My talk with a Mormon

[Sabacthani]

They are both equally horrific, at their base they are one and the same.

Seriously?

One person opines that abortion is a serious sin but not actually murder, while the other one believes that abortion is murder, and gets abortions periodically. And you say that they are **equal **in sinning?

It seems to me that equation puts way too much emphasis on opinion and too little value on human life. I’m sorry, but having a wrong opinion is not as seriously as infanticide.

 

[Sabacthani]

"What’s worse in your eyes, believing that abortion is not always murder, or actually having an abortion?

Mormons have fewer abortions, and proportionately fewer.

What’s more important to you, actually reducing the numbers of abortion or having people who get them shamed from the pulpit?"

Why are you putting words in my mouth (or on my keyboard since this is the internet)?

Please show me where I stated that a belief is more sinful than an action or that public shaming is better than quietly working to reduce the numbers of abortions.

Why are you putting words in my mouth/keyboard? Please show me where I said that you stated that a belief is more sinful than an action? I asked for your opinion.

I suspect that LDS doctrine on families has to do with why there are much fewer abortions among the church members.

“Well said!”

I didn’t think so. I certainly didn’t come to this site for abortion homor.

 

[Sabacthani]

However, I witnessed plenty of public shaming in the LDS church, including an LDS bishop telling a friend that she could not be forgiven of fornication unless she put her baby up for adoption.

I agree that’s horribly inappropriate for a bishop to talk about in public, not to mention doctrinally incorrect. What was the public context? Church meeting?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Seriously?

One person opines that abortion is a serious sin but not actually murder, while the other one believes that abortion is murder, and gets abortions periodically. And you say that they are **equal **in sinning?

It seems to me that equation puts way too much emphasis on opinion and too little value on human life. I’m sorry, but having a wrong opinion is not as seriously as infanticide.

I highly doubt that a person who believes abortion is murder gets an abortion. Catholics who do not agree with Church teaching that abortion is murder, are the ones who get abortions.

The other sin is the sin of scandal.

newadvent.org/cathen/13506d.htm

I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t hold the view that scandal is equal to murder. But a Catholic who gets an abortion also is committing, or risking the committing, the sin of scandal.

 

[Stephen168]

Seriously?

One person opines that abortion is a serious sin but not actually murder, while the other one believes that abortion is murder, and gets abortions periodically. And you say that they are **equal **in sinning?

It seems to me that equation puts way too much emphasis on opinion and too little value on human life. I’m sorry, but having a wrong opinion is not as seriously as infanticide.

The Catholic Church has had zero abortions and teaches that murder is wrong all the time.
The Mormon Church has had zero abortions and teaches that murder can be OK.

Teaching that murder can be OK is worse than teaching that murder is always wrong.

 

[PaulDupre1]

The other big difference is in discussing a confession, a Mormon bishop is in no way ever required to keep a confession to himself, the LDS church leaves him at liberty to discuss it with who ever he feels may beneficial in the situation. If he discusses it with his counselors and his wife he will suffer no repercussions and anyone he discusses it with is under no obligation to keep it quiet either. In contrast a catholic priest can not ever disclose what was said in confession to anyone ever without severe repercussions to himself.

For more than three years, I was in a ward where the bishop’s wife was the worst gossip-monger in the ward (and probably the stake). She was always the first to spread the story of who was getting disfellowshipped or excommunicated and why, along with other salacious rumors***.

Most members knew that this bishop was indiscreet, so virtually no one went to him to confess. Usually the only people he had the opportunity to discipline were members whose behavior or vocal opinions were reported to him by another member. I know because I was his 2nd counselor and so attended the “courts of love” at the ward level. There was a huge difference in repentance between those who voluntarily confessed due to a crisis of conscience and those who were summoned to church court because they had been “ratted out”.

I believe that many of the betrayed, given the time to “stew in their own juices”, would have come to a sincere sorrow for their sins, but these poor sinners often became angry and separated themselves from their church, family and friends just when they needed them most.

As a Catholic, I have few if any illusions about my own righteousness; but I do know that true repentance is a slow, painful and very personal process that only culminates in confession when the sinner comes to that deep and dreadful sorrow that only comes to those who grow into it. Sometimes it takes a long time, sometimes not; but our revulsion to our own sin is one of the indicators of our progress and again is a very personal thing.

Mormons, like communists, often report one another to their leaders. It gets them brownie points, but it cuts off the opportunity for the sinner’s conscience to bring him/her to a willing, mature and self-actualized sorrow for- and loathing of their sins. In short, like Mormonism in general, it infantilizes the adult members by treating them like naughty children instead of adults on a path to spiritual maturity. I believe that is why the Mormons I know are so spiritually immature and self-deluding.

