My Thoughts on Islam...

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Reading through this thread has left me with mixed feelings. But it’s re-affirmed the position I’ve always held: Islam is not going away anytime soon. In fact, it’s probably coming toward us sooner than later. And I think it will be a bloody approach on the part of radical Islam too.

I personally think the recent letter sent by the 130 Muslim scholars is actually a borderline threat, something like a cautionary note. It seems to be attempting to control the dialogue in their favor toward their version of the “oneness of God”. And it also seems to be sent in the same spirit that Muhammad had sent before he attacked. I think this is true with the letter sent to Bush as well. In other words, I think they’re giving us a warning.

Now, as some might know, I’ve actually been very sympathetic toward Islam over the years. I’ve posted on here many times attempting to get a balanced discussion between Catholics and Muslims. But my sympathy only goes so far, And it seems, for the most part anyway, to be a waste of time.

Often I hear some speaking of the silence of Muslims around the world when attrocities occur under the name of radical Islam. I’ve also heard some say that their refusal to speak out against the extremists within their own religion indicates that they approve of these attrocities.

Oddly enough, this is the exact same accusation that’s often been railed against our own blessed Pope Pius XII during the Nazi holocaust. Yet, as Rabbi David G. Dalin points out, this is simply not true. In fact, their contention, “fails to consider the brutal realities in the wake of Nazism, as well as the retaliatory consequences sure to follow any condemnatory action.” In other words, more stringent protests, or denunciations, on the part of the Vatican might have quite possibly have backfired.
Rabbi David G. Dalin:
An example frequently cited by defenders of the Vatican is the public protest of Dutch bishops in July 1942 against the deportation of Dutch Jews from the Netherlands. When Pius XII first learned of the Nazi atrocities in Poland, he urged the Catholic bishops of Europe to do all they could to save the Jews and other victims of Nazi persecution. The bishops of Holland distributed a pastoral letter that was read in every Catholic Church in the country, denouncing “the unmerciful and unjust treatment meted out to Jews by those in power in our country.” In no other Nazi-occupied country did local Catholic bishops more furiously resist Nazism than in Holland. But, their well-intentioned pastoral letter—which explicitly declared that they were inspired by Pope Pius XII —backfired. As Pinchas Lapide notes: “The saddest and most thought-provoking conclusion is that whilst the Catholic clergy in Holland protested more loudly, expressly and frequently against Jewish persecutions than the religious hierarchy of any other Nazi-occupied country, more Jews—some 110,000 or 79 percent of the total—were deported from Holland to death camps.” The protest of the Dutch bishops thus provoked the most savage of Nazi reprisals: The vast majority of Holland’s Jews—and the highest percentages of Jews of any Nazi-occupied nation in Western Europe—were deported and killed.
Clearly, when our Pope actually was silent on this matter (because he did speak out prudently at times), it wasn’t because he “approved” of the Holocaust as many anti-Catholic morons often claim. It was because he was gifted by God to use his gifts as the leader of the Catholic faith-- in this case the Cardinal Virtue known as Prudence.

It remains possible the moderate Muslims are likewise silent out of prudence too-- due to the threat of their lives being ended by their radical counterparts.
 
Having said this, I have to admit that I’m not seeing much prudence on either side of these kinds of debates, which is quite sad since I was expecting better here.

For example, I don’t see any principles as outlined from His Eminence Cardinal Francis Arinze being used when discussing matters of faith. His book Meeting Other Believers: The Risks and Rewards of Interreligious Dialogue (1998) should be considered required reading for these kinds of discussions. It’s contains much prudence as gifted by God, something which I’m probably not actually using right now either. I guess I’m just fed up with these kinds of stupid arguments that never seem to accomplish much of anything.

Now I’ve also heard many claim that terrorist attacks such as 911 seem to speak in toto for the main mentality of the entire body of Islam. But I don’t think this is true either. In fact, I know it’s not. The happenings of radical Muslims on 911 no more speak for all of Islam then Timothy James McVeigh’s actions toward the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building speak for our Catholic faith in which he was raised. Timothy James McVeigh’s actions actually blasphemed our Catholic faith.

