My Thoughts on Islam...

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I make no bones about it being a ‘blogspot’; people can make of that what they will. I’ve given you classic Islamic opinion, modern Islamic opinion, and ‘opinion’. If I wished deception I’d not have linked it for you to check up on.
“snake oil salesman” is not an authority on Islam-so I see no reason why his analysis of some text he pulled up on the internet should be considered even remotely convincing.

It’s odd that you can find only articles arguing that the death penalty has more conditions than being an apostate alone, to support your claim that this is true, don’t you think?

The problem here isn’t the evidence. You simply do not want to admit that you are wrong, and that’s why you can’t make sense of what these good people are telling you.
 
I’m quoting this from Ibn Kathir’s Tafsir.
Abu Jafar Ar-Razi said that Ar-Rabi bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah commented on what God said:

“And fight in the way of God against those who fight you” (2:191)

Abu Al-`Aliyah said, "This was the first verse about fighting that was revealed in Madinah. Ever since it was revealed, God’s Messenger used to fight only those who fought him and avoid non-combatants. Later, Surat Bara’ah (Sura 9 in the Qur’an) was revealed.’’ Then he said that this was later abrogated by the verse:

then kill them wherever you find them” (9:5).
**
However, this statement is not plausible**, because God’s statement:

“…those who fight youapplies only to fighting the enemies who are actively engaged in fighting Islam and its people. So the verse means, `Fight those who fight you’, just as God said (in another verse):

“…and fight against the idolators collectively as they fight against you collectively.” (9:36)

This is why God said later in the verse:

“And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.” meaning, `Your energy should be spent on fighting them, just as their energy is spent on fighting you, and on expelling them from the areas from which they have expelled you, as a law of equality in punishment.’

God said:

but do not transgress the limits. Verily, God dislikes those who transgress.

This verse means, Fight for the sake of God, but do not be transgressors,' such as, by committing prohibitions. Al-Hasan **Al-Basri stated that transgression (indicated by the verse), "includes mutilating the dead, theft, killing women, children and old people and those who do not participate in warfare, killing priests and residents of houses of worship, burning down trees and killing animals without real benefit.''** This is also the opinion of Ibn Abbas, Umar bin Abdul-`Aziz, Muqatil bin Hayyan and others. Muslim recorded in his Sahih that Buraydah narrated that God’s Messenger said:

“Fight, but do not steal, commit treachery, mutilate, or kill a child, or those who reside in houses of worship.”

It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Ibn `Umar said, "A woman was found dead during one of the Prophet’s battles and the Prophet then forbade killing women and children. ‘’ There are many other Hadiths on this subject.
See? 9:5 doesn’t abrogate anything, nor does it warrant killing people just because they’re not Muslim.
 
“snake oil salesman” is not an authority on Islam-so I see no reason why his analysis of some text he pulled up on the internet should be considered even remotely convincing.
I don’t say it is an ‘authority’ Thanks for the straw-man. You only reply to bits selectively, where you think you can score-points. thus you ignore totally the ‘experts’ who agree with the premise that the majority of Islamic opinion favours killing Apostates.

Get back to me when you’re willing for a frank discussion.
 
There is compulsion in Islam. Muhammad killed apostates, and Muslims have been killing apostates for 14 centuries.

To claim that there is no compulsion in Islam is to insult the memory of those who were killed because they no longer wished to remain Muslims.

You are in fact, spitting on their graves.
 
There is compulsion in Islam. Muhammad killed apostates, and Muslims have been killing apostates for 14 centuries.

To claim that there is no compulsion in Islam is to insult the memory of those who were killed because they no longer wished to remain Muslims.

You are in fact, spitting on their graves.
My friend you are 100% wrong, I done care much where you get your facts and figures from unless it’s those who lived under Islamic Sharia and to prove my point, how did millions and millions of Africans, Americans, latinos, Far East Asians and Europeans and Middle Easterns become Muslims.

Furthermore, let’s ones and for all separate what so called Muslims do or their actions and Islam and it’s teachings.

I challenge you, if you produce one single proof from our Islam itself not what few Anti Islam despots wrote and the lies they spread on the net.

Go to Al Azhar or any Mujma Al Fiqh and review or search it’s archives, I would not apply the same logic and reasoning towards the bible or Christianity to say the least on matter of voilance, but if you find one iota of fact from within the compounds of the Quran and Hadith that calls for anyone to be keeled without a lawful set of reasons then I will agree with you.

