My understanding of Mohammad

[nablaise]

After various researching, I am concluding that Mohammad was trying to be for the Arabs What Moses was for the Jews. I think he noted that Arabs are children of Abraham from Hagar, just as Israelis are children of Abraham from Sarah.
Just as Israelis had a great Prophet who helped them to keep their nation and built a prestige for them, so God too must be calling someone among the Arabs to do a similar task for the Arabs. And he did. He united the lost, barbarian, and idolatrous Arabs into one nation, one creed, and one law.
He seemed to be playing Moses and Joshua for the Arabs. Only he did not know where he was going beside that that he had to free his people from idolatry and unite them under one God.

But then he got a terribly deformed idea of God. A God who look worse that the ‘God’ of the Old Testament. I think this is what can be expected of a descendant of a slave woman and who does not see anything wrong with slavery and polygamy. If Abraham was not sinful in exploiting Hagar, then God must be okay with it. If God is okay with it, what do you get from this?
If Abraham was perfect, so we must be like Abraham:
Abraham was involved with four women, so it’s godly to marry four women
Abraham had slaves, so it’s godly to have slaves
Abraham sent Hagar away, so it’s okay to divorce or send away.

Clearly the Arabian Christian heretics around Mohammad did not know or did not clarify enough for him that Abraham was great but not perfect. He made mistakes we should not imitate. But now, every Muslim is basically stuck in the times of Abraham or of Mohammad. Can you be more perfect than Mohammad?

For Muslims: Do you really believe that Mohammad or any Prophet you acknowledge is perfect? If yes, isn’t this prophet God since only God is perfect? if not, if no Prophet is perfect, can’t God make you more perfect than any other Prophet? if not why? if yes, how do you know that you are still in the ways of God if you had passed the standard of the most perfect Prophet you acknowledge?

For Christians: I believe we have a great duty to learn and live out our Faith. Love is our Faith. Like Marry, we must magnify the Lord. If we don’t do it, our Muslim brothers will never see that there is better ways and therefore their ‘perfect’ doctrine is not perfect because there are better things. Only love can show these better things and magnify them in real life.

 

[jakasaki]

God **spoke **to Moses

God **never **spoke to mohamad

 

[rikkk1958]

You have a point with this thread, however, the ascension of Muhammed to his alleged prophetic status seems to be weird. His confrontation with an angel is weird. His stories, and stories told by his supporters are weird. Muhammed became a leader of the Arabs by way of pride, and jealousy of the Christians and Jews. His limited knowledge (his caravan days listening to Missionaries) of the Scriptures made him popular to make him a leader although some failures in the beginning of his quest for glory. For me, he made up stories to make him respected until some of his teachings became the “law” of the land (Islamic Law). The Arabian Peninsula longed for a government at that time.

 

[gmcbroom]

Did any of the Angels in the Old and New Testaments ever queeze their messengers like Mohammad? I know the Angels did scare them by their appearence, but squeeze them?Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[Publisher]

Did any of the Angels in the Old and New Testaments ever queeze their messengers like Mohammad? I know the Angels did scare them by their appearence, but squeeze them?Peace be with you
gmcbroom

Don’t know about “squeezing”…but Jacob and his angel fought and wrestled for hours.

 

[hamba2han]

To those who keep asking this question of why Angel Gabriel caught and pressed the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the cave, I would say that the answer to your question is really in the Old Testament:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." … (Deuteronomy 18:18)

There is a very, very notable difference between this first meeting of Angel Gabriel with Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) with what the New Testament says about the visit of Angel Gabriel to deliver to Mary the news of the coming of her son Jesus (pbuh).

The difference is just so obvious and self-explanatory to me that I wonder why Christians do not see it… or perhaps it is more likely that they do not WANT to see it!

Anyhow, do let me know if you require help spotting this HUMONGOUS difference.

 

[gmcbroom]

Hamba2han,
All the Old Testament Prophets do this. That isn’t enough. More than one Old Testament reference referred to Jesus Christ.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[nablaise]

You have a point with this thread, however, the ascension of Muhammed to his alleged prophetic status seems to be weird. His confrontation with an angel is weird. His stories, and stories told by his supporters are weird. Muhammed became a leader of the Arabs by way of pride, and jealousy of the Christians and Jews. His limited knowledge (his caravan days listening to Missionaries) of the Scriptures made him popular to make him a leader although some failures in the beginning of his quest for glory. For me, he made up stories to make him respected until some of his teachings became the “law” of the land (Islamic Law). The Arabian Peninsula longed for a government at that time.

Yes, there is a lot of weirdness, however, I don’t think he intentionally made up stories.
It is not uncommon for Christians (especially from sects) to claim having visions from God and to claim that they were appointed for a particular mission. These people don’t do things intentionally. They just deceive themselves one way or an other.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, at the time of Mohammad, Arabia was free from occupation by the Roman Empire from West, and by the Persian Empire from the East. Since in the Roman Empire heresies were greatly discouraged and Christians were heavely persecuted in Persia, Arabia proved a great refuge for all early heresies. It was known as ‘the mother of heresies’. Many Christians sects were there(Arians, Nostarianism, and Monophisites).