Now, when one fairly contrasts Christianity with Islam, there are some parallels. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day. But these parallels only go so far. And, when one contrasts the two religions, it is clear in my mind that Islam is by far the more violent of the two religions.

Christianity is built on the divine love of the God Man Jesus Christ who died, was buried, and was resurrected. When radical violence did occur beyond what a just war would permit, it really was clearly against the Lord’s teachings. The New Testament is a New Testament in Christ.

Islam, however, is built on the geopolitical aspirations of a mortal man inspired by something of which I’m not actually sure. Certainly God is truly and genuinely involved. Woship of God is truly happening. But when violence occurs within Islam it’s really not that hard to see where they get their ideas from. Islam appears to be a retrofit attempting to rediscover the successes of Israel under the leadership of Joshua,

And while it’s clear that both religions worship the same God, because both Catholic theologians and Muslim theologians affirm this, it is also quite clear that both religions do not perceive God the same way. Clearly, assuming one or the other is the true faith, that one true faith is not Islam. The true faith is Christianity. More specifically, as far as I believe, the true faith is Catholicism. That’s where I belong anyway.

Nonetheless, I do think that the more radical Muslims are, in general, getting quite violent about things. So now, when I hear of this letter submitted by these 130 Muslim scholars, I would like to think this is true. In my heart I hope this to be true. But I don’t really see it. If they want dialogue then they can start allowing Christians on a large scale to enter into their lands unpersecuted in order to discuss these things more clearly. Until I see this kind of change I’m not really believing this offer.

Nonetheless, much like how Jesus offered the Eucharist to Judas knowing full well that he was going to be betrayed, I think we’re going to have to at least offer some dialogue regarding peace in the hopes that their efforts are truly authentic. The early church of the first three centuries did not survive due to military might. The early Church survived because she loved much. And if we are to truly convert Muslims to the Catholic faith, then we need to be more like St. Francis of Assissi who actually went to their lands knowing full well they might kill him. Tertullian was 100% correct when he said that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.

I hope we can remember that again someday. I know I’m hoping to recover this too-- because it’s really hard sometimes. But we really do rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also really do rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
 
I think it is a long stretch to conclude that the letters read in church in HOlland had anything to do with 70% of the Jews, most of which were refugees from Germany, being deported and murdered.

Hitler did not invade Holland, a neutral country, because of anything the Pope did. And it was the invasion, and Hitler’s subsequent impostion of German rule of the local gov’t, (as opposed to allowing Holland to continue to govern under German supervision), that made it one of the most dangerous places for Jews.

Additionally, Hitler had plans to annex Holland as part of Germany, largely in part because most of HOlland was “100% Arayan”. So he was perhaps even more motivated to murder all the Jews here than in other countries.
 
I think it is a long stretch to conclude that the letters read in church in HOlland had anything to do with 70% of the Jews, most of which were refugees from Germany, being deported and murdered.
Well, I gues you’re entitle to your opinion Valke. I disagree though. Apparently Rabbi David G. Dalin disagrees with you too.
Hitler did not invade Holland, a neutral country, because of anything the Pope did.
This is your opinion Valke. While I thank you for sharing it, I do disagree with it.
And it was the invasion, and Hitler’s subsequent impostion of German rule of the local gov’t, (as opposed to allowing Holland to continue to govern under German supervision), that made it one of the most dangerous places for Jews.
There’s no doubt that these were factors.

However, the Catholic faith resisted the Nazis most forcefully in this area. And it’s a historical fact that in no other Nazi-occupied country did local Catholic bishops more furiously resist Nazism than in Holland. If you have documentation which refutes this position of the Catholic faith, I suppose you’re welcome to share this.

Then again, I’ve read most of the counter-claims and find them lacking to be honest. So, I suppose, if you disagree with this claim, then you can certainly discuss it further with people like Rabbi David G. Dalin and others who hold this same view. As far as I’m concerned, it’s fairly well settled and I’m not really interested in debating this part.
Additionally, Hitler had plans to annex Holland as part of Germany, largely in part because most of HOlland was “100% Arayan”. So he was perhaps even more motivated to murder all the Jews here than in other countries.
Perhaps?

