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Montalban
Guest
He proved my point about lying. That’s your co-religionists problem you argue against yourself and then blame me!
Watch our Mr Ex Nihilio!
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Montalban
Guest
But the point is you’ve just spent days arguing against me, but countering yourself with examples - till you finally admit that there’s three examples. And now you contradict yourself in your own post saying you’re not allowed to lie, and then saying yes, there’s three examples of exemptions.
That’s the kind of muddled logic Moselms present here. And then they blame everyone else for it.
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Montalban
Guest
Who did that here?
I think the way to demonise Islam is to let Moslems speak for their faith - you’ve just suggested again that everyone’s picking on you; giving a false charge - no one’s made such an argument.
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Montalban
Guest
Excepting that they can (according to his three examples) tell lies when they’re not at the point of death.
Compare the two:
I’m starving. I’m not allowed to eat pork, but if I don’t I’ll die. I’m given an exemption.
My wife comes home with a hideous new dress. “Oh, beautiful, doesn’t make you look fat”.
One’s a matter of life and death - the other, only in jokes about women and rolling-pins.
And this isn’t even addressing the point that they believe that their god decieves people!
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
AbeOman and meedo, thank you for the replies.
I really haven’t had the chance to devout as much time as I would like on this thread. I will be replying sooner when I have a chance.
I will just briefly note that many of us, as Christian, do not feel that we may lie in order to save our lives, more particularly deny Christ Jesus.
Having said that, the conditions in which we lie can affect the seriousness of the lie, affecting whether it is a mortal sin or venial sin.
Note that the nature of the lie does not change. In the absolute sense, a lie is a lie regardless of the reasons for speaking it.
However, having said that, the reason for speaking the lie can dramatically change the seriousness of the consequence.
For example, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church notes…
On the absolute distinction water when boiled turns to steam. This is absolute.
But the conditions which can cause water to turn to steam can vary to an absolute scale. This is where an odd example comes in…
The same can be said in the opposite direction as well, such as of supercooled liquids– a liquid below its freezing point will crystallize in the presence of a seed crystal or nucleus around which a crystal structure can form. However, lacking any such nucleus, the liquid phase can be maintained all the way down to the temperature at which crystal homogeneous nucleation occurs. The homogeneous nucleation can occur above the glass transition where the system is an amorphous—that is, non-crystalline—solid.
I really haven’t had the chance to devout as much time as I would like on this thread. I will be replying sooner when I have a chance.
I will just briefly note that many of us, as Christian, do not feel that we may lie in order to save our lives, more particularly deny Christ Jesus.
Having said that, the conditions in which we lie can affect the seriousness of the lie, affecting whether it is a mortal sin or venial sin.
Note that the nature of the lie does not change. In the absolute sense, a lie is a lie regardless of the reasons for speaking it.
However, having said that, the reason for speaking the lie can dramatically change the seriousness of the consequence.
For example, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church notes…
Some accuse us Catholics of relativism, as I’m sure they accuse you as Muslims the same thing. However, I would disagree with them. I tend to think of the scale between mortal and venial as being absolute, almost like the boiling point of water.
On the absolute distinction water when boiled turns to steam. This is absolute.
But the conditions which can cause water to turn to steam can vary to an absolute scale. This is where an odd example comes in…
…the conditions which bring about the absolute distinction are also absolute-- when the conditions are met the same thing will always happen (it just appears random because we are not fully aware of all the factors that make the distinction).
The same can be said in the opposite direction as well, such as of supercooled liquids– a liquid below its freezing point will crystallize in the presence of a seed crystal or nucleus around which a crystal structure can form. However, lacking any such nucleus, the liquid phase can be maintained all the way down to the temperature at which crystal homogeneous nucleation occurs. The homogeneous nucleation can occur above the glass transition where the system is an amorphous—that is, non-crystalline—solid.
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AbeOman
Guest
Great analyses and very interesting points of view.
thanks so much for your time, I appreciate it.
