Yup, sure is.Is holding hands during the Our Father really a liturgical abuse? We do that at our church - in fact, everywhere I’ve been. Not everyone in the church always does it, but most do.
Be careful. Holding hands is not a “liturgical abuse.” Is it unacceptable? I think so. Does it add to the Mass without approval? Yes. Does it demean the fact that we are united through the Eucharist and not by holding each others hands? Yep. Is it just plain bad manners? Yes. Does it stem largely from ignorance and Protestantism? Sure. Is it a “liturgical irregularity?” Indeed. Is it a liturgical abuse? Nope.
That would depend on who ordained him; if the ordination was by an Orthodox bishop, or by a bishop consecrated by an Orthodx bishop, then the Sacrament would be truly confected, and would not constitute idolatry.
Well, according to Archbishop Chaput of Colorado, the answer is “no”, it is not a liturgucial abuse.Is holding hands during the Our Father really a liturgical abuse? We do that at our church - in fact, everywhere I’ve been. Not everyone in the church always does it, but most do.
Simply put the Catholic Church does not recognize your ecclesiastical group’s orders as being valid. If you feel differently prove it. Give us reference to a document released by the Catholic Church that recognizes the “Primitive Catholic Church” as having valid orders.
This one drives me nuts. The anti-missal bunch are, in one stroke, slamming all hearing impaired people who may need to read from the missal. Or people who can’t make out everything the lector or priest is saying because the church’s acoustics are weird, and use the missal to “fill in the gaps”. Not to mention people like me, who “get” things better from reading than by hearing. If I just hear someone read a reading, it pretty much goes in one ear and out the other; it just doesn’t register with me. If I can read along, however, it’s a whole different story. I’m a visual learner. Does that mean I’m less “involved” with the Mass? I don’t think so.
What I said was “girl altar boys.” And yes, Rome has approved this practice.
I often practice the ministry of “looking down.” When I know a grand abuse is coming, I close my eyes and point them to the floor and focus on just listening.When I catch myself noticing too many “liturgical abuses” during Mass I try to remind myself why I’m there. Most of the “abuses” disappear. Isn’t it amazing just how fast the Holy Spirit can get everybody back in line.
Would you not agree that there is at least a little bit of difference between having a girl serve Mass when they were not allowed to, and sexually abusing tht girl or a boy? Whie I agree that having a girl serve Mass whn not allowed is worng, I have a hard time seeing that as a mortla sin. The other is without any doubt obejectively a mortal sin, and in most jurisdictions is also a felony, subject to time in prison, as opposed to tim in a county jail.What I said was “girl altar boys.” And yes, Rome has approved this practice.
However, when I first witnessed it in my parish in the late 70’s and early 80’s it was indeed an abuse. We only had one girl altar boy in our parish at that time. In fact, I served the altar right along side her on numerous occasions. She was one of my classmates and I was quite smitten with her. She was a cutey.
At that time, that’s all I cared about. I didn’t know it was an abuse. I had no clue our dopey progressive priest was using children to promote his idiotic political agenda. Looking back, I find that just as repulsive as priests who use children to satiate their sexual deviancy.
You are blessed that your EMHC kneel when they enter the sanctuary. Most parishes I’ve been in, the EMHC walk to the altar and stand behind the priest, (no kneeling) usually right after the sign of peace and long before the priest receives.
Regarding the sign of peace, from the GIRM: “The priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary, so as not to disturb the celebration.” It’s when he takes it upon himself to leave the sanctuary that it is an abuse. And yes, the sign of peace is optional.
if he could get away with it? who will stop him? Parish Council, Worship committee, or the Bishop perhaps?
I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Ultimately, the issue of the validity of his orders is not determined by a document from Rome. It is determined by the validity of the orders and consecration of the bishop who ordained him. It would be entirely possible for some of the individuals in his order to have valid orders while the majority do not, depending on how they regulate themselves, and how tightly; if the regulation is loose, or they recognize ordinations through, for example, the Polish National Church or the SSPX, then it is entirley possible that while the group as a whole does not have recognition from Rome, individuals could.
But this FrRob person has not stated anything other than his opinion. And to see him write about the Real Presence as if all was okay, well, that is worrysome at least.
No one would probably stop him bringing back the altar rail if he had enough money to do the reconstruction; if he didn’t, and the parishoners didn’t want it back, they could stop him effectively through dontations or lack thereof.
I don’t disagree that he has stated only his opinion. I was disagreeing with Piraiah Pirana that the request for a document of recognition from Rome was the deciding factor.
Oh, and just how would I go about doing that? Should I write a letter to Rome begging them to acknowledge us for your sake? Perhaps this thought has not occured to you, but some people who are not united with Rome don’t feel that we have a need to have a fancy piece of paper on the wall from anyone else to validate our ministry. “Whoever is not against me is for me.” I believe our Lord said that.
Again, you assume that we are going to take the time to write a big letter to someone in Rome begging them to acknoweldge us. Why on earth should I take my time to do that for someone on an internet message board? I don’t need YOUR approval to practice ministry. Also, your own jurisdiction’s logic concerning holy orders, and it’s recognition of PNCC orders gives a defacto acknowledgement of our own, which among nineteen varying lines includes the PNCC.
I seem very focused on clerical garb and titles? Interesting. So, answer this: should I be forbidden to wear the habit of my religious order in my day to day ministry as a priest? Should I be forbidden to use the title Father? If you say that I should be forbidden from doing both, then there is no point in speaking any further with you. To be honest, I have never met such an intolerant Catholic such as yourself. The local Latin Rite bishop and I are on communication terms, and he even refers to me as Father when he writes to me.
I am not sure about the last sentence here. What is worrisome about the fact that we beliee in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? The Eastern Orthodox do, so do the Oriential Orthodox. Why is it worrisome that we do as well?
Nope. Both involve an adult using a child for their own wicked ends. I’m afraid I can’t speak to whether it’s a mortal sin, not being able to read a man’s heart.
There is absolutely no question in my mind that you would write 70x7 “big letters” if there was even a remote possiblity that the Catholic Church would recognize your Protestant sect as having valid holy orders…