My thoughts so far on the Catholic Church

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batman1973 said:
(2 Cor.5:17)Will I still sin? Yeah. I’m human. I will still sin. But, I will be forgiven because of Jesus. God will welcome me into His Kingdom, because of His Son, not for anything I did. Honestly, I don’t know who will be more suprised to see me in Heaven: Me, or God.
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batman you should take in the whole of the gospel teachings not just what makes you clean and forgiven. The following scripture may shed some light on your misgivings of the great love Jesus and his ministry of reconciliation;

Hebrews 10:26 **If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins *27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.t 28 Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.u 29 Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?

I know you don’t want to be held in contempt for the Son of God? by insulting the spirit of grace? Thinking that you can sin after you have been saved do you? This is why Jesus established the ministry of reconciliation and preached to the dead who were in “hades” what the Church calls purgatory. There’s no escaping God during the judgement;

If you die with any venial sin that is not deadly, purgatory that the blood of Jesus forgives in every age will be there to take you into heaven, by purging your soul of any non deadly sins (venial) on your soul. These are the only ones that are forgiven in the next age, but sins against the HolySpirit will not be forgiven in the next age;

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
17All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

"The Lord will judge his people.”
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Don’t confuse the blood that saves one to enter the kingdom of God which removes all sin and punishment of sin, with the ministry of reconciliation for those who “are working out their salvation with fear and trembling”.

You can only be baptized once these are the infants in Christ who are on the milk. Pleasse don’t confuse these little ones on the milk with those who are “eating the meat of the Gospel” who are already saved in working out their salvation with fear and trembling in the ministry of reconciliation.

Why would Jesus leave his power and authority for His Catholic Church to forgive sins and retain them? If his one sacrifice did everything including forgiving “unconfessed, unrepented” mortal sin after one is saved? Why would Jesus insitute the biblical ministry of reconciliation? This divine ministry of Jesus priesthood reaches into the next the age “purgatory”.
 
I have a question about 1 Cor. 3:15. From what I’ve read in the Bible
This verse when read in context from verse 12-15, it speaks of our
works being burned up, not our sins. Also, doesnt 2 Cor. 5:8
Say that we are absent from the body is to be present before the Lord?(KJV)
 
batman1973 said:
I have a question about 1 Cor. 3:15. From what I’ve read in the Bible
This verse when read in context from verse 12-15, it speaks of our
works being burned up, not our sins. Also, doesnt 2 Cor. 5:8
Say that we are absent from the body is to be present before the Lord?(KJV)
Click to expand...
Your works are sins in this context.
 
batman1973 said:
I have a question about 1 Cor. 3:15. From what I’ve read in the Bible
This verse when read in context from verse 12-15, it speaks of our
works being burned up, not our sins. Also, doesnt 2 Cor. 5:8
Say that we are absent from the body is to be present before the Lord?(KJV)
Click to expand...
Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary, 1 Cor 3, Ver. 12-15:

Here the apostle speaks of fire in a more ample signification: of a fire which shall not only try, and examine, but also burn, and punish the builders, who notwithstanding shall also, after a time, escape from the fire, and be saved by fire, and in the day of the Lord, that is, after life (for the time of this life is the day of men). Divers of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment for the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to a reward in heaven, (into which nothing defiled or unclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and in such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven.
 
batman1973 said:
I have a question about 1 Cor. 3:15. From what I’ve read in the Bible
This verse when read in context from verse 12-15, it speaks of our
works being burned up, not our sins. Also, doesnt 2 Cor. 5:8
Say that we are absent from the body is to be present before the Lord?(KJV)
Click to expand...
Batman…if you read the article by Scott Hahn back in post 15…this is explained also…with the theological background.