A friendly word of warning, I have been down this road with at least one member of this forum who is apparent favorite point of debating is to cut and paste few missrpresented, misquoted and misused versus of the Quran or Hadiths from here or there and particularly from Anti-Islam and Anti-Muslim sites.

to be fair to you, I would challenge if your source is based either your full knowledge of the Quran, The Tafseer, Hadiths or the Hadith Science and if that is not the case then, all I can say to you is, it’s your humble opinion and actually does not change nothing.

Point to ponder, If I decided to disprove a point or more say in the Bible (NT) then I should be looking into the confounds of the Bible, it’s scholarly and scientific knowledge objectively and without bias, otherwise, surely I would end up copying and repeating whatever lies and deception others said or wrote about the bible. The road to the truth is hard and long but seldom most of us make the journey.

Moreover, thanks for sharing it.
 
AbeOman,
Killing apostates is in the sharia. Muhammad did it according to the hadiths.

You are dancing on the graves of the millions who were persecuted and/or killed for apostatizing from Islam.
 
Just a reminder for the discussion.

Calling into question the value of the evidence which your opponent presents - with evidence to back up the claim is not trolling. It is part of debate.

With that said, try to remain on topic and within charitable discussion. I know these topics can become very heated.

Thanks for your cooperation.

God bless-

Rachel
 
Just a reminder for the discussion.

Calling into question the value of the evidence which your opponent presents - with evidence to back up the claim is not trolling. It is part of debate.

With that said, try to remain on topic and within charitable discussion. I know these topics can become very heated.

Thanks for your cooperation.

God bless-

Rachel
May your prayers for kindness, good and wellness be answered.

Please, keep an eye on us, sometimes one forgets his or her better judgement in a moment of anger and may say or do something they will regret later.

Thank you,
 
AbeOman,
Killing apostates is in the sharia. Muhammad did it according to the hadiths.

You are dancing on the graves of the millions who were persecuted and/or killed for apostatizing from Islam.
First, let’s not exaggerate and loose sight of what is true and what is not. moreover, in no certain terms, I consider what you said a discredit to Islam, I believe lots of so called Muslims are doing that just fine.

2- The law of Islam dictates that anyone who presents a clear, present and active danger against Muslims must be stoped, there is no second guessing in this, so if a Murtad raises an army or starts killing Muslims or taking what is theirs then the correct answer is “Death” by war, the sword, AK47 or dingo dingo, no matter…!

3- Can you present one single Ayah “verse” from the Quran that out-rightly and clearly states “kill whoever is a Murtad” anyone leading the way becomes a Murtad…? No you can and please let me advice you on one thing, The Quran does not contradict itself, rather it clearly explains itself, the basic presentation of the Quran is clarity no ambiguity or No ill defined versus are found in the Quran, so keeping in mind, that I’m talking about the original Quran not the translations of the meanings of the Quran done by men in so many languages.

4- There are different school of thoughts in Islam and each school has it’s own way of dealing with Ridah, now I can not vouch for what"s practised in certain islamic countries in respect to their interpretations of the hadiths or the version of Sharia Law they apply, for instance, but you will not find anywhere in the Quran instructions clearly or indirectly implying “Commit suicide” or take your own life to kill and mime innocent civilians, or mass killing of innocent folks, just like 9/11. if it was against army in war then I know it’s allowed, but what some so called Muslims do, well as you know they do quite the opposite and you will always see the person who is crying out is indoctronated through hate, other ambitions and always is someone who is not well educated, young or very underprivileged in his or her life.

Sure, exteremism has different facets and un denying we have plenty of sickos are as much happy in killing fellow Muslims as none Muslims. if I’m not mistaken so does other religions or political movements.

4- What I object to is what you present and clearly lack of Quranic or Hadith evidance to backup your claims or basic knowledge of Quran and the Hadiths. No hold on before you rush to your own conclusions and run to Google, yes, you can find plenty of sites out there on the net that will give you whole lots of fall evidences and twisted quotes for reasons I’m going into, but the simple question that you have to ask yourself is how much do you know what you are copying, how much do you understand the intentions of folks who put it up there and for what purpose, why it’s so and so on so forth.

5- I have discussed this issue with Montalban in very tiresome manor and till exhaustion and without any meaningful conclusion. so may best and sincerist suggestion is that you separate your feelings toward Islam and Muslims and your knowledge about it. because I can deabte you on the merits of what you know and not how you feel about it.

6- If you ever come a cross a Muslim on this Forum or another Forum who makes false or untrue claims or insults Christianity or catholicism or any other faith, tell him he or she is a lost Muslim and he or she actually does not much about his or her own religion.

to conclude, I strongly object to your false accusations and if you care to share with all reader some facts to back your claims up, then do so, otherwise, let no ill feelings come between us.

I leave you in peace,
 
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