My Thoughts on Islam...

[Montalban]

We need to understand each other and not to antagonise one another, no matter what, said that i believe some of your comments are not substantiated by hard facts or valid arguments backed by hard facts and that does not mean i don’t respect but i would like to see more flesh on the borne then mere critique.

Starting with the status of Dhimmi, Islam established in law, enshrined it, so to speak, a system of legal discrimination against classes of people.

 

[Montalban]

Now your question, the simple answer is absolutely NO, the only time under the Islamic jurisprudence that one is allowed to lie is to safe his or her life if a lie could safe it,

That’s simply not the case where Muhammed himself allowed someone to lie, in order to murder someone else!

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said,** "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.”** Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369

 

[AbeOman]

That’s simply not the case where Muhammed himself allowed someone to lie, in order to murder someone else!

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said,** "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.”** Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369

**Hold on a second, let’s not be so hasty on quotes and let me know if you ever heard anything called “Tahrif” and also, have you checked the authenticity of the hadith through a silsilah.
moreover, what was the reason of the hadith in terms of qiyas.

To make a long story short and easy, there are hundrerds if not thousands of hadiths accorded to the Prophet that were not true just like the Apocryphal gospels in the bible.

One last thing, as Muslim my degree of judgement is based on the Quran and I have plenty of versus of Quran that will not allow me to just lie for anything.

I hope this clarifies it.

Thanks**

 

[AbeOman]

**Hold on a second, let’s not be so hasty on quotes and let me know if you ever heard anything called “Tahrif” and also, have you checked the authenticity of the hadith through a silsilah.
moreover, what was the reason of the hadith in terms of qiyas.

To make a long story short and easy, there are hundrerds if not thousands of hadiths accorded to the Prophet that were not true just like the Apocryphal gospels in the bible.

One last thing, as Muslim my degree of judgement is based on the Quran and I have plenty of versus of Quran that will not allow me to just lie for anything.

I hope this clarifies it.

Thanks**

Furthermore, in regard to lie in general and speaking of “lies”, it was narrated from the Prophet by Abdullah ibn Mas’ood that the Prophet (PBUH)said, ‘The speaking of lies leads one to immorality and immorality leads one to the fire of hell.’ (Bukhari, Hadith Saheeh)
This is the general rule regarding lies, however, the prophet (PBUH) has himself made the exception to the rule and whatever says is a revelation from God Almighty. He said, "Lies are only permitted in three instances, for a man to make his wife happy, in war and for reconciliation between people.’ (Tirmidhi).

I strongly suggest as a further reading for you that you take some time to read a chapter written by AL Bukhari titled, ‘Speaking a lie in war’. this chapter will explain the authenticity of the hadith, it’s qiyas or reasons and it’s permissibility.

Thanks once again,

 

[Montalban]

Hold on a second, let’s not be so hasty on quotes

I’m sorry you’re against evidence. Perhaps I should just give my opinion.

“Moslems are allowed to kill for their god”

There you go.

and let me know if you ever heard anything called “Tahrif” and also, have you checked the authenticity of the hadith through a silsilah.
moreover, what was the reason of the hadith in terms of qiyas.

Are you suggesting Muhammed didn’t allow this to happen? Another inaccurate Hadith?

To make a long story short and easy, there are hundrerds if not thousands of hadiths accorded to the Prophet that were not true just like the Apocryphal gospels in the bible.

This is from the most ‘reliable’ collection; Bukhari

One last thing, as Muslim my degree of judgement is based on the Quran and I have plenty of versus of Quran that will not allow me to just lie for anything.

Such as? The Hadith is used to see how to *apply *the Koran because it shows it at work in the early Moslem community - it shows it in a social context.

I hope this clarifies it.

Not one bit. All you’ve done is suggest it just isn’t true.

 

[Montalban]

Furthermore, in regard to lie in general and speaking of “lies”, it was narrated from the Prophet by Abdullah ibn Mas’ood that the Prophet (PBUH)said, ‘The speaking of lies leads one to immorality and immorality leads one to the fire of hell.’ (Bukhari, Hadith Saheeh)

But that’s lies for its own sake. It’s like killing. You’re not meant to kill, per se, but if it’s for ‘the cause’, then it’s fine.

