My Statement

[brotherhrolf]

It is my understanding that this is the Traditional Catholicism forum. I would call myself a traditional Catholic in that I was born in the early 50s. I attended Catholic schools from primer to 12th grade. I was an altar boy and a chorister for most of that time. I’ve been a member of a cathedral choir for the last 25 years.

Sing a New Church is a hymn sung even to this day, right? I saw then and I see no reason now to sing a new church. There was nothing wrong with the old church. (Just my opinion).

I (and others) had our roots ripped out starting in 1966. We were fed a bill of goods. We were told that the Mass must be in English (which is contrary to what HMC was saying). How many of you actually went through the transition in the mid-60s? How many of you remember the two week notices we got? In two weeks …we will no longer chant the Gloria in Latin…in two weeks we will no longer say the Creed in Latin…in two weeks we will no longer say the Confiteor…in two weeks every option …I’ve been here. I’ve done that. If you think that the NO then bears any resemblance to the OF today, guess again.

I spent no little part of the early 70s in the Navy. Mass on base was as about a straightforward as you could come in English. In the mid-70s (when I came back) I attended a “less than 30 minute NO” vigil Mass. In 1976 I moved here to attend grad school and I discovered the cathedral parish. The principal mass at 10:30 on Sunday was lucky if they had 75 people there.

Married DW in 78 and we moved out to her parish. I dearly loved the pastor but running down from the altar to “schmooze” during the sign of peace is just not what I knew.

In 1983 I was invited to sing in the cathedral choir by a paid chorister who was a co-worker. ( Our Lord moves in mysterious ways). Hoo boy! Latin! I have not looked back.

There is an assumption that everyone of my generation loved the NO. It is not true. We were not allowed time to think. We were handed from on high what would happend with or without our approval. It was a fait accompli.

When I was in the Navy, I took the time to visit a local church in Rota, Spain. My spoken Spanish is marginal. The priest came out and asked me what I was doing there.? I told him that I was an altar boy and was visiting Our Lord. (I’m not making this up) He asked me “Introibo ad altarae Dei” to which I answered "Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam). 1971 boys and girls 1971 and in another country. He took me and showed me all of the sacred relics of this church. That, my brothers and sisters, is being Catholic. Et unam sanctam Catholicam egliesiam.

 

[Indyann]

Well, it has been shown that reminiscence therapy is quite valuable in ministering to the elderly. Is that what this thread is about?

 

[latinmasslover]

Well, it has been shown that reminiscence therapy is quite valuable in ministering to the elderly. Is that what this thread is about?

What is *that *supposed to mean? Sounds rather derogatory, but I could be misreading your tone.

 

[JRKH]

Well I was born in '55, so I wasn’t quite as inculturated as you were. I do remember though learning all the latin to say mass, then having it change - snap - just like that. I never even got to serve one mass in Latin

But I guess I wasn’t so “yanked” since I was younger, but I do remember my adult family not being particularly happy about it. I remember at the time couldn’t understand why the “church” couldn’t offer english and latin masses. I mean my grandparents who were in their late 60’s suddenly had the liturgy of their life yanked away without so much as a “by you leave”.

I’m really not surprised that we wound up with a SSPX type reaction.

I find a similar problem today with the reintroduction of the EF. When I here things like Bishops declaring that “No one in my diocese want the EF”, It just frustrates me. It is just so clearly a political decision and a way to try and squash these “pesky traditionalists”. Where were the Bishops in the 60’s saying, “No one in my Diocese wants mass in English”.

Personally I’m glad to see that both masses are being allowed and encouraged. I know there will be those who advocate allowing only one or the other, but I feel that is just plain wrong. I truly enjoy each for it’s own merits. The OF for it’s simplicity and ease of participation. The EF for its deeply personal spirituality, beauty and “otherworldliness”. I mean for a normal daily mass the OF is great, but you just can’t beat the EF High Mass for high feast days and glorious pomp.

I pray that in another 40 years every parish will be celebrating both and those generations will be wondering what all the fuss was about “back in the day”.