Actually, Hitler had long-range plans to annex the entire world into the reign of Nazi Germany Valke. He was stopped before this could become a reality. If he had succeeded, he would have murdered everyone who stood in his way, much like the Muslim extremists plan on doing to non-Muslims in their quest for world domination.

See, I’m not concerned about any foolish conspiracy theories that say there is some ‘secret Jewish society’ out to control the world. It’s total **** what some people claim against Jewish people. Judaism poses no threat to me here in North America and is a non-issue as far as I’m concerned. But I am concerned about the radical aspects of Islam, something vile which certainly is spreading rabidly and violenly throughout the world.

This thread is about Islam, not Judiasm. And it’s going to get worse before it gets batter as far as I’m concerned.
 
Having said this, I have to admit that I’m not seeing much prudence on either side of these kinds of debates, which is quite sad since I was expecting better here.

For example, I don’t see any principles as outlined from His Eminence Cardinal Francis Arinze being used when discussing matters of faith. His book Meeting Other Believers: The Risks and Rewards of Interreligious Dialogue (1998) should be considered required reading for these kinds of discussions. It’s contains much prudence as gifted by God, something which I’m probably not actually using right now either. I guess I’m just fed up with these kinds of stupid arguments that never seem to accomplish much of anything.

Now I’ve also heard many claim that terrorist attacks such as 911 seem to speak in toto for the main mentality of the entire body of Islam. But I don’t think this is true either. In fact, I know it’s not. The happenings of radical Muslims on 911 no more speak for all of Islam then Timothy James McVeigh’s actions toward the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building speak for our Catholic faith in which he was raised. Timothy James McVeigh’s actions actually blasphemed our Catholic faith.

Now, when one fairly contrasts Christianity with Islam, there are some parallels. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day. But these parallels only go so far. And, when one contrasts the two religions, it is clear in my mind that Islam is by far the more violent of the two religions.

Christianity is built on the divine love of the God Man Jesus Christ who died, was buried, and was resurrected. When radical violence did occur beyond what a just war would permit, it really was clearly against the Lord’s teachings. The New Testament is a New Testament in Christ.

Islam, however, is built on the geopolitical aspirations of a mortal man inspired by something of which I’m not actually sure. Certainly God is truly and genuinely involved. Woship of God is truly happening. But when violence occurs within Islam it’s really not that hard to see where they get their ideas from. Islam appears to be a retrofit attempting to rediscover the successes of Israel under the leadership of Joshua,

And while it’s clear that both religions worship the same God, because both Catholic theologians and Muslim theologians affirm this, it is also quite clear that both religions do not perceive God the same way. Clearly, assuming one or the other is the true faith, that one true faith is not Islam. The true faith is Christianity. More specifically, as far as I believe, the true faith is Catholicism. That’s where I belong anyway.

Nonetheless, I do think that the more radical Muslims are, in general, getting quite violent about things. So now, when I hear of this letter submitted by these 130 Muslim scholars, I would like to think this is true. In my heart I hope this to be true. But I don’t really see it. If they want dialogue then they can start allowing Christians on a large scale to enter into their lands unpersecuted in order to discuss these things more clearly. Until I see this kind of change I’m not really believing this offer.

Nonetheless, much like how Jesus offered the Eucharist to Judas knowing full well that he was going to be betrayed, I think we’re going to have to at least offer some dialogue regarding peace in the hopes that their efforts are truly authentic. The early church of the first three centuries did not survive due to military might. The early Church survived because she loved much. And if we are to truly convert Muslims to the Catholic faith, then we need to be more like St. Francis of Assissi who actually went to their lands knowing full well they might kill him. Tertullian was 100% correct when he said that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.

I hope we can remember that again someday. I know I’m hoping to recover this too-- because it’s really hard sometimes. But we really do rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also really do rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
The Muslims(Islam ) believe in the Blessed Virgin Mary but they do not have a Father.

D.
 
The Muslims(Islam ) believe in the Blessed Virgin Mary but they do not have a Father.

D.
Do you think this is why Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran?

I am honestly puzzled by his actions concerning this. The only thing I can think of is that he was reaching out to Muslims by granting a holy kiss to the Virgin Mother of God contained within their sacred texts.
 
