My Thoughts on Islam...

[pro_universal]

Applied it in the wrong place? How so? It tells Muslims clear to seize and kill those who turn away (after they have emigrated in the way of Allah).

It is a simple case. No ifs no butts. If you think I have applied it in the wrong place - then don’t just say so - please show the evidence.

Well, I know that the anti-Islamic websites that you used to plagiarize on this board say that about Islam. But they aren’t very good sources-and for all your supposed living knowledge of Islam, just a year ago you were literally cutting and pasting what other people wrote, and passing it off as your own research.

Just something for AbeOman to consider, since you were claiming to be an expert in Islam. Usually people with great personal knowledge of a subject don’t copy other people’s work without citing the source, but you did that repeatedly whenever I challenged your claims about Islam.

 

[Montalban]

Well, I know that the anti-Islamic websites that you used to plagiarize on this board say that about Islam. But they aren’t very good sources-and for all your supposed living knowledge of Islam, just a year ago you were literally cutting and pasting what other people wrote, and passing it off as your own research.

Translated: You just don’t understand us!:crying:

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Well, I know that the anti-Islamic websites that you used to plagiarize on this board say that about Islam. But they aren’t very good sources-and for all your supposed living knowledge of Islam, just a year ago you were literally cutting and pasting what other people wrote, and passing it off as your own research.

Just something for AbeOman to consider, since you were claiming to be an expert in Islam. Usually people with great personal knowledge of a subject don’t copy other people’s work without citing the source, but you did that repeatedly whenever I challenged your claims about Islam.

Go away, troll.

 

[Montalban]

No, that’s decidedly not what is going on here.

It’s precisely all that you offer.

All you do is say I’m wrong. You make some claim that something’s explained - which is you and other Moslems just repeating I’m wrong.

You even, quite dishonestly (and you’ve done this before, so it’s no accident) reduce Islamic sites I cite to a ‘google-version’ of Islam

 

[Montalban]

Applied it in the wrong place? How so? It tells Muslims clear to seize and kill those who turn away (after they have emigrated in the way of Allah).

It is a simple case. No ifs no butts. If you think I have applied it in the wrong place - then don’t just say so - please show the evidence.

Don’t you realise you just have. I’ve explained it (trans: I’ve repeated this claim) before

 

[Montalban]

Go away, troll.

He will after a while. When you ask him enough for more info, he can’t respond, then he goes away for a few months - then comes back with the same claims : You just don’t understand us!

 

[pro_universal]

Go away, troll.

I’m going to link some of your many incidents of plagiarism so that we’re clear that this isn’t about name calling, but rather giving honest perspective on your claims to “know Islam better than AbeOman”:

Here’s something you directly cribbed:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1599850&highlight=rodrigo+bivar%26quot%3B+%2B%26quot%3Bcut+paste#post1599850

Here’s you admitting that you cut and pasted, but claiming that you only left out any quotations by accident:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1151343&highlight=accidental+plagiarism#post1151343

And here’s you saying that you did it by accident again:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1633210&postcount=101

There are more out there-just too time consuming to find them all and this is a good sample.

 

[pro_universal]

It’s precisely all that you offer.

All you do is say I’m wrong. You make some claim that something’s explained - which is you and other Moslems just repeating I’m wrong.

You even, quite dishonestly (and you’ve done this before, so it’s no accident) reduce Islamic sites I cite to a ‘google-version’ of Islam

It is quite honest-there are thousands upon thousands of pages of Hadiths. You used a search tool to come up with a few stories contained in them. You did not present a Muslim analysis of those particular hadiths, nor did you even conduct your own-to analyze a piece of writing you have to actually read the context.

The fact that no Muslim on this board has ever agreed that what you say is accurate to the teachings of Islam should be proof enough to you that your claims are totally wrong. Not just disagreed with or unflattering, but wrong.

 

[Montalban]

Not only the Islamic thinkers I’ve cited earlier were in favour of death to apostates.

So was Abu Hanifa (d.767), the founder of Hanifi and Malik ibn Anas (d.795)

Even when Moslem sites try to apologise for this, they accidentally tell the truth…
“There has been a wide variety of opinions by Muslim scholars throughout nearly fourteen centuries concerning punishment for apostasy with the majority of the opinion that apostasy is a capital crime as it threatens the integrity and stability of the Muslim community and state.”
islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article02.shtml

I clarified at the beginning of this study that the Qur’an did not specify a worldly punishment for apostasy; it merely warned against a punishment thereof in the hereafter. I have also pointed out that Muslim jurists cite authentic hadiths to prove their opinion on the punishment to be inflicted upon apostates, and that they, in general, hold that apostates are to be legally killed for their crime of apostasy by virtue of the Prophet’s hadith that says, “Whoever changes his religion, then kill him.”