Thus there’s the ‘general’ rule…
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 32:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "The signs of a hypocrite are three:

1. Whenever he speaks, he tells a lie.
2. Whenever he promises, he always breaks it (his promise ).
3. If you trust him, he proves to be dishonest. (If you keep something as a trust with him, he will not return it.)"
   usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.032
   and at
   Volume 3, Book 48, Number 847
   Volume 4, Book 51, Number 12
   Volume 4, Book 53, Number 403
   Volume 2, Book 23, Number 378
   Volume 4, Book 56, Number 667
   and so on
   And the exceptions you add to below

This is the general rule regarding lies, however, the prophet has himself made the exception to the rule and whatever says is a revelation from God Almighty. He said, "Lies are only permitted in three instances, for a man to make his wife happy, in war and for reconciliation between people.’ (Tirmidhi).

Which is evidence you provide in support of me!

I strongly suggest as a further reading for you that you take some time to read a chapter written by AL Bukhari titled, ‘Speaking a lie in war’. this chapter will explain the authenticity of the hadith, it’s qiyas or reasons and it’s permissibility.

Where have I said that this isn’t the case? I said Muhammed allowed people to lie. And gave an example. You retort with a ‘general’ rule on lying and then provide yourself with exceptions to that rule.

Islam is a religion of rules with exceptions for expediency. Christianity is not.

When we’re surrounded by *wolves *who seek to attack us because of our faith, we’re asked to stand firm. You’re permitted to *weasel *your way out of it.

Muhammed was adamant that people could not lie against him!
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 106:

Narrated 'Ali:

The Prophet said, “Do not tell a lie against me for whoever tells a lie against me (intentionally) then he will surely enter the Hell-fire.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/003.sbt.html#001.003.106

Also
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 107
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 108
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 110
and so on

But lying for him, that’s different. Lying for your god is too, here’s more…

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 577:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Abraham did not tell a lie except on three occasions.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/055.sbt.html#004.055.546
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 578:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Abraham did not tell a lie except on three occasion. Twice for the Sake of Allah when he said, “I am sick,” and he said, “(I have not done this but) the big idol has done it.” The (third was) that while Abraham and Sarah (his wife) were going (on a journey) they passed by (the territory of) a tyrant. Someone said to the tyrant, “This man (i.e. Abraham) is accompanied by a very charming lady.” So, he sent for Abraham and asked him about Sarah saying, “Who is this lady?” Abraham said, “She is my sister.” Abraham went to Sarah and said, “O Sarah! There are no believers on the surface of the earth except you and I. This man asked me about you and I have told him that you are my sister, so don’t contradict my statement.” The tyrant then called Sarah and when she went to him, he tried to take hold of her with his hand, but (his hand got stiff and) he was confounded. He asked Sarah. “Pray to Allah for me, and I shall not harm you.” So Sarah asked Allah to cure him and he got cured. He tried to take hold of her for the second time, but (his hand got as stiff as or stiffer than before and) was more confounded. He again requested Sarah, “Pray to Allah for me, and I will not harm you.” Sarah asked Allah again and he became alright. He then called one of his guards (who had brought her) and said, “You have not brought me a human being but have brought me a devil.” The tyrant then gave Hajar as a girl-servant to Sarah. Sarah came back (to Abraham) while he was praying. Abraham, gesturing with his hand, asked, “What has happened?” She replied, “Allah has spoiled the evil plot of the infidel (or immoral person) and gave me Hajar for service.” (Abu Huraira then addressed his listeners saying, “That (Hajar) was your mother, O Bani Ma-is-Sama (i.e. the Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael, Hajar’s son).”

 

[AbeOman]

I’m sorry you’re against evidence. Perhaps I should just give my opinion.

“Moslems are allowed to kill for their god”

Who is the their God? and How it’s different from your God?
There you go.

