My Top-Ten Liturgical Abuses

[FrRobSST]

Pariah Pirana:

Protestant sect

I believe I have stated this before, and I will state it one more time, you may not consider me Catholic, you may very well consider me a Protestant, but* I* find the term to be utterly inflamitory and highly offensive. DO NOT call me a Protestant again. If you cannot, in conscience, call me Catholic, then call me a Christian.

Your continued inflammitory statements demonstrate a suprising lack of charity, on that I am tankful that most of the rest of the members of your jurisdiction do not share.

As I sit here watching Pope Benedict’s installation Mass, I see your own Cardinals and clergy having far more chairty than I have seen demonstrated by you at any time since I joined this board. I hope you are watching, and taking notes.

Rob+

 

[john_ennis]

A biggy:

(and one that is not often noticed, because it’s not visible)

Many parishes continue the forbidden “experiment” of administering First Communion before (often two years before) preparation for First Confession.

The short-lived, conditional authorization for this was unambiguously withdrawn some thirty years ago, so maybe some clergy just haven’t got the news yet.

Peace.
John

 

[chuffle]

ktm:

Omitting the word “men” from the Creed, as in “for us *men * and for our salvation.”

Oooooooohhhh…I am guilty of that one.

I just can’t bear saying the word “men” in the Creed.

Joe

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

FrRobSST:

I believe I have stated this before, and I will state it one more time, you may not consider me Catholic, you may very well consider me a Protestant, but* I* find the term to be utterly inflamitory and highly offensive. DO NOT call me a Protestant again. If you cannot, in conscience, call me Catholic, then call me a Christian.

Your continued inflammitory statements demonstrate a suprising lack of charity, on that I am tankful that most of the rest of the members of your jurisdiction do not share.

As I sit here watching Pope Benedict’s installation Mass, I see your own Cardinals and clergy having far more chairty than I have seen demonstrated by you at any time since I joined this board. I hope you are watching, and taking notes.

Rob+

You’re on perhaps the premiere Catholic Christian website on the Internet and you refer to yourself as “Fr. Rob Lyons, SST” Only recently did you add the disclaimer that your chosen ecclesiastical group is not part of the Catholic Church. You give the impression that you are a Catholic Priest involved with a society or an order and you’re not. That’s very problematic.

With regard to Christianity. If we take the entire body of Christendom and subtract out all the Catholic Christians, all the Orthodox Christians and perhaps a tiny handful from churches like the Eastern Assyrian Church, etc. we are left with Protestants.

No, I don’t accept the definition of Protestantism from say the Anglican and Lutheran Protestants – I accept the Catholic Church’s definition. So while you might not like that I refer to you as a Protestant, the description appears more than accurate.

 

[m134e5]

FrRobSST:

As I sit here watching Pope Benedict’s installation Mass, I see your own Cardinals and clergy having far more chairty than I have seen demonstrated by you at any time since I joined this board. I hope you are watching, and taking notes.

Rob+

Try to realize that many people on this board are very upset at the way things have been going in the Church. We see what was once the glory of the world, and a respected influence in the world, hated by the world (this is to be expected, but that doesn’t mean we have to enjoy it), and people in the Church taking the side of the world. We see Churches gutted to suit the iconoclasts’ whims- (if they like a simple church, that’s fine, but they shouldn’t try to ruin it for others!). We see all sorts of non-catholic religions being catered to, and nontraditional Catholic practices being introduced and the attitude is “we have to meet people where they are”, but heaven forbid someone wants solemnity and reverence in the liturgy, and respect for the Latin Tradition- that’s “pre-vatican II”. There are also a lot of like-minded people together here- more so than there are in the “real world”- so opinions and frustrations really come out here (also, when you type it is easier to say things as you feel them, and not give much thought to how others will be affected by them).

 

[FrRobSST]

Pariah Pirana:

Only recently did you add the disclaimer that your chosen ecclesiastical group is not part of the Catholic Church.

Untrue. I have always specified that I was not associated with the Churches in Communion with Rome. The byline said “Primitive Catholic Presbyter” and my affiliation was listed in my profile.

You give the impression that you are a Catholic Priest involved with a society or an order and you’re not. That’s very problematic.

I am a priest, and I am involved with a Society, and that is a fact. We happen to disagree over what makes a Catholic. Considering Archbishop Foley today made specific mention of the Old Catholics in attendence at Pope Benedict’s Installation Mass, I see that Rome has no issue with calling people not in communion with her Catholic. This strikes me, on your part, as trying to be more Catholic than the pope.