My dear friend, I honestly don’t from where to start, so let me give you some historical prospective and comparatives on both religions.

First, Christianity and Islam are the two largest religions in the world and they have many points of contact. Both inherited from Judaism a belief in one God who created the world and cares about the behavior and beliefs of human beings.

The Prophet Muhammad knew Christians in his lifetime and respected them along with Jews as “People of the Book.” Because of their monotheism and roots in the revealed Jewish Bible, the Prophet and his successors extended conquered Christians (and Jews) more freedoms than conquered pagans.
In the approximately 1,300 years of history since the life of the Prophet, the relationship between Christianity and Islam has rarely been harmonious. As it spread, the Muslim Empire quickly conquered much of the Judeo-Christian Holy Land and the Christian Byzantine Empire. The Christian Crusades of the 11th through 13th centuries, waged in large part against Muslims, served only to widen the divide between the two faiths. Constantinople, the “New Rome” and the center of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, fell to the Turks in 1453 and has lived under Islamic rule ever since.

In recent centuries, mutual distrust between Christians and Muslims has continued to grow. On the other hand, some have pointed out that the conflict has more to do with political tensions and divergent cultural worldviews than with religion, and efforts have been made by both Christians and Muslims to find common ground and engage in respectful dialogue.

Second, I will illustrate the similarities and differences between the two largest religions of the world, however, this has to wait till i comeback from my prayers,

and i shall a prayer for all us for a better understanding and good fortunes in this life and the life-after,

Till then, peace and have nice evening…🙂

P.S. meantime, you could join my discussion with George under next thread…dealing with Islam and extremism. Thanks
 
Do you think this is why Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran?

I am honestly puzzled by his actions concerning this. The only thing I can think of is that he was reaching out to Muslims by granting a holy kiss to the Virgin Mother of God contained within their sacred texts.
My dear friend, I’m Muslim (Thanks God), you have good and valid points but i sense some sort of despair in your undefined relationship with Muslims or Islam. am I wrong?

First and formost, I could not access the post that you initiated with your topic, however, the title of your post is “My thoughts of Islam” but I only see thoughts related to what some Muslims did or do and what the fast majority did or did not do on a specific topic…“Extremism”. at this point, would gladly invite you to read my exchanges with another gentleman in another post on this thread, perhaps that will clarify to you about few things that you have mentioned in your post.

Let me express my thoughts on the post and to inform you that I welcome points of view with an open mind and heart.

We need to understand each other and not to antagonise one another, no matter what, said that i believe some of your comments are not substantiated by hard facts or valid arguments backed by hard facts and that does not mean i don’t respect but i would like to see more flesh on the borne then mere critique.

Islam and Muslim are somewhat two different things one is the faith and the other is those who follow the faith, so are we which one should we deal with first?

Once again, many thanks for your time and i hope this going to be a beneficial exchange of useful information among us all.

Peace:)
 
Do you think this is why Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran?

I am honestly puzzled by his actions concerning this. The only thing I can think of is that he was reaching out to Muslims by granting a holy kiss to the Virgin Mother of God contained within their sacred texts.
Yes and why did Islam want (him ?)to place a Holy kiss on their book?
I wonder what Pope Benedict XVI 's response would be.

D.
 
Yes and why did Islam want (him ?)to place a Holy kiss on their book?
I wonder what Pope Benedict XVI 's response would be.

D.
The man was kind and nice and he wanted to bring people togeather and show respect.

At least that is how we muslims see it.

He was a good man.

Meedo
 
The man was kind and nice and he wanted to bring people togeather and show respect.

At least that is how we muslims see it.

He was a good man.

Meedo
So who else have you had kiss your Holy book?
D.
 
what do u mean?
Who other digniteries or nice men have been invited to come so close to a peaceful reception and shaking of hands so to speak.
Who else has kissed your Koran book?
D.
 
The man was kind and nice and he wanted to bring people togeather and show respect.

At least that is how we muslims see it.

He was a good man.

Meedo
What did you like that he taught?

What do you agree with that he spoke?