Are you suggesting Muhammed didn’t allow this to happen? Another inaccurate Hadith?

There is some arguement about the authenticity of the Hadith, but I have shown occations that telling a lie is permited, now please understand here we are not talking about an out right lie, i urge you read and understand my post below, the last one.

This is from the most ‘reliable’ collection; Bukhari

Such as? The Hadith is used to see how to *apply *the Koran because it shows it at work in the early Moslem community - it shows it in a social context.

Not one bit. All you’ve done is suggest it just isn’t true.

Please see below:

**Furthermore, in regard to lie in general and speaking of “lies”, it was narrated from the Prophet by Abdullah ibn Mas’ood that the Prophet (PBUH)said, ‘The speaking of lies leads one to immorality and immorality leads one to the fire of hell.’ (Bukhari, Hadith Saheeh)
This is the general rule regarding lies, however, the prophet (PBUH) has himself made the exception to the rule and whatever says is a revelation from God Almighty. He said, "Lies are only permitted in three instances, for a man to make his wife happy, in war and for reconciliation between people.’ (Tirmidhi).

I strongly suggest as a further reading for you that you take some time to read a chapter written by AL Bukhari titled, ‘Speaking a lie in war’. this chapter will explain the authenticity of the hadith, it’s qiyas or reasons and it’s permissibility.

Thanks once again,**

 

[AbeOman]

But that’s lies for its own sake. It’s like killing. You’re not meant to kill, per se, but if it’s for ‘the cause’, then it’s fine.

Thus there’s the ‘general’ rule…
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 32:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "The signs of a hypocrite are three:

1. Whenever he speaks, he tells a lie.
2. Whenever he promises, he always breaks it (his promise ).
3. If you trust him, he proves to be dishonest. (If you keep something as a trust with him, he will not return it.)"
   usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.032
   and at
   Volume 3, Book 48, Number 847
   Volume 4, Book 51, Number 12
   Volume 4, Book 53, Number 403
   Volume 2, Book 23, Number 378
   Volume 4, Book 56, Number 667
   and so on
   And the exceptions you add to below

Which is evidence you provide in support of me!

Where have I said that this isn’t the case? I said Muhammed allowed people to lie. And gave an example. You retort with a ‘general’ rule on lying and then provide yourself with exceptions to that rule.

Islam is a religion of rules with exceptions for expediency. Christianity is not.

When we’re surrounded by *wolves *who seek to attack us because of our faith, we’re asked to stand firm. You’re permitted to *weasel *your way out of it.

Muhammed was adamant that people could not lie against him!
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 106:

Narrated 'Ali:

The Prophet said, “Do not tell a lie against me for whoever tells a lie against me (intentionally) then he will surely enter the Hell-fire.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/003.sbt.html#001.003.106

Also
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 107
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 108
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 110
and so on

But lying for him, that’s different. Lying for your god is too, here’s more…

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 577:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Abraham did not tell a lie except on three occasions.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/055.sbt.html#004.055.546
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 578:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Abraham did not tell a lie except on three occasion. Twice for the Sake of Allah when he said, “I am sick,” and he said, “(I have not done this but) the big idol has done it.” The (third was) that while Abraham and Sarah (his wife) were going (on a journey) they passed by (the territory of) a tyrant. Someone said to the tyrant, “This man (i.e. Abraham) is accompanied by a very charming lady.” So, he sent for Abraham and asked him about Sarah saying, “Who is this lady?” Abraham said, “She is my sister.” Abraham went to Sarah and said, “O Sarah! There are no believers on the surface of the earth except you and I. This man asked me about you and I have told him that you are my sister, so don’t contradict my statement.” The tyrant then called Sarah and when she went to him, he tried to take hold of her with his hand, but (his hand got stiff and) he was confounded. He asked Sarah. “Pray to Allah for me, and I shall not harm you.” So Sarah asked Allah to cure him and he got cured. He tried to take hold of her for the second time, but (his hand got as stiff as or stiffer than before and) was more confounded. He again requested Sarah, “Pray to Allah for me, and I will not harm you.” Sarah asked Allah again and he became alright. He then called one of his guards (who had brought her) and said, “You have not brought me a human being but have brought me a devil.” The tyrant then gave Hajar as a girl-servant to Sarah. Sarah came back (to Abraham) while he was praying. Abraham, gesturing with his hand, asked, “What has happened?” She replied, “Allah has spoiled the evil plot of the infidel (or immoral person) and gave me Hajar for service.” (Abu Huraira then addressed his listeners saying, “That (Hajar) was your mother, O Bani Ma-is-Sama (i.e. the Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael, Hajar’s son).”