But here it is…and I hope you read it…catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Let’s take a look at perhaps another very crucial passage in this regard. First Corinthians, chapter 3. I must admit that theologically and psychologically 1st Corinthians 3 basically sealed it up. It was all sewn up for me when I worked through this, praying, studying, pondering. I think it’s strong and clear. In 1st Corinthians 3, he’s talking about how we are in Christ. We’re temples with Christ. We’re His body and yet we are also temples as well. We are God’s field, His building, and in verse 9, the kind of building we are. There’s a temple and he goes on to describe how we have got to be careful then. If we are all God’s temples, temples of the Holy Spirit, we better be very circumspect and prudent about the way we build.

“According to the grace of God given me,” verse 10, “like a skilled master builder, I laid a foundation and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.” The foundation work is Christ. Make no mistake about that. Our works are not our foundation unless our house is going to crumble. Then we and our works are not the foundation, but Christ is the foundation. “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become manifest for the day will disclose it. Because it will be revealed with fire and the fire will test which sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.” In addition to salvation, he will receive a reward: thrones, crowns, whatever you want to say.

“If any man’s work is burned up,” the wood, the hay and the straw, “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss.” Notice that wood is not as flammable as hay is consumed. So there are degrees of good works, gold and silver and so on, and degrees of venial sins. Jesus even talked about somebody would receive fewer stripes than another person. He talks about how, I think in Matthew 5, you won’t get out until you pay the last farthing or the last penny. So it depends on what we have done, what we will do because we have got to be purified in the Holy Spirit of God, which is fiery love. We have got to take up our cross. We are saved by Christ who is our foundation, but we have to build and what we build has to undergo the fiery judgment on the day.

Now the day might refer to the day of judgment, but from earliest times people have seen that Paul is also teaching that the day of judgment is anticipated actually and really and provisionally when each person dies. That’s when Jesus comes for us. We speak of the “coming of the Lord.” Well, a kind of secondary coming is when He comes for us, and the day of judgment is when we die and appear before him in that sense. “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss,” or change the emphasis. “…he will suffer, loss.” Though he himself will be saved, he will have suffering to undergo but only as through fire. But you might say, “Well, it’s only wood and stubble that’s going to be burned up. It’s not him. He is the temple. It isn’t just these externals to him. His soul is the temple of the Holy Spirit. His soul is made of parts for the foundation is Christ, but there is some gold, perhaps some silver, but also some wood and stock in His soul. His soul is built up like a temple with all kinds of combustible elements. He will suffer loss. Though he himself will be saved but only as through fire.”

Well, my first comeback was, “Well, yeah, but that’s an instantaneous process.” Then I’d argue with myself. Okay, but what is an instant? Is it a millisecond? Is it a microsecond? Is it a second, two seconds, three seconds? I mean, let’s face it. We’re finite creatures. It might be a moment, but what happens when you undergo a moment of incredible pain versus, say, ten minutes of incredible pleasure? Do the ten minutes go by like a second? Yeah. And does that second go by like ten minutes? At least. We’re finite creatures going through time. We don’t do things outside of time. We are purified in time.

Now maybe for you it will be a second. But unless I really clean up my act more, it’s going to be more than a second, I suspect, for me. I believe that God’s grace is going to work through me and do all kinds of things. So, God forbid, we should never assume that we have to go through purgatory. He gives us the grace of vision, not only to avoid purgatory but to cooperate with that grace and to live a Christ- like life so we don’t have to settle for purgatory and I, with God’s grace, won’t. But the fact is those who will go through this fiery ordeal will suffer in fire the spirit of judgment.
 
Pablope, I have read the article. bit long winded, but informative. So, if I understood correctly, Purgatory isn’t punishment. If that’s the case, I’ll go along with that. I can agree with a refinement, not punishment. I will still hold that Jesus death takes away the punishment.
 
batman1973 said:
Pablope, I have read the article. bit long winded, but informative. .
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Great…Batman…👍 I think this was originally a talk that was transcribed…that is why it seems that way…but I would suggest you read it again…and reflect on some important points Hahn makes…like this below:

Understand that this is restitution. This is not in a sense forgiveness. Only forgiven souls enter purgatory. This is restitution…Now wait a second. I think it was William James or some Harvard philosopher who said, “I would sin like David, if only I could repent like David.” Well you can’t gauge your repentance in advance. That actually adds malice to whatever evil you do.