-Dr. Muhammad Salim Al-`Awwa

islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article01d.shtml##top4

The death penalty with regard to apostasy is to be applied only to those who proclaim their apostasy and call for others to do the same

-Dr. Yusuf Al-Qaradawi

islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article01c.shtml##top3

Malik replied, '(This questioner is) a heretic (zindeeq)[2]I, so kill him[3]

[2] az-Zindeeq: It is a word that came into Arabic from Persian, it was first used by the Muslims to refer to those who believe in two origins: light and darkness, like the Manawiyyah and others. Then its meaning according to their usage evolved to include those who believe in reincarnation, atheists, and anyone else who had misguided beliefs. Then it began to be applied to doubt and anyone who deviated from the rulings of the Religion in beliefs or actions. Refer to al-Mawsoo’atul Muyassarah (1/929), and Tareekhul-Ilhad (p. 14-32) of `Abdur Rahman Badawee.

[3] Here Imam Malik is ordering to carry out Islamic punishments for blasphemy, apostasy, and the likes that is only done in a land ruled by Islam, by the Imaam of the Muslims or one of his official representative.

muslimminds.wordpress.com/?s=apostasy&searchbutton=go%21

 

[Montalban]

It is quite honest-there are thousands upon thousands of pages of Hadiths. You used a search tool to come up with a few stories contained in them. You did not present a Muslim analysis of those particular hadiths, nor did you even conduct your own-to analyze a piece of writing you have to actually read the context.

The fact that no Muslim on this board has ever agreed that what you say is accurate to the teachings of Islam should be proof enough to you that your claims are totally wrong. Not just disagreed with or unflattering, but wrong.

You mean that you’re objection is that I found Hadiths that prove my point? Or, are you saying that the Hadith give contrary accounts of what you’re supposed to do?

And, this doesn’t even take into account that I cited scholars who agree with the killing of Apostates. I’ve cited some contemporary opinion OF MOSLEMS that show that the majority of scholars have this interpretation.

Deal with it.

 

[Montalban]

I’m going to link some of your many incidents of plagiarism so that we’re clear that this isn’t about name calling, but rather giving honest perspective on your claims to “know Islam better than AbeOman”:

So you’re argument is you’re trolling because of…?

If you don’t address people first time round, why can’t they repeat the evidence? Does repeating it make it false? I don’t argue that it makes it true, but you need to address it.

Here’s something I’ve used before…
Baydawi the great commentator on the Koran said "“Whosover turns back from his belief ( irtada ), openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard”.
muslimunity.blogspot.com/2006/05/islam-simplified.html

It’s still true. But at least you’ve now come up with a novel way of not addressing it this time round!

 

[Montalban]

[SIGN]Troll alert![/SIGN]

There are more out there-just too time consuming to find them all and this is a good sample.

If only spent any time actually addressing what evidence is before you.

 

[Montalban]

Is this another way of saying we dont understand you… AGAIN???

That’s all they do here.

I, for instance provide more and more evidence and I get the typical Islamic two-step dodge “You just won’t listen”

 

[pro_universal]

Montalban,

let me provide a picture perfect example of how your quotations and lack of extensive reading produce error.

Check out this quote from the first article you posted on apostatesislamonline.net/English/c…rticle02.shtml:

It is inconceivable to attain that peace if a person is forced or coerced into becoming a Muslim or remaining a Muslim against his or her free will. It is also inconceivable to say, “Yes, no one is forced to become a Muslim, but once he or she accepts Islam willingly, it is forbidden to reject it.” Such an argument under whatever excuse or justification is inconsistent with the many conclusive verses in the Qur’an on freedom of belief which is above all an inner feeling of acceptance and conviction.

Note the section with conclusions:

The preponderance of evidence from both the Qur’an and Sunnah indicates that there is no firm ground for the claim that apostasy is in itself a mandatory fixed punishment (hadd), namely capital punishment.

By not reading the whole article, and quoting only a piece, you actually made it look as if this article were agreeing with your claims on the penalty for changing one’s religion in Islam. In fact, it says the opposite.

This pattern continues. Your second article, islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article01d.shtml##top4,far from what you implied with your selective quoting, actually says:

Although we admit that apostasy is a crime, I doubt that the penalty that Islam states for it is capital punishment. I further doubt the inclusion of this form of punishment as a legal penalty prescribed by Shari`ah. The late Sheikh Mahmoud Shaltut also held the same doubts, which he expressed in one of his writings.

