My (soon to be former if things to not change) Parish

[catholicbudgie]

catholicbudgie:

Could you please define Christian Fundamentalist and Catholic Fundamentalist?

/start rant

Ok then. A fundamentalist is someone of any type, Catholic or other christian denomination, who looks at the text and decides that THAT"S IT. Period. I am extremely annoyed by those people in my church who read the GIRM or the CCC and decide that they know best.

It irritates me.

Same as those sola scripture types who read their bibles and try to tell me that Catholicism is wrong because we do something that isn’t specifally written in the text.

People: We are not Sola Scriptura. We rely in the teaching and sage advice of our clerics, as well as the sacred writings. Put your GIRM down, take off your blinkers and become aware of the world around you.

I am surrounded by Catholic fundies. The only difference i can see in them from Jack Chick’s mob is that they give their nod towards Rome. But, there’s only one way to do a Mass and only one way to embrace the people, and so on. Their way is of course superior to every other Catholic church in the area.

/end rant

That’s what I mean when I use the term fundamentalist - I ain’t being complementary. One who cannot see the wood for the trees

 

[Isidore_AK]

/start rant

Ok then. A fundamentalist is someone of any type, Catholic or other christian denomination, who looks at the text and decides that THAT"S IT. Period. I am extremely annoyed by those people in my church who read the GIRM or the CCC and decide that they know best.

It irritates me.

Same as those sola scripture types who read their bibles and try to tell me that Catholicism is wrong because we do something that isn’t specifally written in the text.

People: We are not Sola Scriptura. We rely in the teaching and sage advice of our clerics, as well as the sacred writings. Put your GIRM down, take off your blinkers and become aware of the world around you.

I am surrounded by Catholic fundies. The only difference i can see in them from Jack Chick’s mob is that they give their nod towards Rome. But, there’s only one way to do a Mass and only one way to embrace the people, and so on. Their way is of course superior to every other Catholic church in the area.

/end rant

That’s what I mean when I use the term fundamentalist - I ain’t being complementary. One who cannot see the wood for the trees

And what, exactly, is so very wrong with wanting people to follow the rules of our faith?

 

[mikew262]

/start rant

Ok then. A fundamentalist is someone of any type, Catholic or other christian denomination, who looks at the text and decides that THAT"S IT. Period. I am extremely annoyed by those people in my church who read the GIRM or the CCC and decide that they know best.

It irritates me.

Same as those sola scripture types who read their bibles and try to tell me that Catholicism is wrong because we do something that isn’t specifally written in the text.

People: We are not Sola Scriptura. We rely in the teaching and sage advice of our clerics, as well as the sacred writings. Put your GIRM down, take off your blinkers and become aware of the world around you.

I am surrounded by Catholic fundies. The only difference i can see in them from Jack Chick’s mob is that they give their nod towards Rome. But, there’s only one way to do a Mass and only one way to embrace the people, and so on. Their way is of course superior to every other Catholic church in the area.

/end rant

That’s what I mean when I use the term fundamentalist - I ain’t being complementary. One who cannot see the wood for the trees

 

[mikew262]

Mike:

If your theory were correct, the Church’s convent’s would all be buldging at the seems with women waiting to take their vows to become nuns.

Since that’s not the case, and fewer women are entering religious orders than when they didn’t have female “alter servers”, the exact opposite must be said to be true.

On the other hand, having women as “alter servers” (and often far more girls then boys) has encouraged women to want to become priests (note the women trying to become “Ordained” in the Catholic Church along with the plethora of INVALIDLY Ordained women priestesses in the Anglican Communion.

At the same time, this has DISCOURAGED boys from taking their first steps towards persuing their priestly vocations. The proof of that is the ongong and severe priestly crisis which has left 1,000’s of congregations in the USA sharing priests in spite of the fact that the USA has “borrowed” 1,000’s of priests from other countries during the last 30 years.

These are the facts - I’m sorry if they make you uncomfortable.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

So having alter girls has almost solely caused the priest shortage? Is this what you saying? If so, I say baloney!

This is strictly opinion on your part. I’m not disputing that it may have played a minor role (if any), but to say any more than that is opinion only.

 

[dantheman]

Can you point me to the part of the GIRM that prohibits this? I can’t find it… all I find is this reference

<<e. : during the breaking of the bread and the commingling,
the is as a rule sung by the choir or cantor with the
congregation responding; otherwise it is recited aloud. This
invocation may be repeated as often as necessary to accompany the
breaking of the bread. The final reprise concludes with the words,
.>>

Maybe I’m missing it somewhere? Thanks!
Jennifer

#366 in the GIRM: "It is not permitted to substitute other chants for those found in the Order of Mass, such as at the Agnus Dei.