We learn obedience through what we suffer, and if we suffer in the flesh we have ceased from sin. If we take short cuts, God in His mercy will give us summer school to make up for that one class we might have skipped or that one course we might have flunked. We’ll move on to the next grade for sure, but we need a little bit of remedial education. Our opportunity to merit is only on earth because here we can choose to suffer. In purgatory we only accept it. There’s no merit. Glory, sure, but no additional merit. In this earth the Church Militant acquires merits, not merits in addition to Christ, but Christ’s merit bestowed in filling us up, bestowed upon us. When God crowns our works, He is only crowning His own achievements. When He rewards our works, He is only crowning His own work in us through the Holy Spirit, the life of Christ being lived out in us.
So, if I understood correctly, Purgatory isn’t punishment. If that’s the case, I’ll go along with that. I can agree with a refinement, not punishment. I will still hold that Jesus death takes away the punishment
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It may be refinement…but the CC has not defined the process of purgation, I think…how God does this has not been revealed.
 
=batman1973;8991258]I have a question about 1 Cor. 3:15. From what I’ve read in Re: My thoughts so far on the Catholic Church
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I have a question about 1 Cor. 3:15. From what I’ve read in the Bible
This verse when read in context from verse 12-15, it speaks of our
works being burned up, not our sins. Also, doesnt 2 Cor. 5:8
Say that we are absent from the body is to be present before the Lord?(KJV
Click to expand...
***My DEAR friend in Christ,

In this particular application the term “works” refers precisely to BOTH works and sin***. [One cause the other].

That said the passage refers to NEITHER directly; and BOTH in directly. The Direct reference is the “ Lasting EFFECTS” caused by there natural consequences on others. Sin “is a public affair.” Seldom [very seldom] do our sins not in some way have an effect of others.

I gave examples in an earlier POST. Stealing, adultery, gossip are NOT private sins. No they effect those around us as well; so in addition to Confessing them and having them remitted; there exist what we might call a “guilt layer” that too must be repaid. It is this aspect of sin that exist even AFTER sins themselves are forgiven and Forgotten. God’s Divine Justice requires that FULL payment be made by us either in this life or in Purgatory after death.

BECAUSE GOD IS PERFECT; ONLY PERFECT THINGS CAN BE IN HIS DIVINE PRESENCE.

**As for 2nd. Cor. 5-8 [verses 6-9] “**So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.”

The reference here is to what “we are” after our mortal bodies die. Like God Himself we too then become “Spiritual beings.” It is these “THINGS” that allow us to emulate God, “made in His image”; Gen. 1:26-27. Our minds, intellects, and our freewills are Spiritual Things permanently attached to our SOULS. They are needed to 1. Know God 2. To either Suffer or 3. Worship God for eternity. So Like God they are “infinite” parts of our being.”

***We are and SHALL BE separated from our physical bodies until the “Final Judgment” when God will recreate our physical bodies; make them PERFECT and reunite then with our Spiritual Attributes.

God Bless,
Pat***
 
An update: I have receiving emails from PJM on catechism. These are extremely wonderful, and helpful.I am coming to the belief that the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ. However, in reading posts here on CAF, I have read some comments that I can put aside or ignore: I read that there is a petition to make Mary a Co-Mediatrix and a Redemptress. I can’t tell you how many warning bells and red flags came up on that alone. I believe that Mary is blessed, but to be put on equal, or higher footing than her Son? No,no, no A Billion times NO! That’s bad form. Elevating a sinful(and yes, she was a sinner, who needed her Son’s saving Grace like us all. Please prayerfully Read Romans 3:23) person to that of Our Lord and savior, is(IMHO) cultic. Another topic is Hell. Hell is not only real, it’s a real piece of “real estate”. It’s described in Sacred Scripture as a Lake of Fire. Jesus spoke almost more about hell than He did heaven. Why? Because it’s real. It’s not a state of being. Remember the Apostle’s Creed" He descended into Hell, and on the 3rd day rose again? If hell’s not an actual place, than The Creed is wrong. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and several other cults don’t believe in a literal hell either. These are some serious issues that I will need addressed before I can swim the Tiber.
 