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AbeOman
Guest
**My friend,let me ask you for the last time, are you a Catholic…? if so what is their God means…? do you think Muslim believe a different God then Christians…? Yes, we differ on the concept of the tirnity the “Son God” or Son of God, but when it comes to God Almighty we believe the same. Or you think differently.
said that, I urge you as a good catholic if you are one to read my last post in full, in the end I will be more than happy to clarify you any points that are not clear to you.
Thanks again.**
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Montalban
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Montalban
Guest
Expediency is what Islam’s all about.
Even Muhammed, when he desired to break with custom and marry the wife of a nephew suddenly had a ‘revelation’ from his god saying it was okay to do so.
He made it a rule that men could not have more than four wives, yet he had nine.
And anyway, if you can afford them, you’re allowed to have concubines in addition to your wives.
If pressed by circumstances*, you can lie. Al-lah deceived people anyway.
When you desire a woman, you can blame the way she’s dressed on your own lack of control.
If you desire a girl, just re-classify her as a woman.
If you have to give ‘charity’ - give it to members of your own family first… after-all they’re going to be needed if you’re in trouble later on - better to give to them then to some stranger.
You can call ‘forcing someone to submit’ as offering them peace. You can say there’s no compulsion in religion, but compel people on pain of death to pay taxes (based on their faith), or to threaten someone who becomes Apostate with death.
It’s a very easy religion to live by. It was always popular with brigands and raiders - such as the Corsairs and the Barbary Pirates, the Mongols of central Asia, and the Turks - and of course it all started with Muhammed himself who took a ‘cut’ from each caravan that was looted.
*and it doesn’t have to be a matter of life/death
Even Muhammed, when he desired to break with custom and marry the wife of a nephew suddenly had a ‘revelation’ from his god saying it was okay to do so.
He made it a rule that men could not have more than four wives, yet he had nine.
And anyway, if you can afford them, you’re allowed to have concubines in addition to your wives.
If pressed by circumstances*, you can lie. Al-lah deceived people anyway.
When you desire a woman, you can blame the way she’s dressed on your own lack of control.
If you desire a girl, just re-classify her as a woman.
If you have to give ‘charity’ - give it to members of your own family first… after-all they’re going to be needed if you’re in trouble later on - better to give to them then to some stranger.
You can call ‘forcing someone to submit’ as offering them peace. You can say there’s no compulsion in religion, but compel people on pain of death to pay taxes (based on their faith), or to threaten someone who becomes Apostate with death.
It’s a very easy religion to live by. It was always popular with brigands and raiders - such as the Corsairs and the Barbary Pirates, the Mongols of central Asia, and the Turks - and of course it all started with Muhammed himself who took a ‘cut’ from each caravan that was looted.
*and it doesn’t have to be a matter of life/death
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dolphinlove
Guest
Im not comparing anything, i just said we are NOT allowed to lie in Christianity. Period!
Then, you tell me you cant lie, then in the same post, tell me you can on 3 occasions…
So basically, muslims can lie…
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Montalban
Guest
Who’s known as the master of confusion? (as well as the master of lies)
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dolphinlove
Guest
booklover answered this beautifully, but i will say one thing.
Your right, you cant convince me of anything, and i didnt accuse you of lying all the time.
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dolphinlove
Guest
yes we know who that is…
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Booklover
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AbeOman
Guest
Hi Vickie, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the post, please allow me to make some clarifications.
Originally Posted by Montalban
Expediency is what Islam’s all about.
Even Muhammed, when he desired to break with custom and marry the wife of a nephew suddenly had a ‘revelation’ from his god saying it was okay to do so.
1- Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) married 11 wives and not 9 as you have stated. You can read the life history of the Prophet (PBUH)), only two of his marriages one with Khadija (ra), and the other, with Ayesha (ra) were marriages in the normal course. All his other marriages were contracted as a necessity and were based on various considerations.
He made it a rule that men could not have more than four wives, yet he had nine.
2- The prophet never made any rules and it was his postion to make any rules unless clearly defined and instructed in the Quran.
