My (soon to be former if things to not change) Parish

[Jennifer_J]

*]Agnus Dei: According to the GIRM, “Lamb of God” cannot be changed to words like “Bread of Life”

Can you point me to the part of the GIRM that prohibits this? I can’t find it… all I find is this reference

<<e. : during the breaking of the bread and the commingling,
the is as a rule sung by the choir or cantor with the
congregation responding; otherwise it is recited aloud. This
invocation may be repeated as often as necessary to accompany the
breaking of the bread. The final reprise concludes with the words,
.>>

Maybe I’m missing it somewhere? Thanks!
Jennifer

 

[bear06]

That doesn’t mean it’s allowed, just that it’s done. Only a priest or deacon can give the homily.

nccbuscc.org/norms/766.htm
<<The diocesan bishop will determine the appropriate situations in accord with canon 772§1. In providing for preaching by the lay faithful the diocesan bishop may never dispense from the norm which reserves the homily to the sacred ministers (c. 767§1; cfr. Pontifical Commission for the Authentic Interpretation of the Code of Canon Law, 26 May 1987, in AAS 79 [1987], 1249). Preaching by the lay faithful may not take place within the Celebration of the Eucharist at the moment reserved for the homily>>

What you describe sounds like an abuse.

Jennifer

Yes, just because a bishop allows something doesn’t mean it’s OK. Here’s a little more on the issue.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1031087&postcount=6

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1048983&postcount=11

From Redemptionis Sacramentum

1. The Other Parts of the Mass

[64.] The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself,[142] “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.[143] In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.[144]

[65.] It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.[145] This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.

 

[mystified]

I did not leave my parish, my parish left me.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

I did not leave my parish, my parish left me.

That sounds almost Anlican. Don’t they say We did not leave the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church left us.

As I type, I am debating whether to go to my parish for Mass tonight or go to the nearby parish where I have been going for the past 2 weeks.

PF

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Mike:

When the Church had Male Acolytes only, she didn’t have a Priest crises or any problem betting enough priest. Now, that the Church is doing it the way you and the feminists want, the Church has the Vocations (and Episcopal) Crisis we’ve all heard about.

Unless you want to Ordain women priestesses, this is a preity dreadful way to go - Wouldn’t you think?

Even Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have stated that serving at the Alter is the first step in the formation of Priests, and both have said that the lack of Male Acolytes, Coupled with the Abundance of Famale Alter Servers in many parishes (many have almost no Male Acolytes and almost all female alter servers), has made it harder for young men to hear the call to the priesthood or to have the early formation so many priests had 50-100 years ago.

I think that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI knew what they were talking about. I don’t the Alter of Sacrifice is where we should be trying to advance the feminist agenda or any other agendas except for the Gospel of Christ and the Catholic Faith.

What does having Famale Alter Servers instead of Male Acolytes have to do with advancing the Gospel of Christ or providing young men with the beginnings of priestly formation?

Why do you think those Churches which haven’t done as you want them to do don’t have a “Vocations Crisis”?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

Pax tecum!

I don’t have a big problem with girl altar servers, as long as they are not overused (which they are in many cases). If there are not enough boys to serve, then the girls can be used. But if there are enough boys to serve, then preference should be given to them, as this is the first step towards the priesthood. I hardly think that simply having girl altar servers is “advancing the feminist agenda” unless it is done for the reasons of a feminist altar server trainer (as was mentioned by a poster above). I would rather only boys served because we have a vocation crisis and hopefully that would help, but if there are not enough then I don’t have a problem with a girl serving. But, like I said, they should not be given preference over male altar servers.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[mommyaprilj]

Oh, for heaven’s sake!! :banghead: Everybody needs to get over the alter girl issue. My parish has an approximate 50/50 split on boys and girls serving as servers. It’s not a problem.

If a boy has a calling to the priesthood, God will guide him to it regardless on whether he serves next to a girl or not.

Bang your poor head as long as you want dear it wont go away. I honestly think some people would get rid of Mary if they could after all (horror of horrors) SHE WAS A WOMAN!

 

[mommyaprilj]

I did not leave my parish, my parish left me.

Sounds more to me like

I didn’t like everything so I’m out of here. I’ll go somewhere else.

Isn’t that the definition of a Protestant?