Ok, what we need to understand is the nature of the lie, why it was permitted and to what ends, we have to understand what is the end gain here to validate whether it’s an out right lie or not.

again, there are 3 occasions a Muslim can deviate from the truth and it seems to me the above falls within this 3.

See my earlier post that outlines the 3 permissible occassions one can tell a lie.

 

[meedo]

AbeOman, thank you for replying.

I guess I’ll start with something that is commonly claimed against Islam: the perception that Muslims may lie in order to further the cause of Islam.

I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this matter and suggest this may be a misunderstanding on our part. I think this could be so.

Nonetheless, I have to ask you if this is true:

May a Muslim lie (speak falsehood) in order to further the cause of Islam?

No a muslim may not lie in order to further the cause of Islam.

There are 3 cases a muslim is allowed to lie

1- To mend relations between two people who are at cross with each other

2- In metapgor, like a man telling his wife that hse is as beautiful as the moon. or he is as strong as a rock.

3- During battle,in which a muslim commander or head of state my state false intentions to decieve enemy troops.’

I know many here will jump on the third point and claim that muslims regard they are at war always. that is outright falsehood. this point is in regard of battle times. It doesnt relate to spreading Islam as a faith in the hearts of people.

Simply put. If you ask a question about islam , you are entitled to have an honest answer.If somebody lies to you then he is lying and considered sinful and contrary to the religion of Islam.

I hope that clarified .

Meedo

 

[Montalban]

Ok, what we need to understand is the nature of the lie, why it was permitted and to what ends, we have to understand what is the end gain here to validate whether it’s an out right lie or not.

again, there are 3 occasions a Muslim can deviate from the truth and it seems to me the above falls within this 3.

See my earlier post that outlines the 3 permissible occassions one can tell a lie.

In one sense, I don’t care ‘why?’ The point is I said you’re allowed to lie. You say you are. You’ve proved my point.

When someone asks are Moslems permitted to lie you’re in effect going “Oh, no, no, no… er… yes”

 

[Montalban]

Who is the their God? and How it’s different from your God?

Their god, being your god is not God, who is God. My God is one of truth. Your god is one who not only allows you to act for expediency’s sake, but also decives people to boot!

There is some arguement about the authenticity of the Hadith,

Where is this argument?

but I have shown occations that telling a lie is permited, now please understand here we are not talking about an out right lie, i urge you read and understand my post below, the last one.

I never said it was an outright lie, in fact I gave every evidence to show this. But you are allowed to lie.

I strongly suggest as a further reading for you that you take some time to read a chapter written by AL Bukhari titled, ‘Speaking a lie in war’. this

I strongly suggest you re-think what it is you want to be arguing. You seem unwilling to address what I have said, but go more for what you think I have said.

You’re allowed to lie in Islam. I’ve shown this. You’ve shown this.

 

[Montalban]

No a muslim may not lie in order to further the cause of Islam.

AbeOman and I have demonstrated this is not true.

There are 3 cases a muslim is allowed to lie

1- To mend relations between two people who are at cross with each other

2- In metapgor, like a man telling his wife that hse is as beautiful as the moon. or he is as strong as a rock.

3- During battle,in which a muslim commander or head of state my state false intentions to decieve enemy troops.’

And, now you have. Point 3 furthers the cause of Islam.