 

[bear06]

So having alter girls has almost solely caused the priest shortage? Is this what you saying? If so, I say baloney!

This is strictly opinion on your part. I’m not disputing that it may have played a minor role (if any), but to say any more than that is opinion only.

I wouldn’t say solely but are you really saying it was minor? At my former parish and my in-law’s church they had 6 boys at every Mass. The girls came in and, at least in my in-law’s parish, almost all of the boys left. It was very sad because I don’t think that anyone can deny that it was a great way to foster a vocation.

 

[Trident59]

I can’t believe I’m back doing a response.

During the “Crash” I went over to another forum that has more " Traditionalist" members (and where I feel more comfortable) too many liberals here on this one, but what the heck !

Regarding a parish change; even with many abuses there is the possibility that the previously described Mass is valid. However, even if it is valid, its like having a filet mignon served without seasoning versus one sevred that is well seasoned. Its still steak, but the later just tastes better.

Why should you torture yourself by putting up with all of this abusive nonsense?

I seek out Masses that are more Traditional. Even found some very reverent NO Masses with Gregorian. As a matter of fact, several local parishes are now trying to incorporate some Sacred polyphony and Chant. This is very encouraging to people that think like me.(and there are lots of us).

As for you “Kumbaya” modern, clappy hands, etc., etc., New mass folks hope you enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[catholicbudgie]

And what, exactly, is so very wrong with wanting people to follow the rules of our faith?

Nothing, really, I was rather inelegantly trying to explain that I personally am annoyed at the wholier than thou brigade that can populate the pews of a Catholic Church.

EDIT

The Catholic Curch is a wonderfully fluid organization - we can have a leader in Pope Benedict XVI who is so different to the previous one and yet we don’t disintegrate into various groups - unlike our bethren in the Anglican community who are having issues over gay and women priests.

As a former Anglican, I fell qualified to comment. I believe the issues in the Anglican community are caused by precisely this syndrome - some members decide they are more right than other members and rather than working it out they go “Right! I’m off somewhere to make MY church!” and thus the fragmentation of the christianities continues.

That’s why I’m leery of that attitude when I come across it in a Catholic Parish and that’s why I don’t like it.

 

[Jennifer_J]

#366 in the GIRM: "It is not permitted to substitute other chants for those found in the Order of Mass, such as at the Agnus Dei.

Maybe I’m being obtuse and I don’t want to argue, but I don’t see how this says you can’t sing
Lamb of God You take away the sins of the world have mercy on us
, Bread of Life you take away the sins of the world have mercy on us
, Lamb of God you take aways the sins of the world Grant us peace?

A totally different chant is not being sung (“Jesus remember me” for instance), I’m using the Lamb of God and adding other discriptors? I still don’t know if that’s okay, this particular instruction is too vague in my opinon, unless I’m missing something else. I’d welcome any clarification from anyone!

Jennifer

 

[prochorus]

Why can’t we substitute other words? Because that’s the rule. If the Church wanted it to be another way, it would add in the rubrics: “Using these or similar words…” BUT that’s NOT the case for the Lamb of God.

IGMR 2000, § 366, refers explicitly to the Agnus Dei: “It is not permitted to substitute for the chants found in the Order of Mass, e.g., at the Agnus Dei.”

“Lamb of God” is the way it is in the Order of Mass. Not “Bread of Life” not “Word of the Father.” The chant is to be done as it is in the Order of Mass. Follow the Order of Mass. Read the Order of Mass. Don’t change things from the way they are in the Order of Mass.

Let me propose some similar but off-topic questions: Why can’t I drive my car on the sidewalk? Or drive at 95 mph on sidestreets? Why doesn’t Major League Baseball allow “do overs” and why can we let runners who aren’t as physically fit get a run for making it to first base? C’mon? And why aren’t there any WOMEN in MLB? How come there aren’t any Mulligan’s in the PGA? Who do they think they are? And especially, what’s up with the lack of headscarfs in the US House of Representatives? This is soo disrespectful to Muslims. Why isn’t there a channel 3.5 on my television? Why do cars have four wheels? Why? Why?? Why??? (Does anyone else realize that this sounds like a terrible two-year-old?)