 

[Traditional_Ang]

from what I hear a local bishop can allow lay people to give reflections for homilies. Regardless of if its a good idea I think it can happen… maybe a change happened and your bishop allowed it.

If not I would write to him and let him know your feelings. As long as the mass isn’t invalidated though, I myself would still go even if there were things i was upset about.

jennyr:

It isn’t about whether a Mass is INVALID or VALID, and a Bishop can’t allow anything that is contrary to the GIRM or to a direct Papal Encyclical or Pastoral Letter. Actions which are in contradition of the Pope’s direct requests as expressed in the GIRM and his Enclycicals of Pastoral Letters may not render a mass INVALID, but they would render it illicit. Although you would still be able to get the grace and benefit of the Sacrament if you were in extremis, you probably would not if you were able to go elsewhere with ease and had chosen to go the the ILLICIT MASS because of the violations or in spite of the violations.

A Catholic should hear the Gospel Preached and Catholic Faith Proclaimed. These may not happen if the Readings, Gospel, Psalm or the Creed are left out (I used to attend Campus Ministry Masses at a Catholic University were we were lucky if we heard the Gospel). We also heard a lot of Canon 5, “Make it up as you go,” and were served a lot of leavened bread.

If I hadn’t been such a lazy apostate, I could have gone to a LICIT MASS just up the hill that would have required me to get up 6 hours earlier.

Then I wonder why I stumbled so much that year and burned out so badly? And, Why it took God so much work to bring me back?

NO bishop or priest may contradict the Pope on an issue of Faith and Morals - Once he does, he is in schism from the Pope and the Church, in fact if not in law…

I would not place my soul in the hands of someone who knowingly and frenquently does that, and I would not do as I did that year,

I learned that lesson the hard way. I strongly recommend those reading this post consider this carefully.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[kleary]

Oh, for heaven’s sake!! :banghead: Everybody needs to get over the alter girl issue. My parish has an approximate 50/50 split on boys and girls serving as servers. It’s not a problem.

If a boy has a calling to the priesthood, God will guide him to it regardless on whether he serves next to a girl or not.

And the girl will also follow her heart like Sister Joan Chittister if she wants to also.

You are only incouraging the ideals of apostasy by allowing girls to serve at the altar- they should NOT BE THERE.

Ken

 

[jennyr]

If Bishops are not allowed to give instructions to allow lay reflections why are they allowed to remain Bishops?

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Bang your poor head as long as you want dear it wont go away. I honestly think some people would get rid of Mary if they could after all (horror of horrors) SHE WAS A WOMAN!

mommyaprilj:

One problem with your hypotheses. The Blessed Virgin Mary was called the “Theotokos” by the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus, is called, “Ever Virgin” by both the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church, is said to have been “Bodily Assumed into Heaven” by BOTH East and West (See the final scenes of Oedipus at Colonus for a description of an Assumption as well as 2 Kgs 2:11 & Rev. 12:5-6).

At the same time, because the Eastern Orthordox don’t think of Original Sin in anything like the way the Catholic Church does, the Eastern Church doesn’t say that Mary was Immaculately Conceived (The Blessed Virgin Mary died and was affected by Orignial Sin). On the other hand, the Eastern Church will say that Mary not only was conceived without sin (they don’t have our notion of Original Sin), but that she LIVED without sin.

Of course, Catholics are required to believe in the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. So, it’s a setled issue either way.

Now, here’s a question for all those who want to promote women priestesses - Jesus mother would have made an ideal Apostle IF HE WANTED TO HAVE WOMEN PRIESTESSES AND BISHOPESSES.

She was absolutely faithful, saying “Yes” to God when most of us would have said “No”. Our Lord even relied on her to tell Him when to start his Journey to Calvary (Look at the Dialogue at Cana in John’s Gospel - Read it REAL Slowly), And, She was even at the cross when most of his disciples had deserted Him.

Jesus wasn’t afraid to turn the world on its head when it was important to Him, and the Pagan world had plenty of prominent priestesses in influentual positions.

With all of these, why didn’t Jesus choose His own Mother to be an Apostle? Why is it that instead he told St. John to take care of Her and made her “Mother of the Church”?

And, if the Church wanted so much to get rid of women, why is it that the status of women was dramatically improved under the Church?

Why is it that Feminists fight so hard to get a position, that if they got it, they would be unable, according to Scripture and Tradition, to act as conduits for the “Inward and invisable Grace” which is the reason performing the Sacraments?