Peace
James

 

[Indyann]

What is *that *supposed to mean? Sounds rather derogatory, but I could be misreading your tone.

Nothing derogatory at all. Reminiscence is a task of those who are getting older. Perfectly natural and shown to be beneficial in accepting the changes of aging. Just wondered what is the purpose of Bro’s statement.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

That, my brothers and sisters, is being Catholic. Et unam sanctam Catholicam egliesiam.

With all due respect, Brother H., I would have to disagree. It is not that what you describe is NOT being Catholic, far from it. “Being Catholic” is simply lies is a far wider spectrum than this description. In it’s narrowest interpretation, “being Catholic” means being in communion with the Successor to Saint Peter, does it not, holding to the fullness of the Faith in union with him? Thus, many who have not experienced what you have experienced are still “being Catholic.” It seems to me that to define it as you have could potentially be as problematic as those who would arrogantly dismiss your appreciation for what has gone before while they “sing a New Church” into being (an idea I dislike as much as you do).

 

[PapaBennySix]

With all due respect, Brother H., I would have to disagree. It is not that what you describe is NOT being Catholic, far from it. “Being Catholic” is simply lies is a far wider spectrum than this description. In it’s narrowest interpretation, “being Catholic” means being in communion with the Successor to Saint Peter, does it not, holding to the fullness of the Faith in union with him? Thus, many who have not experienced what you have experienced are still “being Catholic.” It seems to me that to define it as you have could potentially be as problematic as those who would arrogantly dismiss your appreciation for what has gone before while they “sing a New Church” into being (an idea I dislike as much as you do).

From his last statement, I took it to mean the universal Catholic Church as she once was, you used to be able to go into any Catholic Church in the world and it was all the same, we all spoke the same language, the same faith, the same exact mass. Children were raised learning latin, just as the Jews are/used to be taught hebrew… It’s not the same as it once was… Vatican II was never supposed to allow for the abolition of Latin, but whatever it did, the Latin has all but disappeared. It’s coming back though… and my children are going to know it.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

From his last statement, I took it to mean the universal Catholic Church as she once was, you used to be able to go into any Catholic Church in the world and it was all the same, we all spoke the same language, the same faith, the same exact mass. Children were raised learning latin, just as the Jews are/used to be taught hebrew… It’s not the same as it once was… Vatican II was never supposed to allow for the abolition of Latin, but whatever it did, the Latin has all but disappeared. It’s coming back though… and my children are going to know it.

The Catholic Church is the same all over the world in terms of faith and choice of missals to use (OF or EF).

 

[JRKH]

The Catholic Church is the same all over the world in terms of faith and choice of missals to use (OF or EF).

Yes it is - - - -

The same but different.

Peace
James

 

[brotherhrolf]

Nothing derogatory at all. Reminiscence is a task of those who are getting older. Perfectly natural and shown to be beneficial in accepting the changes of aging. Just wondered what is the purpose of Bro’s statement.

Why, yes, sonny, and I hope that you are treated as well as 56 as I have been. I’m not dead yet. I’m feeling better! But I wouldn’t expect you to recognize that. Sheesh, give me a break. I feel soooooo ooooolld. Not.

 

[brotherhrolf]

With all due respect, Brother H., I would have to disagree. It is not that what you describe is NOT being Catholic, far from it. “Being Catholic” is simply lies is a far wider spectrum than this description. In it’s narrowest interpretation, “being Catholic” means being in communion with the Successor to Saint Peter, does it not, holding to the fullness of the Faith in union with him? Thus, many who have not experienced what you have experienced are still “being Catholic.” It seems to me that to define it as you have could potentially be as problematic as those who would arrogantly dismiss your appreciation for what has gone before while they “sing a New Church” into being (an idea I dislike as much as you do).

My friend (see boys and girls it is possible to disagree ), how in the name of Our Lord would a restoration of the EF threathen you? Do you honestly think that a restoration of the EF is going to threaten everything else? I don’t. I grew up with the EF - except it wasn’t extraordinary back then. I’m Irish too. :irish3: As we approach St. Patrick’s day I am more than cognizant that my ancestors had to go out to the hedge rows to particpate in the very same Mass I participated in back in the 50s.