 

[G_S]

Maybe I’m being obtuse and I don’t want to argue, but I don’t see how this says you can’t sing
Lamb of God You take away the sins of the world have mercy on us
, Bread of Life you take away the sins of the world have mercy on us
, Lamb of God you take aways the sins of the world Grant us peace?

A totally different chant is not being sung (“Jesus remember me” for instance), I’m using the Lamb of God and adding other discriptors? I still don’t know if that’s okay, this particular instruction is too vague in my opinon, unless I’m missing something else. I’d welcome any clarification from anyone!

Jennifer

I have heard the most beautiful verses of the Lamb of God using alternate wording – “King of Kings” and “Lord of Lords.” However, some places used the occasion for politicizing or pushing an agenda. What would prevent “Enlightened One,” “Loving Friend,” “Cosmic Christ?” Also, the dramatic association of the Mass and the heavenly banquet is weakened by not using Lamb of God.

 

[mommyaprilj]

No, Mommyaprilj,
It is sometimes difficult to tell if it is still a Catholic parish with all the innovations and deviations. In addition to the pastor dancing around the sanctuary in street clothes and his penchant for nice glassware, plus his references to the Blessed Sacrament as a “sign”, yesterday there was some kind of display in the center aisle near the back of the church that was not explained; it featured more candles than were in the sanctuary and the pastor genuflected to it as he left the church.
Several long-time members of the parish, including me, have been restricted to only attending Mass on Sundays. Nobody is being told why, “That’s just the way it is and is going to be.” I was even escorted from the parish fundraising carnival by armed private guards after making a single purchase in my 15 minutes there.
Many other parishioners are attending Mass elsewhere and even a majority of one choir, rather traditional in the sense that they did no Haugen or Haas music, is now part of Eucharistic celebrations in another parish. Masses, formerly SRO, are now about half full.

Prehaps something about YOU is the problem.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Why can’t we substitute other words? Because that’s the rule. If the Church wanted it to be another way, it would add in the rubrics: “Using these or similar words…” BUT that’s NOT the case for the Lamb of God.

IGMR 2000, § 366, refers explicitly to the Agnus Dei: “It is not permitted to substitute for the chants found in the Order of Mass, e.g., at the Agnus Dei.”

“Lamb of God” is the way it is in the Order of Mass. Not “Bread of Life” not “Word of the Father.” The chant is to be done as it is in the Order of Mass. Follow the Order of Mass. Read the Order of Mass. Don’t change things from the way they are in the Order of Mass.

Let me propose some similar but off-topic questions: Why can’t I drive my car on the sidewalk? Or drive at 95 mph on sidestreets? Why doesn’t Major League Baseball allow “do overs” and why can we let runners who aren’t as physically fit get a run for making it to first base? C’mon? And why aren’t there any WOMEN in MLB? How come there aren’t any Mulligan’s in the PGA? Who do they think they are? And especially, what’s up with the lack of headscarfs in the US House of Representatives? This is soo disrespectful to Muslims. Why isn’t there a channel 3.5 on my television? Why do cars have four wheels? Why? Why?? Why??? (Does anyone else realize that this sounds like a terrible two-year-old?)

You know you don’t have to take that tone with me!!! I was asking so that I could perhaps contact our liturgical person with the correct GIRM reference. However, I think that the rubric is vague enough that I will get arguments. I wanted some rules they couldn’t argue with. All I got was a bunch of hooey from you with no real concrete help (and for the record we start and end with Lamb of God!!! so this is more complicated).
Thanks…

 

[prochorus]

I’m not sure what is vague about “It is not permitted to substitute for the chants found in the Order of Mass, e.g., at the Agnus Dei.”

That’s like “It is not permitted to cross on a red signal.” OK. Anything else is jay-walking. If the person argues with the judge that the signal was orange, or magenta, or some other nonsense – they don’t win (unless the judge is a lunatic.)

Tell your music minister to look in the Order of Mass, and show you where it says “Bread of Life,” “King of Kings,” “Big Kahuna,” or whatever phrases he is substituting for “Lamb of God.” The words to the Agnus Dei chant in English are very clear in the Order of Mass.

The only ‘special’ thing about the Agnus Dei is that it MAY be repeated if there is some reason such as a long walk to a side chapel where the Eucharist is reserved, or if the celebrant has to break up the species into multiple containers. The stipulation is that it ends with “dona nobis pacem,” or “grant us peace,” in English.

HOWEVER – a little s-i-l-e-n-c-e at this point in the liturgy allowing people to f-o-c-u-s on the reception of the GOD in the Eucharist is better than trying to fill space and time with travelling music.