batman1973 said:
An update: I have receiving emails from PJM on catechism. These are extremely wonderful, and helpful.I am coming to the belief that the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ. However, in reading posts here on CAF, I have read some comments that I can put aside or ignore: I read that there is a petition to make Mary a Co-Mediatrix and a Redemptress. I can’t tell you how many warning bells and red flags came up on that alone. I believe that Mary is blessed, but to be put on equal, or higher footing than her Son? No,no, no A Billion times NO! That’s bad form. Elevating a sinful(and yes, she was a sinner, who needed her Son’s saving Grace like us all. Please prayerfully Read Romans 3:23) person to that of Our Lord and savior, is(IMHO) cultic.
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I can certainly understand your reservations about those titles being given to Mary, but I think most of that comes from what you’ve learned in Mormonism (like about “heavenly mother”), and possibly in other non-Catholic churches, who all teach that Mary was a “sinner” like the rest of us. She wasn’t, because God would not/could not be born to a ‘sinful woman’, nor take on sinful flesh to be His Own. Mary is the New Eve (and Jesus is the New Adam), who was favored to be created perfectly pure, without Original Sin, just like the first Eve was perfectly pure before the fall. But, unlike the first Eve, Mary never sinned.

I might suggest doing a little more reading about what the Catholic Church actually teaches about Mary, before you let that be a stumbling block to your journey across the Tiber. She is much more special in the eyes of God than any of us could ever hope to be. But at the same time, those titles would most certainly not put Mary on equal footing with God, nor would it ever put her in a position above Jesus, by any stretch of the imagination. She is our true Heavenly Mother (the real Queen of Heaven, as the Mother of the King, according to Jewish Tradition) and the Mother of God (because she gave birth to Jesus, Who really is God), but she is certainly not equal to God, any more than any of us can ever be. She is just the most perfect human being that was ever created by God.

But, she was the very first to follow Jesus, along with St. Joseph. They knew exactly Who He was and what it meant for Him to come into the world to save all mankind, and what an unbelievable honor it was for them to be chosen to raise and care for Him. Mary was always the closest person to Jesus throughout His entire life on earth. She suffered more than we can ever imagine, just by watching Him being crucified. Being His mother, she did everything that she did, and gave her entire life just to serve Him, even though He was her Son. She always put Him and His needs, above hers. She always leads people to Him, just as she did when they were still on earth. But, she would never do anything to take the attention away from Him. She loved Him more than anyone that ever lived. She would never take anything away from Him.
batman1973 said:
Another topic is Hell. Hell is not only real, it’s a real piece of “real estate”. It’s described in Sacred Scripture as a Lake of Fire. Jesus spoke almost more about hell than He did heaven. Why? Because it’s real. It’s not a state of being. Remember the Apostle’s Creed" He descended into Hell, and on the 3rd day rose again? If hell’s not an actual place, than The Creed is wrong. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and several other cults don’t believe in a literal hell either. These are some serious issues that I will need addressed before I can swim the Tiber.
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Do you think Catholics don’t believe in a literal hell? I can assure you, we most certainly do! :bigyikes:
 
Telstar said:
I can certainly understand your reservations about those titles being given to Mary, but I think most of that comes from what you’ve learned in Mormonism (like about “heavenly mother”),

She is our true Heavenly Mother
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Wait. Did I miss something?
 
batman1973 said:
Wait. Did I miss something?
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The incorrect thinking is your quote here…

“I believe that Mary is blessed, but to be put on equal, or higher footing than her Son? No,no, no A Billion times NO!”🤷

No John Paul II is Blessed, Cardinal John Henry Neumann is Blessed etc. Biblically speaking Our Lady is the Neck of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. All Grace passes through Mary because all Grace passed through Mary in the fully Divine/Human Natures of Jesus Christ.