I know many here will jump on the third point and claim that muslims regard they are at war always. that is outright falsehood. this point is in regard of battle times. It doesnt relate to spreading Islam as a faith in the hearts of people.

No. You *are *always at war (except in those areas already surrendered)

 

[AbeOman]

In one sense, I don’t care ‘why?’ The point is I said you’re allowed to lie. You say you are. You’ve proved my point.

When someone asks are Moslems permitted to lie you’re in effect going “Oh, no, no, no… er… yes”

**YES, we are allowed to lie in only these 3 occasions and in the same sense that we are allowed to consume Pig meat if one is dieing of hunger and there is no alternative or drink whiskey or wine if it will cure a decease.

It’s that simple.**

 

[meedo]

**YES, we are allowed to lie in only these 3 occasions and in the same sense that we are allowed to consume Pig meat if one is dieing of hunger and there is no alternative or drink whiskey or wine if it will cure a decease.

It’s that simple.**

There is no hope with Montalban. You are new here Abe. better fous your efforts with people who will listen.

Mr. Ex. Nihilo is one of them.

 

[dolphinlove]

There is no hope with Montalban. You are new here Abe. better fous your efforts with people who will listen.

Mr. Ex. Nihilo is one of them.

The problem is, Muslims cannot answer his logic.
He, and others on this thread manage to display the true belief system of Islam, and when they do, its either answered with silence or twisted around.
Good thing about Christianity is we dont have to lie to spread the truth, it think God wouldnt want us too.
Christianity is the truth, God wouldnt want us to lie.

 

[AbeOman]

The problem is, Muslims cannot answer his logic.
He, and others on this thread manage to display the true belief system of Islam, and when they do, its either answered with silence or twisted around.
Good thing about Christianity is we dont have to lie to spread the truth, it think God wouldnt want us too.
Christianity is the truth, God wouldnt want us to lie.

**My friend, this was not a comparison chart of who’s religion or faith is better, neither a hostile debate and just to correct you and for the last time, NO ““A Humongous NO”” telling lies is permitted in Islam.
with acceptation of of Only 3 and again with limitation of the nature of the lie, it’s intent result, if the end is “good” or leads to a good end. I have already mention repeatedly those 3.

Thankx**

 

[meedo]

The problem is, Muslims cannot answer his logic.
He, and others on this thread manage to display the true belief system of Islam, and when they do, its either answered with silence or twisted around.
Good thing about Christianity is we dont have to lie to spread the truth, it think God wouldnt want us too.
Christianity is the truth, God wouldnt want us to lie.

what Logic to answer?

The one thing that is logical here is that the easiest way to demonise a whole people is to accuse them of always lying.

By This you have shut forever all means of communication. There is no hope for me to convince you of anything if every word that comes out of my mouth is a lie.

Montalban loves what he says and believes . All what he doesnt like to hear is bieng accused of lies .

who can beat that ?

Good luck

 

[Booklover]

what Logic to answer?

The one thing that is logical here is that the easiest way to demonise a whole people is to accuse them of always lying.

By This you have shut forever all means of communication. There is no hope for me to convince you of anything if every word that comes out of my mouth is a lie.

Montalban loves what he says and believes . All what he doesnt like to hear is bieng accused of lies .

who can beat that ?

Good luck

Oh pleeeeese! Not the victim game again! Muhammad gave Muslims the right to lie, so don’t blame others if they don’t believe what you say!

Vickie

 

[Valke2]

**YES, we are allowed to lie in only these 3 occasions and in the same sense that we are allowed to consume Pig meat if one is dieing of hunger and there is no alternative or drink whiskey or wine if it will cure a decease.

It’s that simple.**

I found your posts to be quite informative, thanks. Unless you’re lying

 

[Montalban]

YES, we are allowed to lie in only these 3 occasions and in the same sense that we are allowed to consume Pig meat if one is dieing of hunger and there is no alternative or drink whiskey or wine if it will cure a decease.

It’s that simple.

As expediency allows.

But it’s a stetch of an analogy, because you don’t have to be dying to lie - you gave an example of lying in a marriage.