not sure if it’s any different in Estonia, but I doubt it. It might be a bit confusing for someone who doesn’t know what to expect.
Click to expand...
No fork is used in any byzantine rite parish, catholic nor orthodox, that I’ve ever seen nor heard of. At least not for communion.

The stabbing is all done before liturgy, with a small, somewhat blunt, knife, called the lance. It’s used to cut the “Lamb” out of the loaf, and to cut the particles which may or may not also be used for communion (depends on which church is involved).

The Melkites (Catholic) and Antiochian Orthodox sometimes use strips, dipped into the chalice by hand, but again, it’s make like a baby bird.

Even communion services are done with immersion of the Body into wine.
 
Garyjohn2 said:
I’ve pretty sure they stab a price of bread with a small fork or spear (it’s a piece of normal break, not a wafer) and then they dip it in the wine. They then insert it directly into the communicant’s mouth, who then eats it.
.
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i thought the catholic church accepted orthodox communion as valid?
 
ZxM said:
i thought the catholic church accepted orthodox communion as valid?
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We do indeed accept it as valid. That does not make the appearance of bread and wine any less true. It has always been referred to as consecrated bread or wine. Or in short hand, bread and wine. For example: at the Last Supper it reads "He broke the bread gave it to His disciples and said, ‘Take and eat for this is my body’ "
 
its always referred to as the body and blood of christ after consecration.

isnt that why in the scripture you quote that first its the bread and then comma it is the body.
 
Not in the documents I’ve read. In fact, the Church does not teach that the change takes place then or earlier. I may take place when He blessed the bread rather than AFTER he broke it, or when he said ‘this is my body’ Not all forms of the divine liturgy even use these words. They are implied but not used.

The Church teaches that the bread becomes his body between the Sanctus and the Amen.

It is often referred to as consecrated bread when reserved in the tabernacle and that no consecrated wine is to be reserved but must be consumed.
 
Actually, Evan, some Byzantine uses spoon some of the precious blood over the precious body, and let it dry, before reserving it. Therefore, it indeed is visibly the sign of the fullness of communion.

This is also relevant for the way communion services (Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts and Typica with Communion) are done in the Byzantine Rite.
 
Aramis said:
Actually, Evan, some Byzantine uses spoon some of the precious blood over the precious body, and let it dry, before reserving it. Therefore, it indeed is visibly the sign of the fullness of communion.

This is also relevant for the way communion services (Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts and Typica with Communion) are done in the Byzantine Rite.
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That is so cool. It seems so appropriate in connection with the way the Byzantine receive the body and blood. 👍
 
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