The Blessed Mother “interceeds” for mankind. When you say Mary She echos Jesus.

When God chose to Redeem mankind, He chose Mary then humbled Himself by placing Himself in Her arms. Thus instead of God looking down at mankind, Mary looked at God in Her arms. Thats how much Faith He had in Her, thats how much you should have. She is the first disciple of Jesus Christ. God chose to come to us through the Blessed Mother thus She is the New Ark, so to He gives mankind a perfect path to come to Him.

Jesus lived on earth 33 years, of that He spent 30 of it with Mary and Joseph. So to He lived what He taught about the importance of the family. Who would know Her Son Jesus better than Mary?

Marys final words in Scripture are “Do whatever He tells you!” The process of understanding Jesus is the human process of understanding Mary in her virtues and following of Her Son to His desire for mans salvation.

"Mary is the great mold of God. Through her God fashioned by the Holy Spirit the human nature of Jesus Christ, who is true God by the hypostatic union. Now, through her he also fashions through grace, men who are images of his Son. No godly feature is missing from this mystical mold. Everyone who casts himself into it and allows himself to be molded will acquire every feature of Jesus Christ with little pain or effort: as befits his weak human condition. He will take on a faithful likeness to Jesus with no possibility of distortion, for the devil has never had, and never will have, any access to Mary, in whom there is not the least stain of sin.

There has never been, and there will never be, either in God’s creation or in his mind, a mere creature in whom he is so honored as he is in the Blessed Virgin Mary. Not all the the saints together, nor all the cherubim and the highest seraphim in heaven, can equal the glory bestowed upon the soul of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This is because her soul was singularly created to be the vessel of the Holy Spirit. Mary is Gods garden of Paradise. She is his own unspeakable world, into which his Son entered to do wonderful things: to tend it, to perfect it, and to take his delight in it.

Mary is a spiritual world unknown to most mortals here on earth. No one can begin to fathom the depth, or the beauty, or the power, or the complexity of the spirit of even an angel, like a Cherubim or Seraphim. It is even more impossible for men to comprehend the unfathomable perfection’s of the soul of Mary, or the soul of Christ. Christ is one person with the Eternal Word in all it’s fullness, while Mary is the Bride of the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit dwells within her in all his plenitude, her soul is a true City of God. She is the true New Jerusalem in whom God dwells in his fullness: “coming down from heaven like a beautiful bride adorned for her husband.” (Rev. 21:2)

Even the angels and saints in heaven find the depth, and breadth, and beauty of the virtues of the soul of Mary incomprehensible. They remain in a state of holy, perpetual awe at the exquisite perfection’s of the seemingly infinite virtues of her soul. Her soul is the most perfect living image of God “after” Christ’s own soul. The Soul of Christ is one person with the Eternal Divine Word. Mary’s soul was created singularly to be the primary vessel of the Holy Spirit. God exalted Mary so far above the angels, and so vast and incomprehensible is her being, that God has called her his chosen world. Upon seeing Mary, all of heaven exclaims: “Holy, holy, holy”. Mary’s being is exalted above every other being, “except for Jesus Christ himself”. Though all of God’s universe was created for Christ, Mary was singularly created to be the most dearly beloved created companion for Christ. Thus, her soul, as the singular vessel of the of the Holy Spirit, is a divine mirror of the splendor of Christ’s own.

Those who despise Mary are bound by invincible ignorance. They have no idea who, or what they are resisting. Her soul contains the fullness of the glory of the Holy Spirit, and her being is exalted by grace to the right hand of Christ himself." St. Louis DeMontfort

What we see Lucifer refuse to do in pride, so too we see the Angel Gabriel do in obedience through the Annunciation.