And anyway, if you can afford them, you’re allowed to have concubines in addition to your wives.
If pressed by circumstances*, you can lie. Al-lah deceived people anyway.
3- What is your proof…?
When you desire a woman, you can blame the way she’s dressed on your own lack of control.
4- Are you kaming this up or you reading from some of those anti islamic sites, let’s use reason, logic and facts.
If you desire a girl, just re-classify her as a woman.
**5- Once again facts not mere Conjecture or speculations and inferences., here click on of these links or both it will give you lots info and will correct some of your misconceptions iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel6.htm ] and lastisland.wordpress.com/2007/09/26/why-did-prophet-muhammad-pbuh-have-eleven-wives/ **
If you have to give ‘charity’ - give it to members of your own family first… after-all they’re going to be needed if you’re in trouble later on - better to give to them then to some stranger.
"6- Charity begins at home" the saying goes and what is the point of giving charity to total strengers when members of your family are in need…please let’s apply common sense, also in Islam in some cases one is not permitted charity to his kin, family members or those close to him.
You can call ‘forcing someone to submit’ as offering them peace. You can say there’s no compulsion in religion, but compel people on pain of death to pay taxes (based on their faith), or to threaten someone who becomes Apostate with death.
7- Again, please facts not just specualtions and I’m sure you don’t know much about Islam, moreover, Al Jizya "let’s called tax for lack of better word’ is not applied merely as tax but sort of contirbution of none Muslims living under Muslim rule and to only those who can afford.
It’s a very easy religion to live by. It was always popular with brigands and raiders - such as the Corsairs and the Barbary Pirates, the Mongols of central Asia, and the Turks - and of course it all started with Muhammed himself who took a ‘cut’ from each caravan that was looted.
8- Sorry, this is not worthy of a comment, but I suggest that you learn about Islam at least so you can make up your mind about what is tru and what is just nonesone.
*and it doesn’t have to be a matter of life/death
**Again, # 8 above applies. **
Originally Posted by Montalban
Expediency is what Islam’s all about.
Even Muhammed, when he desired to break with custom and marry the wife of a nephew suddenly had a ‘revelation’ from his god saying it was okay to do so.
1- Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) married 11 wives and not 9 as you have stated. You can read the life history of the Prophet (PBUH)), only two of his marriages one with Khadija (ra), and the other, with Ayesha (ra) were marriages in the normal course. All his other marriages were contracted as a necessity and were based on various considerations.
He made it a rule that men could not have more than four wives, yet he had nine.
2- The prophet never made any rules and it was his postion to make any rules unless clearly defined and instructed in the Quran.
And anyway, if you can afford them, you’re allowed to have concubines in addition to your wives.
If pressed by circumstances*, you can lie. Al-lah deceived people anyway.
3- What is your proof…?
When you desire a woman, you can blame the way she’s dressed on your own lack of control.
4- Are you kaming this up or you reading from some of those anti islamic sites, let’s use reason, logic and facts.
If you desire a girl, just re-classify her as a woman.
**5- Once again facts not mere Conjecture or speculations and inferences., here click on of these links or both it will give you lots info and will correct some of your misconceptions iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel6.htm ] and lastisland.wordpress.com/2007/09/26/why-did-prophet-muhammad-pbuh-have-eleven-wives/ **
If you have to give ‘charity’ - give it to members of your own family first… after-all they’re going to be needed if you’re in trouble later on - better to give to them then to some stranger.
"6- Charity begins at home" the saying goes and what is the point of giving charity to total strengers when members of your family are in need…please let’s apply common sense, also in Islam in some cases one is not permitted charity to his kin, family members or those close to him.
You can call ‘forcing someone to submit’ as offering them peace. You can say there’s no compulsion in religion, but compel people on pain of death to pay taxes (based on their faith), or to threaten someone who becomes Apostate with death.
7- Again, please facts not just specualtions and I’m sure you don’t know much about Islam, moreover, Al Jizya "let’s called tax for lack of better word’ is not applied merely as tax but sort of contirbution of none Muslims living under Muslim rule and to only those who can afford.