Silence is not some sort of a disease that requires the cure of more noise. Rather, it IS be an important part of the liturgy.

You may have to point out to the music minister that some great musician once said something about MUSIC being the SILENCE between the NOTES.

I’m sorry if my tone came across as snotty. It was an attempt at humor.

The pessimist in me suspects that the music minister won’t listen to the rules anyway. After all, there isn’t any way to take faculties away from a music minister – since he’s not really a minister anyway. He’s a liturgical musician – and no matter what silly title he gives himself, he is the SERVANT of the liturgy NOT it’s overlord.

 

[Joe_Monahan]

Condescension and attitude on the part of posters to one another add nothing worthwhile to the discussion and, if repeated, will have adverse consequences all-around.

The expectation is that if a poster poses a legitimate question, that those answering it will afford the benefit of the doubt that it is such and reply accordingly. The forum rules have an anticipation of charity and civility akin to that of discussion between equals in polite society. That is the standard.

Joe Monahan
Moderator

 

[Jennifer_J]

ceciliaschola.org/notes/houseofcards.html

<<Rather than sitting passively, we periodically interjected questions: we called the leader on his claim that musicians are free to make up new parts to add to the “Lamb of god,” on his glossing over the difference between a formal communion chant and just any-old-song the choir wants to sing, as well as a few other points.>>

This is an interesting article that again only alludes to my problem. But it’s a starting point, since I can email the Schola and ask my question about the Agnus Dei.

Jennifer

 

[prochorus]

I suppose the one line ‘sorry if I came off snotty’ is insufficient.

Since humor is failing, let me be more confessional.

Yes, I am a bit short when it comes to liturgical shenanighans. Most likely it is because at one time I spread my own ‘creative’ wings in the form of random liturgical innovations that while not outright abuses at the time, pushed the envelope in my own day.

Like the ex-smoker who is less tolerant of smokers than a lifetime non-smoker … I lack patience with those who do what I did now. Now, that is, with an updated IGRM and the benefit of Redemptionis Sacramentum.

Perhaps what I see as ‘oh so clear’ is not as clear to those who have not had to face their own foibles being played back to them several years after they stopped doing those things. Thirty years ago, we did not have clearly stated instructions. In fact, the first edition of the new missal, there were very few if any instruction.

I am sorry for being ‘cheeky.’ I suppose that that type of thing is not appropriate in these forums. It pains me to think that going from no instructions 30 years ago, to loose instructions 15 years ago, to clearer instructions now … still isn’t “good enough” or “strong enough.”

Please forgive my inappropriately worded posts.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Well, here’s where this idea of adding to the Agnus Dei came from
usccb.org/liturgy/current/musiccathworship.shtml

<<Lamb of God

1. The Agnus Dei is a litany.song to accompany the breaking of the bread in preparation for communion. The invocation and response may be repeated as the action demands. The final response is always “grant us peace.” Unlike the “Holy, Holy, Holy Lord,” and the Lord’s Prayer, the “Lamb of God” is not necessarily a song of the people. Hence it may be sung by the choir, though the people should generally make the response. >>

By calling it a Litany, it seemed to give permission to add to it.
Other than the statement from the GIRM I still can’t locate where this is refuted by the Vatican. I’m still looking for a definitive statement.

adoremus.org/1202AgnusDei.html
Here’s something.
<<Though these proposed texts were approved by the US Bishops, the ICEL Sacramentary revision, including these texts, was rejected by the Holy See.>>

And here with more explaination!!!
canticanova.com/articles/feedback/artem1.htm
Jennifer

 

[prochorus]

Sadly, the USCCB’s “Music in Catholic Worship” is not magisterial. Instead it is a discussion piece from the Bishop’s Committee on Liturgy. Although many would use it as if it were signed by the Holy Father and solemnly promulgated by the appropriate Roman congregation.

One does not need to be afraid to quote the appropriate texts. The liturgical law is quite clear (IGRM, Redemptionis Sacramentum, Liturgium Authenticum). It’s not necessary to have to rationalize the law or to convince someone to obey it. It simply is the law.

 

[TradyDaddy]

I think the pastor at the last Novus Ordo mass center I attended summed it up best. He came out in front of the Altar for the Homily and stated, " I know the new rules say we’re not supposed to give the Homily out front here, but I felt as though the nature of this Homily made it ok. If anyone has a problem with this, just dial 1-800-POPE"

That was the last straw for me. You can’t thumb your nose at the Pope and then condem others as being divisive for attending the TLM… you can’t have it both ways.