Peace
 
=batman1973;9059485]An update: I have receiving emails from PJM on catechism. These are extremely wonderful, and helpful.I am coming to the belief that the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ. However, in reading posts here on CAF, I have read some comments that I can put aside or ignore: I read that there is a petition to make Mary a Co-Mediatrix and a Redemptress. I can’t tell you how many warning bells and red flags came up on that alone. I believe that Mary is blessed, but to be put on equal, or higher footing than her Son? No,no, no A Billion times NO! That’s bad form. Elevating a sinful(and yes, she was a sinner, who needed her Son’s saving Grace like us all. Please prayerfully Read Romans 3:23) person to that of Our Lord and savior, is(IMHO) cultic. Another topic is Hell. Hell is not only real, it’s a real piece of “real estate”. It’s described in Sacred Scripture as a Lake of Fire. Jesus spoke almost more about hell than He did heaven. Why? Because it’s real. It’s not a state of being. Remember the Apostle’s Creed" He descended into Hell, and on the 3rd day rose again? If hell’s not an actual place, than The Creed is wrong. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and several other cults don’t believe in a literal hell either. These are some serious issues that I will need addressed before I can swim the Tiber.
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My dear friend in Christ,

THE BELLS YOUR HEARING ARE FLASE ALARMS:D

This title and position are too not correctly understood by many.

Allow me please to briefly explain:

The title is a honoroum bestowed by the Church who is enlightened abd guided by almighty God.

John.14: 16 to 17 " And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you."… FULFILLED: John.20: 21 to 22 " Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”… John.17:15 to 19 "I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. [Means with My Power and My Authority as God] ***And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. ***

ONLY THEE CC HAS BOTH CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRT TO WARRANTY HER TEACHING THE TRUTHS INSPIRED AND TAUGHT BY GOD…THEREFORE IT IS AN ABSOLUTE IMPOSSIBILITY THAT MOTHER CHURCH CAN TEACH IN ERROR ON ANY FAITH OR MORAL ISSUE. IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE GOD INSURES IT!

The role Mary has is given to her by her son Jesus Matt.28: 18 " And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

Let us be sure we understand God’s RIGHT to do this.

Mary’s Role is limited to "Dispencer of all grace" BUT IT REMAINS JESUS HIMSELF WHO DETERMINES WHO IS OFFERED WHAT. THIS IS YET ANOTHER SINGULAR HONOR BESTOWED UPON HIS MOTHER BY JESUS, WHO IT SEEMS MAY HOLD HER IN HIGHER ESTEEM THAN DO MANY OF HER CHILDREN HERE ON EARTh?:rolleyes:

Faith means and requires a ceretain level of trust:)

**Acts.20: 28 **“Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”

Romans 13: 2 “Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”

GOD BLESS YOU MY Friend!👍

Pat [PJM]
 
Telstar said:
I can certainly understand your reservations about those titles being given to Mary, but I think most of that comes from what you’ve learned in Mormonism (like about “heavenly mother”) She is our true Heavenly Mother
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batman1973 said:
Wait. Did I miss something?
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I don’t think it’s anything that you missed, but something that Joseph Smith’s teachings influenced in your thinking. He ‘created’ his own false version of a ‘heavenly mother’ (most likely by taking that title for Mary from the Catholic Church) because he had to find a way to explain to his followers how ‘heavenly father’ could have produced so many ‘spirit children’ without creating them, himself. Naturally, to his carnal mind, god must have a ‘wife’ in the ‘celestial kingdom’ in order to produce all those children, and since he claimed god was ‘flesh & bone’ and once lived on another planet like earth, he would also have that wife (or wives) with him (eternal marriage). It seems that his preoccupation with sex in this life, greatly influenced his thinking about how to be able to continue his lustful ways (and those of all mankind ~ due to his own perverse thinking) in the ‘celestial kingdom’, because he was totally obsessed with sex.

