My Thoughts on Islam...

[Montalban]

I think we’re at cross purposes here. I can accept that Islamic law is not contra the Koran. However it is derived from the interpretations of the Koran already given by Muhammed and his followers in the Hadith.

The Hadith shows the Koran in action

Your thoughts are wrong and that is my point,

You repeating this mantra like, is not a ‘point’.

I have detailed it in my newer post, please read it in more detailed fashion.

And I’ve responded

There you go with your allegations and you missed the point I was making, if I want to learn about Islam I would have gone to a Islamic site not a Catholic or any other site…that is the spirit of my point and has nothing to do about to be hospitable to other opinions.

I didn’t miss the point, you missed mine. You say it’s an Oxymoron, based on your own preference for going to an Islamic site. That doesn’t make it anything more than that is your preferred means of learning. Others, learn here. Moslem apologists offer up explanations of things (or think that they do - in your case you’ve already said you’re not going to do this - making yet another contradiction)

You have been using Anti-Islamic sources and basically cherry picking what you want and that is the fact.

You’ve been repeating that I’ve cherry-picked.

 

[Montalban]

Funny how AbeOman feels it is all right for him to ‘cherry-pick’ the verses that he thinks supports his point yet bemoans that for others.

You’re just wrong. Let me say that a 100 more times!

 

[AbeOman]

an-Nisa’ 4:89
‏ودوا لو تكفرون كما كفروا فتكونون سواء فلا تتخذوا منهم اولياء حتى يهاجروا في سبيل الله فان تولوا فخذوهم واقتلوهم حيث وجدتموهم ولاتتخذوا منهم وليا ولانصيرا
Waddoo law takfuroona kama kafaroo fatakoonoona sawaan fala tattakhithoo minhum awliyaa hatta yuhajiroo fee sabeeli Allahi fa-in tawallaw fakhuthoohum waoqtuloohum haythu wajadtumoohum wala tattakhithoo minhum waliyyan wala naseeran

They wished/loved if you disbelieve, as they disbelieved, so you become equal/alike. So do not take from them allies , until they emigrate in God’s sake, so if they turned away, so take/punish them and fight/kill them, where/when you found them, and do not take from them an ally , and nor a supporter/savior.

Seems to me you are commanded to seize and fight those who TURN AWAY from Allah after they have emigrated to him (i.e. accepted Islam).

Oh my word, who are those who turn away…? who are the versus dealing with…? why not complete the rest…? why not share with us to whom the versus are addressing …? or you just like that TURN AWAY from Allah bit…

Come on, it’s like what I have been battling with MontAlban all along.

A brotherly word of advice, don’t go get stuff from sites that have specific agenda and honestly don’t know much about the Quran or it’s meanings, most definitely they have other agenda, there is no point of quoting a correct versus or the Quran and applying it to something it does not mean…?
That is dishonesty, pure and simple.

 

[Montalban]

My dear, of coarse I know and have most of the answers but who is interested in answers anyway.

Make up your mind then if you’re going to offer answers or not.

How you can contradict yourself so easily is beyond my understanding.

 

[Montalban]

Oh my word, who are those who turn away…? who are the versus dealing with…? why not complete the rest…? why not share with us to whom the versus are addressing …? or you just like that TURN AWAY from Allah bit…

That’s not a response. That’s an attempt - by innuendo only - that
Rodrigo Bivar is wrong.

Come on, it’s like what I have been battling with MontAlban all along.

That’s still not an argument.
On a trivial note…why MontAlban? It’s a name from a castle, that may have been named *after *a mountain. But the castle is Montalban.

A brotherly word of advice, don’t go get stuff from sites that have specific agenda and honestly don’t know much about the Quran or it’s meanings, most definitely they have other agenda, there is no point of quoting a correct versus or the Quran and applying it to something it does not mean…?

More non-argument. Only sites that agree with you are correct!

That is dishonesty, pure and simple.

You think it honest to avoid discussion - which you’re not here for anyway, but you are - except to make just-so statements :whacky:

 

[AbeOman]

This is a red-herring. Not everything in Islam is in the Koran.

No. That’s false. The Koranic verses on ‘compulsion’ were abroagated by other Koranic verses.