With regard to Christianity. If we take the entire body of Christendom and subtract out all the Catholic Christians, all the Orthodox Christians and perhaps a tiny handful from churches like the Eastern Assyrian Church, etc. we are left with Protestants.
No, I don’t accept the definition of Protestantism from say the Anglican and Lutheran Protestants – I accept the Catholic Church’s definition. So while you might not like that I refer to you as a Protestant, the description appears more than accurate.

Well, interestingly enough, Archbishop Foley seemed to be respectful of the nuanced references. He never once referred to Archbishop Rowan Williams of Canterbury as a Protestant… in fact, Foley went out of his way to differentiate the Anglicans, Old Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Assyrians, and the like from Protestants, who, in his narration included Methodists, Pentecostals, etc. I’ll stick with the official Vatican line as expressed on television and print.

At any rate, none of this changes the fact that regardless of what you want to call me, I am highly offended to be referred to as a Protestant, considering I am not protesting anything. Again, I ask that regardless of your feelings, you at least do me the common respect of calling me a Christian, and then let’s leave it at that.

It seems to me that you are getting far too much joy out of this constant badgering, and my next step will be to simply put you on ingore.

Rob+

 

[Podo2004]

You know what abuses are in my parish? Nothing compared to what you just listed, but even worse. I don’t know if parents listen during the baptism of their child when it says" You are to be the best teachers in the faith" and that means finding out about your faith! well it’s amazing how uneducated people are today. I saw someone at mass DIP their fingers into the precious blood and bless themselves… I mean come on… Then children making their first communion were playing with/breaking the bread and tossing it on the floor… Just shocking how they would abuse HIS body and blood…
What do u think? And my priest hasn’t done anything about it… and to top it all he wants them to make a 2nd 1st communion with all the other first communicants( they all made it at separate masses)…what sense does that make?
Podo
Abuses can also be created by people who have no knowledge of what they are doing(ex: in the eucharist)

 

[otm]

"

Nope. Both involve an adult using a child for their own wicked ends. I’m afraid I can’t speak to whether it’s a mortal sin, not being able to read a man’s heart.

All sins, disobedience in this case, spring from pride, the first sin. Old Scratch said, “Non serviam.” Fallen creatures that we are, we are loathe to serve anyone, even our Creator. From this pride follow all sorts of nasty sins, some “venial” some “mortal.” However, all sin is loathsome in the sight of God.

A man who would tinker with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by willfully disobeying liturgical rules laid down by his superiors is guilty of sin. Again, only God knows the gravity of that sin.

It would be interesting to discover how many of the convicted pervert priests were also known for their “progressive” and “creative” liturgies. I suspect most. That’s why you don’t hear about it. If most of the perverts were traditionalists or conservatives, you’d have blaring headlines in National Catholic Reporter every week, or however often that rag is published.

I wasn’t speaking of judging the heart, so let’s not play games. Perhaps you would care to outline some work on moral theology which states that haing a girl serve at the altar is objectively a mortal sin? Short of that, I think you are caomparing something that is more bothersome than anything with something that will destroy a child. I have seen the results of what sexual abuse does to children, and i know of at least one young woman who served as an altar girl who now is in a very orthodox order of women.

I take particular offense to you categorizing the two as equal evils, but I will presume that you know nothing of the damage that is done to a child who is sexually abused.

 

[ktm]

chuffle:

Oooooooohhhh…I am guilty of that one.

I just can’t bear saying the word “men” in the Creed.

Joe

hand slap

The use of “men” here is not for the purpose of exluding women! Surely you know that…

 

[msproule]

Here is my list from an earlier thread (in no particular order):

1. Homilies (pardon me…reflections) by the laity
2. Omission of the homily on Sundays
3. Glass (pardon me again…crystal) chalices
4. Improper matter for the host (honey, anyone?)
5. Inclusive language where it is not linguistically accurate
6. Laity brought into the sanctuary for the Consecration
7. Fractioning of the Most Precious Blood after the Consecration
8. Unnecessary utilization of EMHC
9. Omission of the lavabo
10. Not kneeling during the Consecration in absence “good
    reason”

These are just ten of the abuses I have personally witnessed in my little corner of Michigan, nestled on the boundary between the Archdiocese of Detroit and the Diocese of Lansing.

 

[chuffle]

hand slap

The use of “men” here is not for the purpose of exluding women! Surely you know that…

Yeah, I know that. Unfortunately, not everyone takes it that way, and I like to be sensitive to others feelings.

 

[netmilsmom]

msproule:

Here is my list from an earlier thread (in no particular order):

1. Homilies (pardon me…reflections) by the laity
2. Omission of the homily on Sundays
3. Glass (pardon me again…crystal) chalices
4. Improper matter for the host (honey, anyone?)
5. Inclusive language where it is not linguistically accurate
6. Laity brought into the sanctuary for the Consecration
7. Fractioning of the Most Precious Blood after the Consecration
8. Unnecessary utilization of EMHC
9. Omission of the lavabo
10. Not kneeling during the Consecration in absence “good
    reason”

These are just ten of the abuses I have personally witnessed in my little corner of Michigan, nestled on the boundary between the Archdiocese of Detroit and the Diocese of Lansing.