On the other hand, we have the true Heavenly Mother in Mary. John says that when Jesus was hanging on the cross:[John 19:] [25] Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen.

[26] When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. [27] After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.
Jesus was not just giving His mother to John because of the Jewish tradition. Normally, if that were the case, He would have given her care over to another male family member, either an uncle, brother, cousin, etc… He certainly had male cousins that would have better fit that family role than John, who was not related to Him. But, what Jesus was actually signifying was that He considered His Mother, Mary, to be the true Mother of all of His disciples. Who knew Jesus better than Mary? Who would know what He wanted done, more than she would? If she had taken such good care of Him for His whole life, wouldn’t she take just as good care of all of her adopted children, that He would give to her?

Also, as I said before, Jewish tradition always considered the Mother of the King to be the Queen of the Kingdom of Israel, not his wife. The Queen Mother had a very special influence over the King, that no one else ever had. The people of Israel would often go to the Queen Mother, to ask for favors from the King. Since Jesus is the King of Heaven and earth, that would automatically make Mary His Queen Mother, and all of His followers would consider her to be their Queen Mother, too.

That’s what makes Mary so special in the eyes of God, and in the eyes of all Catholics. She really is the Queen Mother of Heaven, and our Mother. That’s also why we pray to her, to ask for favors from the King, because she has such a great influence over Him. He loves her more than any other human being that has ever lived. Most likely, He won’t refuse her requests, just like when she asked Him to do something about the lack of wine at the Wedding Feast in Cana.
 
So Telestar are you saying if I don’t pray to Mary that Jesus will not listen nor hear me?
 
I still think this Mary thing is way out of line for me. With what I know of Sacred Scripture, it’s not biblical. And, no one, save PJM in an email addressed hell. (Telstar touched it briefly) These are serious issues. I’m beginning to think that maybe becoming LCMS ain’t such a bad idea.
 
batman1973 said:
I still think this Mary thing is way out of line for me. With what I know of Sacred Scripture, it’s not biblical. And, no one, save PJM in an email addressed hell. (Telstar touched it briefly) These are serious issues. I’m beginning to think that maybe becoming LCMS ain’t such a bad idea.
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Luther and the first Protestants, who were all Catholics, believed in everything about Mary what Catholics believe about Mary also.

There are some Lutherans who still believe so and there are those who do not. So, the question you should seek an answer on is…When did the denial of Marian dogmas begin in Protestantism?

This is one of the articles here…I hope you read the whole journal to get a full understanding of the Marian dogmas…look for the one about Mary the Mother of God…chnetwork.org/resources/coming-home-journals/

Whoever possesses a good (firm)
faith, says the Hail Mary without
danger! Whoever is weak in faith
can utter no Hail Mary without
danger to his salvation. (Sermon,
March 11, 1523).
Our prayer should include the
Mother of God…What the Hail
Mary says is that all glory should
be given to God, using these
words: “Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee; blessed art
thou among women and blessed is
the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ.
Amen!” You see that these words
are not concerned with prayer
but purely with giving praise and
honor…We can use the Hail Mary
as a meditation in which we recite
what grace God has given her.
Second, we should add a wish
that everyone may know and respect
her…He who has no faith is
advised to refrain from saying the
Hail Mary. (Personal Prayer Book,
1522).
 
Okay, since no-one wants to tackle hell besides PJM (No offense Pat, I just want other opinions) in an e-mail, I’ll share with you a concern of mine. In an address in July of 1999, Pope John Paul II says “Rather than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.” Sacred Scripture says the exact opposite. Matt. 13:41-42;Matt. 25:41-46; 2 Thess. 1:8; Rev. 14: 10; 20:10-15; 21:8. Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Jews don’t believe in a real literal hell either.Jesus spoke of hell almost as much as He spoke of Heaven. And, the language was specific and graphic. Hell is real. People do go there. To say anything less IMHO is not a “hot” idea.
 
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