The verse has been abrogated. The abrogating verse is Koran 9:73
AT-TAWBA (REPENTANCE, DISPENSATION)
009.073
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination
usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html

This is why there’s no pagan Arabs. They were either slain, or compelled to convert.

con’t…

How could it be an abrogation when the two versus don’t mean the same thing, does not apply to the same thing, have different rulings to different matters all together.

I have have a suggestion, this link (the one you have used) is very good one so why not go through it and learn more.

you will see by the end that will clarify lots of stuff to you.

Thanks

 

[dolphinlove]

How could it be an abrogation when the two versus don’t mean the same thing, does not apply to the same thing, have different rulings to different matters all together.

I have have a suggestion, this link (the one you have used) is very good one so why not go through it and learn more.

you will see by the end that will clarify lots of stuff to you.

Thanks

Is this another way of saying we dont understand you… AGAIN???

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Oh my word, who are those who turn away…? who are the versus dealing with…? why not complete the rest…? why not share with us to whom the versus are addressing …? or you just like that TURN AWAY from Allah bit…

The verses are long. But the meaning is clear from what i have already shown.

Muslims are not allowed to take disbelievers as friends - unless they emigrate in the way of Allah.

So what is the meaning of ‘emigrate in the way of Allah’? It means to become Muslims.

so if they turn away - seize and kill them wherever you find them (subject to several conditions).

==> it is clear that Muslims are commanded to seize and kill people simply because they TURNED AWAY from Islam.

AbeOman:

Come on, it’s like what I have been battling with MontAlban all along.

A brotherly word of advice, don’t go get stuff from sites that have specific agenda and honestly don’t know much about the Quran or it’s meanings, most definitely they have other agenda, there is no point of quoting a correct versus or the Quran and applying it to something it does not mean…?
That is dishonesty, pure and simple.

A word of advise - I know Islam better than you, and I reject your claims of dishonesty, pure and simple.

 

[AbeOman]

That’s not a response. That’s an attempt - by innuendo only - that
Rodrigo Bivar is wrong.
So you agree with me he or she is wrong…?
That’s still not an argument.
On a trivial note…why MontAlban? It’s a name from a castle, that may have been named *after *a mountain. But the castle is Montalban.

MontAlban I was referring to you since it’s your nick, again apply the same logic to Moslems and Muslims or you only think something is wrong with me.
More non-argument. Only sites that agree with you are correct!

As matter of fact, one of your sites is very good and I said so, what I’m not acceptinf is sites that have a different agenda then informing people about Islam in other words those Anti-Islamic sites.
You think it honest to avoid discussion - which you’re not here for anyway, but you are - except to make just-so statements :whacky:

come on, that is not fair, we have been on it for quite sometime so how on earth did you concluded that I’m not willing to discuss, one last thing, regardless of how long we keep at it, whatever I say or you say is not going to change much, you have your position and i do mine so what is the point.

As I said before, the link you have used is very informative and I suggest you spend sometime on it.

Thanks anyway,

 

[AbeOman]

The verses are long. But the meaning is clear from what i have already shown.

There is a reason that they are long…? do you know why…?

Muslims are not allowed to take disbelievers as friends - unless they emigrate in the way of Allah.

That is true, but do you know whom God was talking about and as he instructed the prophet who was the prophet was dealing with…? moreover, do you know why the versus where revealed to the prophet…?

I strongly think you don’t.

So what is the meaning of ‘emigrate in the way of Allah’? It means to become Muslims.

Is that your opinion or what the text means to be exact…?

so if they turn away - seize and kill them wherever you find them (subject to several conditions).

yes, who are these people…? please explain…?

==> it is clear that Muslims are commanded to seize and kill people simply because they TURNED AWAY from Islam.

That is over simplification of the verses, but let us see what exactly it means. to find out that I suggest you try to answer my questions above.

A word of advise - I know Islam better than you, and I reject your claims of dishonesty, pure and simple.

Since I have never claim to know better Islam better then anybody but I have challenged your misquotes and errors, then please explain to me, How could you know Islam better then me…? what is your qualifications…? are you a man of knowledge, if so what school of Fiqh have you studied…? what university and what degree and since you know Islam better then me are you Muslim then and if not how come you are not…?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Since I have never claim to know better Islam better then anybody but I have challenged your misquotes and errors, then please explain to me, How could you know Islam better then me…? what is your qualifications…? are you a man of knowledge, if so what school of Fiqh have you studied…? what university and what degree and since you know Islam better then me are you Muslim then and if not how come you are not…?