And, why is it that Feminist want so hard to get a position that makes them responsible for the sinful actions of those they could warn?

Is if because they neither believe in the grace nor the sin nor the responsibility for the sin?

If that’s so, then why did Christ die? And, Was Christ physically raised from the dead on the third day like it says in Scripture and the Creeds?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

If Bishops are not allowed to give instructions to allow lay reflections why are they allowed to remain Bishops?

jennyr:

Bishops are called “Bishops of Souls” - I seem to recall a situation 1-1/2 years ago in Florida involving a young lady by the name of Teresa Schindler Schiavo. The Bishop of her diocese not only directed the priests under his charge to stay way from her, her family and the demonstrations ourtside the hellhole she was in, He made sure he was halfway aeound the world when she was dying. To add insult to injury, he took punative action against those who tried to calm the crowds. Since the priests were responding to a call from me, he might as well have tried to penalize me.

If you ask the Orthodox borthers, I’m sure they’ll tell you that I was acting more like a Bishop than he was.

Here are some Scriptures starting with the “Prophet’s Charge”:

*Thus the word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel. When you hear a word from my mouth, you shall warn them for me.

If I say to the wicked man, You shall surely die; and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his wicked conduct so that he may live: that wicked man shall die for his sin, but I will hold you responsible for his death. If, on the other hand, you have warned the wicked man, yet he has not turned away from his evil nor from his wicked conduct, then he shall die for his sin, but you shall save your life.

If a virtuous man turns away from virtue and does wrong when I place a stumbling block before him, he shall die. He shall die for his sin, and his virtuous deeds shall not be remembered; but I will hold you responsible for his death if you did not warn him. When, on the other hand, you have warned a virtuous man not to sin, and he has in fact not sinned, he shall surely live because of the warning, and you shall save your own life.
Ezekiel 3:17-21 NAB*

The the “Great Commision”:

Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
Matt 28:18-20 NAB

The Power of a Bishop:

(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
Jn 20:21-23 NAB

Job One for a Bishop:

*I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching.

For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

But you, be self-possessed in all circumstances; put up with hardship; perform the work of an evangelist; fulfill your ministry.
2 Tim 4:1-5 NAB*

This is what a Bishop is:

For a bishop as God’s steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled, holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.
Titus 1:7-9 NAB

Jenny, a Bishop who is busy doing these things and tending to the spiritual welfare of his flock and praying night and day for them as I’ve seen some Bishops and priests doing would be far too busy to be doing the type of tinkering you’re talking about.

A Bishop’s main job is to make sure that he Preaches the Gospel and Proclaims the Catholic Faith to as many people as clearly as he can, and that he provides adaquate Catechesis for those who want to convert, to know our Lord and to join His Church. His second job is encourage young men to beome priests and to maintain a seminary that aids them in their vocation rather than chasing them out.

If he’s doing these things, he will be far too busy to be doing the kind of tinkering your post alluded to.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[mikew262]

The approval of females serving at the altar was born amidst abuse and I pray that it will one day be reversed.

Don’t count on it.

 

[mikew262]

Mike:

When the Church had Male Acolytes only, she didn’t have a Priest crises or any problem betting enough priest. Now, that the Church is doing it the way you and the feminists want, the Church has the Vocations (and Episcopal) Crisis we’ve all heard about.

Unless you want to Ordain women priestesses, this is a preity dreadful way to go - Wouldn’t you think?

Even Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have stated that serving at the Alter is the first step in the formation of Priests, and both have said that the lack of Male Acolytes, Coupled with the Abundance of Famale Alter Servers in many parishes (many have almost no Male Acolytes and almost all female alter servers), has made it harder for young men to hear the call to the priesthood or to have the early formation so many priests had 50-100 years ago.

I think that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI knew what they were talking about. I don’t the Alter of Sacrifice is where we should be trying to advance the feminist agenda or any other agendas except for the Gospel of Christ and the Catholic Faith.

What does having Famale Alter Servers instead of Male Acolytes have to do with advancing the Gospel of Christ or providing young men with the beginnings of priestly formation?

Why do you think those Churches which haven’t done as you want them to do don’t have a “Vocations Crisis”?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

IMO, it’s much a-doo over nothing by disgruntled Catholic traditionalists.

As somebody else mentioned, who is too say having young girls as alter servers doesn’t promote vocations to the convent?