No, I’m not supposed to remember that the Mass that I grew up with was not the Mass of my English, Irish, Scot, German and French ancestors. I GREW UP with that Mass and buried my grandmothers, grandfathers, great aunts and great uncles according to that Mass. I was 17 when we switched to the NO.
Am I supposed to just forget my heritage?

As a member of a cathedral choir for 25 years, am I supposed to not remember the years when we had to sing Holy Week from the 1940 Episcopalian hymnal because it was in English not Latin. Sing my tongue the Saviors glory is NOT Pange Lingua.

Face it folks, for better or worse, you have a large body of folks who remember what HMC church was like before 1969. We are not dead - not me or my uncle who is the last surviving relative of my mother’s generation. We are not dead yet. And we are the 600 lb. gorilla living in your backyard which you ignore.

 

[brotherhrolf]

The Catholic Church is the same all over the world in terms of faith and choice of missals to use (OF or EF).

Not according to you my friend, not according to you.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Not according to you my friend, not according to you.

I fully accept the MP as written and it is not a gimme for those who are ‘fond’ of the TLM.

 

[Indyann]

Why, yes, sonny, and I hope that you are treated as well as 56 as I have been. I’m not dead yet. I’m feeling better! But I wouldn’t expect you to recognize that. Sheesh, give me a break. I feel soooooo ooooolld. Not.

“Sonny”, I am older than you. Please show a lady some respect. But I wouldn’t expect someone as set in their ways to recognize that.

Thank God, I learned to move on from life’s disappointments and not to sit about yearning for the past.

Sheesh, give me a break too. I do feel sooooo oooold physically, but not mentally.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

“Sonny”, I am older than you. Please show a lady some respect. But I wouldn’t expect someone as set in their ways to recognize that.

Thank God, I learned to move on from life’s disappointments and not to sit about yearning for the past.

Sheesh, give me a break too. I do feel sooooo oooold physically, but not mentally.

:bowdown2: :bowdown:
:bowdown2: :bowdown:
:bowdown2: :bowdown:

 

[Patrick_Eastin]

“Sonny”, I am older than you. Please show a lady some respect. But I wouldn’t expect someone as set in their ways to recognize that.

Thank God, I learned to move on from life’s disappointments and not to sit about yearning for the past.

Sheesh, give me a break too. I do feel sooooo oooold physically, but not mentally.

And would that have been directed to you Indyann when I know good and well that if I’m not deat yet at 56, perforce there must be a whole buncha us who are not dead yet?

I am NOT going to give up yearning for the past. I’ve sung in a cathedral choir for the last 25 years. We still know how to sing chant and motets. We could take it to the next level so easily. Unfortunately we have a bishop who merely “acknowledges” the MP. The priest is there, the choir is there…Solemn High Mass in Latin - wouldn’t have to be every week just the big holy days - Easter and the like. I like, really like being Catholic.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

My friend (see boys and girls it is possible to disagree ), how in the name of Our Lord would a restoration of the EF threathen you? Do you honestly think that a restoration of the EF is going to threaten everything else? I don’t. I grew up with the EF - except it wasn’t extraordinary back then. I’m Irish too. :irish3: As we approach St. Patrick’s day I am more than cognizant that my ancestors had to go out to the hedge rows to particpate in the very same Mass I participated in back in the 50s.

**Again with respect, my brother in Christ, on a couple of points, I don’t view the restoration of the EF as a threat to me at all. It is an ancient, venerable Mass, worthy of my respct and reverence. The fact that I prefer the Mass to be in the vernacular does not detract from my regard for It. Indeed, I anticipate that there will be a “backward” retrenchment of the OF drawing on the treasures of the EF and that we may well one day be able to hear the EF completely in the vernacular (which I realize strikes horror in the hearts of some) and that further, we will one day have again, basically, one rite in our Rite, celebrated in both Latin and the vernacular. Also, you speak as if the restoration of the EF is in the future. The EF HAS been restored. It may not be fully implemented everywhere because there may be insufficient desire for it. To put it somewhat crudely, market forces may well be dictating and may well continue to dictate that the EF will always be extraordinary. And that’s the rub between the camps, I think: there are “traditionalists” who assume that those of us who aren’t begging for the EF are less fervent or less faithful or less whatever. I’m a wretched sinner before God, entirely dependent on His Mercy and Grace. I am also a thoughtful, a thinking Catholic who loves the Church, who pays attention to Her teaching, who endeavors to think with the mind of the Church, and who constantly prays for a deeper conversion to Christ, for a deeper conformation to His Image. Yet I don’t want to go to attend the EF, given the choice between the forms. **