You have committed a red herring here by making up some nonexistent rules.

I know Islam better than you because I have lived through it.

Please learn to use the quote button properly as it is difficult to reply to your responses the way you have inserted your responses.

I have given you the verse - look it up.

 

[AbeOman]

You have committed a red herring here by making up some nonexistent rules.

I know Islam better than you because I have lived through it.

You know Islam better then me because you simply live through it…? what about me who has been a practising Muslim for the last 35 years and who did amble studies and who’s Arabic is his first language and still studying it… I have never claimed that I know Islam better then anyone because that is a lie and there are so many people who know lot better then me but your claim is quite beyond me.
Please learn to use the quote button properly as it is difficult to reply to your responses the way you have inserted your responses.

Thanks, i will and rest assured I’m trying my best, perhaps you could be show me how and i would appreciate that.
I have given you the verse - look it up.

I don’t have to look it up since I’m able to recite it by heart (memory) and i know exactly what it means and it was not me who said you were wrong, meaning the verse is correct and you have quoted rightly but you have applied in the wrong place or tied to give the wrong meaning.

I hope you don’t misunderstand me,

Thanks and god bless,

 

[Montalban]

How could it be an abrogation when the two versus don’t mean the same thing, does not apply to the same thing, have different rulings to different matters all together.

Hey, I’m not the Islamic commentator. I’ve noted that in Islam this is what Moslems believe. I noted what commentators believe this. The best you come up with is an appeal to ‘how can it be so’. It’s your faith. If it doesn’t make sense to you, leave it.

I have have a suggestion, this link (the one you have used) is very good one so why not go through it and learn more.

you will see by the end that will clarify lots of stuff to you.

Thanks

Hey, just as a suggestion why don’t you actually address what’s written. You don’t convince people when you tell them all the time to go and read a whole lot of other stuff that may or may not address the issues at hand.

 

[Montalban]

So you agree with me he or she is wrong…?

The problem is you’ve not said he is wrong. You’ve only ‘hinted’. Rather than construct an argument you’re in effect going back to your same boring device of suggesting he go and read some more

In short you’ve shown consistantly you’re unable to offer argument.

All you’re doing now is spamming the threads with the same dull routine

a) you’re just cherry-picking
b) go read other sources
c) you don’t understand Islam

 

[Montalban]

AbeOman here’s even more evidence for you to ignore…

Sunan Abu Dawud
Book 38, Number 4341:

Narrated Mu’adh ibn Jabal:

AbuMusa said: Mu’adh came to me when I was in the Yemen**. A man who was Jew embraced Islam and then retreated from Islam**. When Mu’adh came, he said: I will not come down from my mount until he is killed. He was then killed. One of them said: He was asked to repent before that.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html#038.4341

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234:

Narrated Abu Qilaba:

Anas said, “Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in ‘Al-Harra’ and when they asked for water, no water was given to them.” Abu Qilaba said, “Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle .”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html#038.4341

 

[pro_universal]

Hey, I’m not the Islamic commentator. I’ve noted that in Islam this is what Moslems believe. I noted what commentators believe this. The best you come up with is an appeal to ‘how can it be so’. It’s your faith. If it doesn’t make sense to you, leave it.

Except that when he points out to you that you are wrong, and that these are not in fact teachings that Muslims accept, you reject that. You are not accounting for the possibility that your picture of what Muslim commentators have actually said is grossly distorted-and that appears to be the case with you on these threads. You inevitably quote snippets of texts and articles from polemicists, not scholarly work that aims to understand, rather than to denigrate.

Hey, just as a suggestion why don’t you actually address what’s written. You don’t convince people when you tell them all the time to go and read a whole lot of other stuff that may or may not address the issues at hand.

He can’t convince you because you won’t accept the possibility that he is telling the truth about what Islam teaches, and that you are wrong.

The reason why this is not convincing to you, and why you can’t understand it, is that you simply will not take an honest look at what AbeOman and the other Muslims who come here are saying. It’s that simple-whenever an explanation is offered to you by a Muslim for some particular question, you reject it and claim that Islam actually says something else. Then you declare that no Muslim has ever addressed your points.