(Hi)
I’ve seen all of yours just a little south.
My favorite is all the First Communicants standing around the Altar during the consecration!!!

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Podo2004:

I saw someone at mass DIP their fingers into the precious blood and bless themselves.… I mean come on… Then children making their first communion were playing with/breaking the bread and tossing it on the floor… Just shocking how they would abuse HIS body and blood…
What do u think? And my priest hasn’t done anything about it… and to top it all he wants them to make a 2nd 1st communion with all the other first communicants( they all made it at separate masses)…what sense does that make?
Podo
Abuses can also be created by people who have no knowledge of what they are doing(ex: in the eucharist)

:bigyikes: :crying:
There is something seriously wrong with your pastor!!! Anyone should be outraged at those abuses, which are obviously the result of a severe lack of catechesis!!! :banghead:

 

[john_ennis]

chuffle:

Yeah, I know that. Unfortunately, not everyone takes it that way, and I like to be sensitive to others feelings.

The council came up with “For us men and for our salvation.”

Yes, we should respect others’ feelings, but it’s often not people’s feelings, but an over-readiness to feel discriminated against, that we’re coddling. If someone is offended by “men” because they can’t simply accept that the word means “men and women,” I don’t think we’re doing them any favor by enabling them. (I wonder if cows’ bodies get offended when we say there are fifty head of cattle in the field. It’s called a synecdoche, if I’m spelling it right.)

Also, this type of scrutinizing has not only led to liturgical language being modified, but also hymns which used to echo Scripture. Scripture reads, “I will raise him up…no one can come to me unless the Father draw him.” But I’m supposed to sing, “I will raise you up…no one can come to me unless the Father beckons.”
Please.

Peace.
John

 

[Dr.Bombay]

otm:

I wasn’t speaking of judging the heart, so let’s not play games. Perhaps you would care to outline some work on moral theology which states that haing a girl serve at the altar is objectively a mortal sin? Short of that, I think you are caomparing something that is more bothersome than anything with something that will destroy a child. I have seen the results of what sexual abuse does to children, and i know of at least one young woman who served as an altar girl who now is in a very orthodox order of women.

I take particular offense to you categorizing the two as equal evils, but I will presume that you know nothing of the damage that is done to a child who is sexually abused.

Why am I not surprised that you would *presume *to know anything about me based on reading a few lines of my witty and insightful badinage on the world wide web?

Take offense all you want. It all boils down to adults using children for their own perversions…sexual, political, theological, whatever.

Sexual abusers = liturgical abusers. Is there a link? Who can say???

 

[msproule]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

My favorite is all the First Communicants standing around the Altar during the consecration!!!

This happened to me a couple of years ago at a weekday Mass. There were only about seven of us there. Despite the uneasy feeling I had about it, we stayed there through the Communion Rite. I was the only one not holding hands during the Our Father.

I have never returned, despite the fact that this was a beautiful, very historic parish near Ann Arbor, MI (the oldest Irish-Catholic parish in Michigan).

 

[malcolm_davies]

hi from australia:

my top ten:

1. praying the rosary in mass
2. reading the parish bulletin in mass
3. having the mobile phone on (at 1st communions we always have to tell people to turn them off)
4. once a year catholics having no idea how to come to communion or receive communion
5. offensive t-shirts (including FCUK a european brand)
6. having young people in a ring around the alter - this has stopped recently
7. persons intincting themselves and the drips of the precious blood going everywhere (particularly distressing for extraordinary ministers because the priests are to timid to tell people to stop)
8. readers rushing with poor reading skills
9. childrens masses with inain music
10. people arriving late & leaving early

 

[amcalabrese]

Luckily, I generally have been lucky. However, when in law school, we had a chaplin who I thought was drafting dangerously close to Arianism and not recognizing the True Presence in his Eucharistic prayer.

 

[netmilsmom]

msproule:

This happened to me a couple of years ago at a weekday Mass. There were only about seven of us there. Despite the uneasy feeling I had about it, we stayed there through the Communion Rite. I was the only one not holding hands during the Our Father.

I have never returned, despite the fact that this was a beautiful, very historic parish near Ann Arbor, MI (the oldest Irish-Catholic parish in Michigan).

Why, that’s just sad.
I really do feel that the more vocal the traditional Catholics get, and with B16 leading the way, we will get more options for the Post Vatican II masses we had in the late 60’s and early 70’s.