What did he do that impressed you the most?
D.
 
AbeOman and meedo, I don’t actually have as much time as I would like to have these days. I have to admit that I’m not really sure if much difference can be made by discussing things. I’m willing to give it a try though.

Given the time, as a quick reference/starting point, I’d be more than happy to discuss perceived similarities and difference between Catholicism and Islam.

Do you feel this site explains things accurately?
 
AbeOman and meedo, I don’t actually have as much time as I would like to have these days. I have to admit that I’m not really sure if much difference can be made by discussing things. I’m willing to give it a try though.

Given the time, as a quick reference/starting point, I’d be more than happy to discuss perceived similarities and difference between Catholicism and Islam.

Do you feel this site explains things accurately?
**Yes, it is quite true, also this site shows some great similarities with couple of minor errors in Islam for instance, the only value of Imams is to lead prayers and there is no symbolism in in Islam so the crescent was an ottoman empire insignia and nothing to do with the Creed, religion.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/christianity_islam.htm

same site give you a comparison chart between Christianity and Judaism. religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/christianity_judaism.htm

Thanks for sharing the link,

Salaam.**
 
Yes, it is quite true, also this site shows some great similarities with couple of minor errors in Islam for instance, the only value of Imams is to lead prayers and there is no symbolism in in Islam so the crescent was an ottoman empire insignia and nothing to do with the Creed, religion.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/christianity_islam.htm

same site give you a comparison chart between Christianity and Judaism. religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/christianity_judaism.htm

Thanks for sharing the link,

Salaam.
AbeOman, thank you for replying.

I guess I’ll start with something that is commonly claimed against Islam: the perception that Muslims may lie in order to further the cause of Islam.

I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this matter and suggest this may be a misunderstanding on our part. I think this could be so.

Nonetheless, I have to ask you if this is true:

May a Muslim lie (speak falsehood) in order to further the cause of Islam?
 
AbeOman, thank you for replying.

I guess I’ll start with something that is commonly claimed against Islam: the perception that Muslims may lie in order to further the cause of Islam.

I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this matter and suggest this may be a misunderstanding on our part. I think this could be so.

Nonetheless, I have to ask you if this is true:

May a Muslim lie (speak falsehood) in order to further the cause of Islam?
**It’s ok to ask and I appreciate your question, thought this is a catholic forum I believe it’s ok to have few people from other faiths so we can bridge the gap, there is too much unnecessery anomocities and misunderstandings and whatever we do to minimize that is good.

Now your question, the simple answer is absolutely NO, the only time under the Islamic jurisprudence that one is allowed to lie is to safe his or her life if a lie could safe it, Let me explain, let’s say that you were caught by your enemies during wars and they force you to denounce your faith or something similar, then you can lie to them and tell them that you are not Muslim, since God Almighty already knows what is in your heart, but and this is important, you are not allowed to lie about something you did or an act that you knowingly committed or cried out whatever it may be.

Now, let us examine your question, first, how could someone lie to further Islam? does he or she say claim something Islam IS NOT, if that is the case then he or she lied to began with.

Does he or she presented a material that is not factual about Islam to further his cause, then he or she lied since the material is not TRUE of or in ISLAM.

Does he or she lied about acts he or she committed in the name of Islam, then natural he or she lied. example, Osama Bin Laden lied if he believes he killed all those innocent people because in the cause of Islam.

So as you can see it’s illogical to further Islam with lies, hence God Almighty has cursed in the Quran anyone who lies or who lied about something that holds to be true.

I hope my responses are clear and understandable, if not please let me.

Thanks again and God bless.**
 
The Prophet Muhammad knew Christians in his lifetime and respected them along with Jews as “People of the Book.” Because of their monotheism and roots in the revealed Jewish Bible, the Prophet and his successors extended conquered Christians (and Jews) more freedoms than conquered pagans.
He respected them so much he over-saw the massacre of an entire Jewish tribe (after they’d surrendered) (the Banu Qurayza)
In the approximately 1,300 years of history since the life of the Prophet, the relationship between Christianity and Islam has rarely been harmonious.
Starting with Islam’s unprovoked attack on Christendom
 
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