*** A good argument, IMHO, for priestly celibacy.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[zaffiroborant]

Seriously?

One person opines that abortion is a serious sin but not actually murder, while the other one believes that abortion is murder, and gets abortions periodically. And you say that they are **equal **in sinning?

It seems to me that equation puts way too much emphasis on opinion and too little value on human life. I’m sorry, but having a wrong opinion is not as seriously as infanticide.

I do not believe people who regard abortion as murder periodically get one. I believe those that get abortions, especially those who get them periodically, do not believe abortion is murder. As long as society teaches that abortion is not murder people will be comfortable about having an abortion. So yes the opinion does matter.

 

[Sabacthani]

I do not believe people who regard abortion as murder periodically get one. I believe those that get abortions, especially those who get them periodically, do not believe abortion is murder. As long as society teaches that abortion is not murder people will be comfortable about having an abortion. So yes the opinion does matter.

You’ve completely begged my question.

Look at the stats. The LDS church teaches that Abortion is a sin, but not “murder.” And yet mormons, by population, have notably fewer abortions than Catholics.

I understand you believe that belief is important. But is it actually more important than human life?

 

[Sabacthani]

For more than three years, I was in a ward where the bishop’s wife was the worst gossip-monger in the ward (and probably the stake). She was always the first to spread the story of who was getting disfellowshipped or excommunicated and why, along with other salacious rumors***.

Most members knew that this bishop was indiscreet, so virtually no one went to him to confess. Usually the only people he had the opportunity to discipline were members whose behavior or vocal opinions were reported to him by another member. I know because I was his 2nd counselor and so attended the “courts of love” at the ward level. There was a huge difference in repentance between those who voluntarily confessed due to a crisis of conscience and those who were summoned to church court because they had been “ratted out”.

I believe that many of the betrayed, given the time to “stew in their own juices”, would have come to a sincere sorrow for their sins, but these poor sinners often became angry and separated themselves from their church, family and friends just when they needed them most.

As a Catholic, I have few if any illusions about my own righteousness; but I do know that true repentance is a slow, painful and very personal process that only culminates in confession when the sinner comes to that deep and dreadful sorrow that only comes to those who grow into it. Sometimes it takes a long time, sometimes not; but our revulsion to our own sin is one of the indicators of our progress and again is a very personal thing.

Mormons, like communists, often report one another to their leaders. It gets them brownie points, but it cuts off the opportunity for the sinner’s conscience to bring him/her to a willing, mature and self-actualized sorrow for- and loathing of their sins. In short, like Mormonism in general, it infantilizes the adult members by treating them like naughty children instead of adults on a path to spiritual maturity. I believe that is why the Mormons I know are so spiritually immature and self-deluding.

*** A good argument, IMHO, for priestly celibacy.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

That’s actually a very strong argument, Paul. Thank you. I agree that mormon domestic tongue-wagging is a problem. I’m not certain that it’s tied to marriage specifically, but I can understand why one might honestly believe that it was.

 

[iepuras]

You’ve completely begged my question.

Look at the stats. The LDS church teaches that Abortion is a sin, but not “murder.” And yet mormons, by population, have notably fewer abortions than Catholics.

I understand you believe that belief is important. But is it actually more important than human life?

What kind of sin is abortion if it is not murder? Which of the 10 commandments would you say it falls under?

Belief is important because it ultimately affects and influences decisions one makes. A belief that abortion is not murder can influence someone to pay for an abortion or vote for politicians who pass permissive abortion laws. Belief rarely exists in a vacuum.

The LDS church deems human life conceived as a result of rape and incest less deserving of protection than other human life. The Catholic Church is consistent in her teaching regardless of whether or not baptized Catholics follow that teaching.

 

[Sabacthani]

You are still begging the question.

Do you believe that the LDS belief that abortion is sinful but not murder, is so horrible, that the fact that Mormon women actually have fewer abortions, isn’t even worth mentioning? Are correct beliefs really that much more important than absence of blood on one’s hands?

 

[Stephen168]

You are still begging the question.

Do you believe that the LDS belief that abortion is sinful but not murder, is so horrible, that the fact that Mormon women actually have fewer abortions, isn’t even worth mentioning? Are correct beliefs really that much more important than absence of blood on one’s hands?

Specifically, What is the question that is being begged?

 

[iepuras]

You are still begging the question.

Do you believe that the LDS belief that abortion is sinful but not murder, is so horrible, that the fact that Mormon women actually have fewer abortions, isn’t even worth mentioning? Are correct beliefs really that much more important than absence of blood on one’s hands?