It’s a very easy religion to live by. It was always popular with brigands and raiders - such as the Corsairs and the Barbary Pirates, the Mongols of central Asia, and the Turks - and of course it all started with Muhammed himself who took a ‘cut’ from each caravan that was looted.
8- Sorry, this is not worthy of a comment, but I suggest that you learn about Islam at least so you can make up your mind about what is tru and what is just nonesone.
*and it doesn’t have to be a matter of life/death
**Again, # 8 above applies. **
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dolphinlove
Guest
These are classic text book answers Muslims always give.
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Montalban
Guest
To me, that’s like you’re saying "How dare you accuse me of stealing $100, I stole $240!Montalban:
1- Muhammad married 11 wives and not 9 as you have stated.
Yes, the ‘various considerations’ being that he lusted for his neice (she was married to his nephew and was thus socially his neice). The ‘various considerations’ being lust!
Are you denying that Moslem men were only allowed 4 wives, but Muhammed had more?Montalban:
2- The prophet never made any rules and it was his postion to make any rules unless clearly defined and instructed in the Quran.
Regarding which bit? I’ve already shown that in expedient circumstances you’re allowed to lie. This isn’t a matter of life or death. You can lie to your wife to ‘maintain harmony’ in the marriage.
I don’t know what kaming means. But it’s true in Islam that you deem a man more incapable of controlling his lusts, therefore the woman must dress accordinglyMontalban:
4- Are you kaming this up or you reading from some of those anti islamic sites, let’s use reason, logic and facts.
In Islam, you deem a girl a woman 3 months after she begins puberty. Yet no Islamic nation accords her other ‘adult’ rights, such as to vote and to drive AT THE SAME TIME she’s considered a woman for the purposes of marriage.Montalban:
]5- Once again facts not mere Conjecture or speculations and inferences., here click on of these links or both it will give you lots info and will correct some of your misconceptions
So you say that you are allowed to give charity to your own family!Montalban:
“6- Charity begins at home” the saying goes and what is the point of giving charity to total strengers when members of your family are in need…please let’s apply common sense, also in Islam in some cases one is not permitted charity to his kin, family members or those close to him.
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Montalban
Guest
The fact is Muhammed allowed Moselms to raid. You’re allowed to keep what your right hand posessesMontalban:
8- Sorry, this is not worthy of a comment, but I suggest that you learn about Islam at least so you can make up your mind about what is tru and what is just nonesone.
AN-NISA (WOMEN)
004.003
YUSUFALI: If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
PICKTHAL: And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.
SHAKIR: And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html
4:3 (Noble Translation -Surah An-Nisa)
And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphangirls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice.
quraan.com/index.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=27&bid=4
AND…you can have a married woman, if she becomes your slave.
004.024
YUSUFALI: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
PICKTHAL: And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah’s ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.
4:24 (Noble Translation -Surah An-Nisa)
Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever AllKnowing, AllWise.
quraan.com/index.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=27&bid=4
Look up Koran 23:5,6!
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Montalban
Guest
Again you admit the fact. Based on your faith, you’re forced to pay Moslems a tax. And you don’t address death to apostates.Montalban:
7- Again, please facts not just specualtions and I’m sure you don’t know much about Islam, moreover, Al Jizya "let’s called tax for lack of better word’ is not applied merely as tax but sort of contirbution of none Muslims living under Muslim rule and to only those who can afford.
Half of your denials are actual acceptences. I said Muhammed had more wives. You go “how dare you, he didn’t have 9, he had 11!” how’s that disprove that he had more wives?
You accept that non-Moslems have to pay a special tax, but in circumstances, when they ‘can afford it’ - which doesn’t deny that they don’t as a rule have to pay it.
The rest were claims of ‘you just don’t understand us’.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Don’t forget the ‘pay the jizyah with HUMILIATION’ bit. It was highly DISCRIMINATION and far more than what the Muslims paid.
The ‘only those who can afford’ bit is also suspect.
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