Of course they do-you just don’t accept anything but your own proclamations of what is and is not Islam. And that is simply a ridiculous way to engage in religious discussion-the only person failing to convince anyone here is you, because of your complete and total unwillingness to learn about what these people are actually saying.

 

[Montalban]

Except that when he points out to you that you are wrong, and that these are not in fact teachings that Muslims accept, you reject that. You are not accounting for the possibility that your picture of what Muslim commentators have actually said is grossly distorted-and that appears to be the case with you on these threads. You inevitably quote snippets of texts and articles from polemicists, not scholarly work that aims to understand, rather than to denigrate.

No. He just says I’m wrong. The Moslem commentators, who are well respected in Islam say that this verse abrogated the verse about compulsion.

In other words we’ve got his opinion -v- Islamic commentators. And, laughably, you return after a long absence with the same “You just don’t understand” comments

He can’t convince you because you won’t accept the possibility that he is telling the truth about what Islam teaches, and that you are wrong.

He can’t convince me because he offers nothing but a ‘just-so’. Show me the commentators that agree with him.

The rese is just projection from you about motives because your ‘argument’ has nothing more.

What reason do you think the various Hadith allowed people to be killed for Apostasy?

 

[Montalban]

In Islam

In Islam you only ‘understand it’ if you believe it all. Only a real believer can therefore comment on it.

Logic!

 

[pro_universal]

In Islam

In Islam you only ‘understand it’ if you believe it all. Only a real believer can therefore comment on it.

Logic!

No, that’s decidedly not what is going on here.

What is happening is that a Muslim comes here and tells you what Islam teaches-then you respond by saying “that’s not true-my google research proves that Islam actually teaches x y and z that are the opposite.”

When it’s explained why your google version of Islam is wrong, you just reject that explanation as lying.

It’s perfectly possible for non-Muslim people to understand what Muslims believe. The problem isn’t that you aren’t Muslim, it’s that you are simply wrong, and too stubborn to admit that you are wrong when a Muslim lays it out for you step by step.

Your lack of knowledge is the thing that we are trying to remedy here, not anything else.

Let’s look at some examples:

The Moslem commentators, who are well respected in Islam say that this verse abrogated the verse about compulsion.

Your online search of texts that run into the thousands of pages for a few key terms does not constitute a valid presentation of what “Muslim commentators” think. When AbeOman corrected you on this point, instead of taking note of the obvious (that as a Muslim, he knows what his religion teaches him), you simply rejected that and substituted your own single-line analysis.

To make this clear so we don’t have more misrepresentation:

You are wrong about what the Muslim commentators actually say. This is because you haven’t actually read any of their work, but rather have simply used a google-like tool to look for key words that you think will prove your case.

He can’t convince me because he offers nothing but a ‘just-so’. Show me the commentators that agree with him.

Well, he is a Muslim commentator, for one thing. Let’s not let that go unnoticed. And he pointed out to you that, by quoting single pieces from the net, you got the actual teaching wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time someone who hadn’t learned anything about a religion took a piece of writing and used it to claim ridiculous things about what that religion actually teaches-people do it to Catholics all the time. But hey, the opinion of some guy who hasn’t actually read the book he’s quoting, and has only read a paragraph or two based on a keyword search, is probably more accurate anyway because Muslims lie (so you say-I have yet to see a single Muslim agree with you on that)…right?

Wrong. And that’s the reason why you can’t make sense of what Muslims are saying to you on this board-it’s because your method of determing what Islam teaches is so unreasonable that you flatly ignore what in the flesh Muslims tell you they believe, and substitute whatever you happened to make up based on some website instead.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I don’t have to look it up since I’m able to recite it by heart (memory) and i know exactly what it means and it was not me who said you were wrong, meaning the verse is correct and you have quoted rightly but you have applied in the wrong place or tied to give the wrong meaning.

I hope you don’t misunderstand me,

Thanks and god bless,

Applied it in the wrong place? How so? It tells Muslims clear to seize and kill those who turn away (after they have emigrated in the way of Allah).

It is a simple case. No ifs no butts. If you think I have applied it in the wrong place - then don’t just say so - please show the evidence.