And your questions in this thread are full of false dichotomies.

So how is there blood on the hands of the Catholic Church if someone who was baptized Catholic procures an abortion against the explicit teachings of the Catholic Church?

It is horrible that the LDS church teaches that it is ok to abort a baby because of who his father is. There are babies that are aborted as a direct result of this belief.

Honestly, I don’t understand how you can say that abortion is sinful but not murder. If abortion is not murder, than what is it? Again, which of the 10 commandments is one breaking when procuring an abortion?

 

[sallybutler]

On the subject of confession: If an LDS member confesses something illegal to his or her bishop, will the bishop turn him into the authorities? Or is the bishop supposed to consider it privileged and not discuss it with anyone? If the former, why would anyone confess? If the latter, how is that different?

 

[PaulDupre1]

You’ve completely begged my question.

Look at the stats. The LDS church teaches that Abortion is a sin, but not “murder.” And yet mormons, by population, have notably fewer abortions than Catholics.

No, Mormons report notably fewer abortions than Catholics.

My sister (who is a TBM) was a labor-and-delivery R.N. for many years. She once told the family, with great sadness, that many, many young girls “in trouble” came to the hospital near SLC where she worked for 24 years (where all the doctors were LDS) to “solve their problem”.

The “problem” was, indeed, solved. Then the hospital record showed one of two things:

1. If the woman was married, she had a miscarriage.
2. If she was not married, she had an ovarian cyst removed.

The statistical curve on young LDS girls with ovarian cysts must be (literally) incredible.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[adawgj]

If your Mormon friend says the Bible is erroneous then why do all my Mormon friends have a bunch of Bible studies?

 

[iepuras]

On the subject of confession: If an LDS member confesses something illegal to his or her bishop, will the bishop turn him into the authorities? Or is the bishop supposed to consider it privileged and not discuss it with anyone? If the former, why would anyone confess? If the latter, how is that different?

It depends on the bishop. It is certainly not sinful for a bishop to tell a third party about a confession. I am not aware of many bishops actually turning in anyone to the police. It certainly could happen, especially in cases that involve sexual abuse, but I honestly don’t know how common it is.

It is not uncommon for a bishop to talk to a stake president or other ward leaders about something a person takes to the bishop to discuss privately. When I was LDS, I naively assumed that the bishop was not allowed to divulge anything discussed in his office, but that is not the case.

People confess because they feel guilty or they get ratted out by others. When a Mormon confesses to a bishop, there is no forgiveness of sin. Bishops can mete out penances in certain situations. For certain sins, it goes to the stake level for a disciplinary council where testimony is heard and a group of men decide on the punishment. Forgiveness comes later, sometimes much later, and is often at the whim of the bishop and when he decides the person has been punished enough for the Mormon Heavenly Father to forgive.

 

[iepuras]

If your Mormon friend says the Bible is erroneous then why do all my Mormon friends have a bunch of Bible studies?

They spend more time studying the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. In high school, Mormon teens attend “seminary” which is basically a scripture study class. They spend one year each on the Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants. In college, similar classes are held known as “Institute”.

Their Article of Faith that deals with the Bible states, “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.”

If there is a Mormon doctrine or belief that is contradicted by the Bible, the Mormons will ignore it and simply state that is was changed by mistake or by evil design to lead people away from the “True Church” (the LDS church).

 

[Tarquin]

Another reason Mormons study a Bible they believe has been corrupted and leads people to hell:

“Cognitive dissonance” - holding two or more mutually contradictory beliefs or opinions. Such as that Adam knew what he was doing when he fell, and he did not know. Such as holding the prophet’s word is more important than the scriptures, and at the same time saying the prophet’s word is not more important than scriptures, but is in fact delimited and restricted by them. Such as saying that the final decision regarding one’s status in the hereafter is not fixed until death or afterwards, and at the same time saying that the second anointing makes one’s calling and election “sure”. Such as saying that our God is the only God with whom we have to do, and “families are forever”; and then saying God had a God but we aren’t supposed to have anything to do with him or his God and so on and son on, or his brothers and sisters (our uncles and aunts) or our cousins and nephews and nieces…

 

[Porknpie]

They spend more time studying the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. In high school, Mormon teens attend “seminary” which is basically a scripture study class. They spend one year each on the Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants. In college, similar classes are held known as “Institute”.

Their Article of Faith that deals with the Bible states, “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.”

If there is a Mormon doctrine or belief that is contradicted by the Bible, the Mormons will ignore it and simply state that is was changed by mistake or by evil design to lead people away from the “True Church” (the LDS church).

So how do Mormons now explain away that the Book of Abraham papyri is from an Egyptian funeral text?

PnP