 

[mikew262]

And the girl will also follow her heart like Sister Joan Chittister if she wants to also.

You are only incouraging the ideals of apostasy by allowing girls to serve at the altar- they should NOT BE THERE.

Ken

Oh brother!!

 

[8640]

If Bishops are not allowed to give instructions to allow lay reflections why are they allowed to remain Bishops?

You can’t unmake a bishop, they are bishops for eternity

 

[mystified]

No, Mommyaprilj,
It is sometimes difficult to tell if it is still a Catholic parish with all the innovations and deviations. In addition to the pastor dancing around the sanctuary in street clothes and his penchant for nice glassware, plus his references to the Blessed Sacrament as a “sign”, yesterday there was some kind of display in the center aisle near the back of the church that was not explained; it featured more candles than were in the sanctuary and the pastor genuflected to it as he left the church.
Several long-time members of the parish, including me, have been restricted to only attending Mass on Sundays. Nobody is being told why, “That’s just the way it is and is going to be.” I was even escorted from the parish fundraising carnival by armed private guards after making a single purchase in my 15 minutes there.
Many other parishioners are attending Mass elsewhere and even a majority of one choir, rather traditional in the sense that they did no Haugen or Haas music, is now part of Eucharistic celebrations in another parish. Masses, formerly SRO, are now about half full.

 

[catholicbudgie]

Oh, for heaven’s sake!! :banghead: Everybody needs to get over the alter girl issue. My parish has an approximate 50/50 split on boys and girls serving as servers. It’s not a problem.

If a boy has a calling to the priesthood, God will guide him to it regardless on whether he serves next to a girl or not.

Agree wholeheartedly. We have enough problems with Christian Fundamentalists why do we need Catholic Fundies, too?

Speak to the Priest, the Bishop.Don’t just sit there holier than thou. If you don’t like it SAY SOMETHING!

Not here, on line - say it there!

 

[Traditional_Ang]

IMO, it’s much a-doo over nothing by disgruntled Catholic traditionalists.

As somebody else mentioned, who is too say having young girls as alter servers doesn’t promote vocations to the convent?

Mike:

If your theory were correct, the Church’s convent’s would all be buldging at the seems with women waiting to take their vows to become nuns.

Since that’s not the case, and fewer women are entering religious orders than when they didn’t have female “alter servers”, the exact opposite must be said to be true.

On the other hand, having women as “alter servers” (and often far more girls then boys) has encouraged women to want to become priests (note the women trying to become “Ordained” in the Catholic Church along with the plethora of INVALIDLY Ordained women priestesses in the Anglican Communion.

At the same time, this has DISCOURAGED boys from taking their first steps towards persuing their priestly vocations. The proof of that is the ongong and severe priestly crisis which has left 1,000’s of congregations in the USA sharing priests in spite of the fact that the USA has “borrowed” 1,000’s of priests from other countries during the last 30 years.

These are the facts - I’m sorry if they make you uncomfortable.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Agree wholeheartedly. We have enough problems with Christian Fundamentalists why do we need Catholic Fundies, too?

Speak to the Priest, the Bishop.Don’t just sit there holier than thou. If you don’t like it SAY SOMETHING!

Not here, on line - say it there!

catholicbudgie:

Could you please define Christian Fundamentalist and Catholic Fundamentalist?

In my book, a Christian Fundamentalist believes that the Sacred Scriptures are the Inspired word of God, that God gave them them to us for the reasons stated by St. Paul below.

All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3:16-17 NAB

Because of that, Fundamentalist Christians try to base the doctrines they teach on the Bible and try to accept doctrines taught in the Bible as being either necessary for their salvation or for their edification.

Unlike like a lot of others, they do try to live by and raise their families to follow the instructions in the Bible. Because they are human, they don’t always succeed.

A Catholic Fundamentalist accepts whatever the Church teaches as true and necessary for salvation, trying to follow the dictates of the Church in their own lives and trying to teach their families and those they care about to follow them in theirs.

Pope Benedict XVI is a Catholic Fundamentalist, same for Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa of Calcatta and almost all of the Saints throughout the ages.

Because a lot of bishops and others were in rebellion, esp. in the prosperous West, many missed not only the instruction of Humanae Vitae, but also the prophecies of Humanae Vitae

Your Brother in Christ, Michael