The third article similarly demands an act of treason to invoke the death penalty-but it is more broad in its definition of treason than the first two.

Your last link is not a Muslim comment, but rather a quote of some ancient texts that you haven’t read. It is the kind of thing that you need people like the first three authors you cited to help you understand-otherwise it doesn’t make sense.

In sum, you just posted 3 Muslim positions on apostates and death, and two of them directly refuted your claims, with the third one not being as clearly in contradiction.

See how bad information can be when you don’t read the whole book?

 

[pro_universal]

So you’re argument is you’re trolling because of…?

If you don’t address people first time round, why can’t they repeat the evidence? Does repeating it make it false? I don’t argue that it makes it true, but you need to address it.

Here’s something I’ve used before…
Baydawi the great commentator on the Koran said "“Whosover turns back from his belief ( irtada ), openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard”.
muslimunity.blogspot.com/2006/05/islam-simplified.html

It’s still true. But at least you’ve now come up with a novel way of not addressing it this time round!

You are not quoting an Islamic source, but actually a comment posted in response to the blog by a guy named “snake oil salesman”…

Seriously, you think “snake oil salesman”'s analysis of the relevant texts is more authoritative than the scholars you just quoted from islamonline?

 

[Montalban]

Montalban,

let me provide a picture perfect example of how your quotations and lack of extensive reading produce error.

Firstly, thank you for actually taking the time to address what I wrote. It’s a miracle, but unfortunately, it seems because you thought you could score points.

Secondly, my point is still valid; the point being that they accept that the majority of scholars support death to apostates. This is what I had said. This is what they agree on.

Thirdly, it’s not an error. I noted at the beginning of mentioning it that there was a grain of truth in that article.

Read what he says in the conclusion…
Although this contradicts the opinion of the majority of jurists, as they believe that inflicting the death penalty on apostates is obligatory, while we see that it is only permissible, I think that the evidences I cite in favor of my views sufficiently support it. Should this view prove to be right, I praise Allah Almighty for guiding me to it; and should it prove to be wrong, I ask Allah to forgive me.
islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article01d.shtml##top4

In other words he accepts that his opinion is a minority opinion.

And his difference is simply that the death penalty is not mandatory, but is permissable.



Are they still to be punished? Are they still being ‘compelled’ to remain Moslem?

That’s the point of the ‘no compulsion in religion’ bit we’re arguing about. At best you can say “Hey, there’s one guy here who still thinks that they should be compelled, only not by facing death”… at least not in a *mandatory * case; but even then death is still an option. How you think this helps your case is unknown to me.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I’m going to link some of your many incidents of plagiarism so that we’re clear that this isn’t about name calling, but rather giving honest perspective on your claims to “know Islam better than AbeOman”:

Here’s something you directly cribbed:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1599850&highlight=rodrigo+bivar%26quot%3B+%2B%26quot%3Bcut+paste#post1599850

Here’s you admitting that you cut and pasted, but claiming that you only left out any quotations by accident:

And here’s you saying that you did it by accident again:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1633210&postcount=101

There are more out there-just too time consuming to find them all and this is a good sample.

See what I mean about you trolling? You can’t defend your religion so you slime your opponent. Yeah, go away, troll.

 

[Montalban]

You are not quoting an Islamic source, but actually a comment posted in response to the blog by a guy named “snake oil salesman”…

Seriously, you think “snake oil salesman”'s analysis of the relevant texts is more authoritative than the scholars you just quoted from islamonline?

I make no bones about it being a ‘blogspot’; people can make of that what they will. I’ve given you classic Islamic opinion, modern Islamic opinion, and ‘opinion’. If I wished deception I’d not have linked it for you to check up on.

 

[Montalban]

See what I mean about you trolling? You can’t defend your religion so you slime your opponent. Yeah, go away, troll.

He’s not addressed whether what you’ve said is true or not. Not at all.

 

[Montalban]

The summary of the argument is.

I say that in Islam you’re made to suffer ‘compulsion’ in religion.

I’ve been told I just don’t understand this.

I note that Isalmic commentators from history have said that Apostates should be killed (if they remain Apostates) - this is a clear ‘compulsion’

I’ve cited Moslem commentators from the current era who note that this opinion has been the majority opinion - even if they themselves hope to accomadate other ideas - one simply wished to say that Apostates don’t need to face death.