No, I’m not supposed to remember that the Mass that I grew up with was not the Mass of my English, Irish, Scot, German and French ancestors. I GREW UP with that Mass and buried my grandmothers, grandfathers, great aunts and great uncles according to that Mass. I was 17 when we switched to the NO.
Am I supposed to just forget my heritage? **Absolutely not, and I would no where intimate that you should. **

As a member of a cathedral choir for 25 years, am I supposed to not remember the years when we had to sing Holy Week from the 1940 Episcopalian hymnal because it was in English not Latin. Sing my tongue the Saviors glory is NOT Pange Lingua.
**No, but “sing my tongue the Savior’s Glory” is no less Catholic. **

Face it folks, for better or worse, you have a large body of folks who remember what HMC church was like before 1969. We are not dead - not me or my uncle who is the last surviving relative of my mother’s generation. We are not dead yet. And we are the 600 lb. gorilla living in your backyard which you ignore.

**And you have a large body of YOUR contemporaries who actually LIKED the changes…some even liked what you and I would think are the egregious ones! It does not prove a point about what is or is not “Catholic.” I don’t like the way the sign of peace is done in most parishes or where it’s positioned in the Mass, but I would not presume to say it isn’t Catholic (and no matter what some would say here, it’s a lie to call it Protestant, the “reformers” would have been as appalled at the smootch fest as we are. That’s another thing I find a bit disturbing about some “traditionalists.” They apparently suffer no scrupples when it comes to including half-truths in their arguments, your good self aside). **

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

From his last statement, I took it to mean the universal Catholic Church as she once was, you used to be able to go into any Catholic Church in the world and it was all the same, we all spoke the same language, the same faith, the same exact mass. Children were raised learning latin, just as the Jews are/used to be taught hebrew… It’s not the same as it once was… Vatican II was never supposed to allow for the abolition of Latin, but whatever it did, the Latin has all but disappeared. It’s coming back though… and my children are going to know it.

That’s not actually true. There are Catholics who have never used Latin in their Masses. While most of the world has been evangelized by Roman Rite Catholics, it’s not the language of the liturgy that makes the Church universal.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

**And you have a large body of YOUR contemporaries who actually LIKED the changes…some even liked what you and I would think are the egregious ones! It does not prove a point about what is or is not “Catholic.” I don’t like the way the sign of peace is done in most parishes or where it’s positioned in the Mass, but I would not presume to say it isn’t Catholic (and no matter what some would say here, it’s a lie to call it Protestant, the “reformers” would have been as appalled at the smootch fest as we are. That’s another thing I find a bit disturbing about some “traditionalists.” They apparently suffer no scrupples when it comes to including half-truths in their arguments, your good self aside). **

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[JKirkLVNV]

From his last statement, I took it to mean the universal Catholic Church as she once was, you used to be able to go into any Catholic Church in the world and it was all the same, we all spoke the same language, the same faith, the same exact mass. Children were raised learning latin, just as the Jews are/used to be taught hebrew… It’s not the same as it once was… Vatican II was never supposed to allow for the abolition of Latin, but whatever it did, the Latin has all but disappeared. It’s coming back though… and my children are going to know it.

Just to clarify, the vernacular Mass exists because it was permitted by the proper and competant authority, that of the Holy See. Pope Paul VI permitted bishops’ conferences to determine to what extent the vernacular would be used, ratifying each and every conference’s decision. He could have refused any and all, but permitted the Mass to be completely in the vernacular. It isn’t an aberration.