I think Mohammad had embraced Christianity, but a combination of beliefs which did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. Mohammad clearly accepted Jesus as a savior but a different type of savior than modern Christian generally acknowledge. So he believed in angels and since he prayed a lot, it is not a surprise that such a person can believe to receive something from God. I think he picked up knowledge here and there and as they made sense to him, he dictated them to his friends as citations of the Koran.

 

[Sister_Amy]

God **spoke **to Moses

God **never **spoke to Mohammad

I’m sure it was an accident that you forgot to capitalize the name “Muhammad.” I corrected it for you.

God never spoke to any prophet except for Moses. It’s a special distinction given to Moses, actually, that he is the one to whom God spoke. In 4:164, كلّم الله موسى تكليما. (translated: “Allah spoke to Moses directly.”)

 

[gmcbroom]

Exodus 3.2
There an angel of the Lord appeared to him in fire flaming out of a bush.

So in essence God was speaking through and angel to Moses.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[jakasaki]

I’m sure it was an accident that you forgot to capitalize the name “Muhammad.” I corrected it for you.

God never spoke to any prophet except for Moses. It’s a special distinction given to Moses, actually, that he is the one to whom God spoke. In 4:164, كلّم الله موسى تكليما. (translated: “Allah spoke to Moses directly.”)

Amy - it is against forum rules to change the post of another member.

I did not forget to capitalize anything.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Amy - it is against forum rules to change the post of another member.

I did not forget to capitalize anything.

I’m sure that you’re mistaken.

 

[nablaise]

Mohammad was a courageous person but in great spiritual darkness. He tried to imitate great Israeli leaders, but he called himself the seal of Prophets.
All previous Prophet knew that they were not perfect and provided for their imperfection by acknowledging that others more perfect than them will come and that eventually the perfect one will come.
You can’t say that you are not perfect and then say that you are the seal of the Prophets. How is then God supposed to grow humanity. Muslims are basically condemned to be no better than Mohammad.
This is very sad, especially when I remember this quote apparently from St. Peter reported by Clement of Rome:

Chapter 33. Abraham: His Posterity.

“Chapter 33. Abraham: His Posterity.
Therefore Abraham, when he was desirous to learn the causes of things, and was intently pondering upon what had been told him, the true Prophet appeared to him, who alone knows the hearts and purpose of men, and disclosed to him all things which he desired. He taught him the knowledge of the Divinity; intimated the origin of the world, and likewise its end; showed him the immortality of the soul, and the manner of life which was pleasing to God; declared also the resurrection of the dead, the future judgment, the reward of the good, the punishment of the evil,— all to be regulated by righteous judgment: and having given him all this information plainly and sufficiently, He departed again to the invisible abodes. But while Abraham was still in ignorance, as we said to you before, two sons were born to him, of whom the one was called Ismael, and the other Heliesdros. From the one are descended the barbarous nations, from the other the people of the Persians, some of whom have adopted the manner of living and the institutions of their neighbours, the Brachmans. Others settled in Arabia, of whose posterity some also have spread into Egypt. From them some of the Indians and of the Egyptians have learned to be circumcised, and to be of purer observance than others, although in process of time most of them have turned to impiety what was the proof and sign of purity.”

 

[Sister_Amy]

Exodus 3.2
There an angel of the Lord appeared to him in fire flaming out of a bush.

So in essence God was speaking through and angel to Moses.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

No, you must actually continue reading. The angel is what appeared as fire, but clearly God spoke. In the same chapter, “God spoke” and “God said” and “The LORD said.”

Read for yourself in Exodus 3:4-6

 

[Sister_Amy]

In all my study of Islam, I never hear Muslim scholars describing prophets as being “perfect.” In fact, I’m not sure the Qur’an does that either.

Am I wrong? Someone can correct me–if you can find a place in the Qur’an where any prophet is described as “perfect.”

I only found it to refer to Allah, the favors of Allah, the actions of Allah, the Qur’an, but never to people.

So I don’t know why the OP starts the argument with accusing Muslims of believing in “perfect” prophets if Islam doesn’t actually teach any such thing.

 

[jakasaki]

I’m sure that you’re mistaken.

Amy -

I am not mistaken and before you start to derail this thread, I don’t see you commenting on “elwill’s” post regarding “captilazing” names and correcting your fellow muslim poster…

Here is one example from one of his posts:

i want clear answer please , do you believe that **allah **encourage **muslims **to be killers ?

is this commandment "“Thou shalt not kill”. means that you can’t kill your enemy in the battlefield and that you are not allowed to defend yourself and your country and that you are not allowed to punish the crimers killers by death punishment ?

how **mosas **(pbuh) interpreted this commandment practically , do you think that he disobeyed his lord in this one , because i think that you know that he engaged in wars , many prophets after him engaged in wars either as **david **(pbuh) for example

antichrist will be killed by **jesus **(pbuh) , can you consider it violating for the commandment , don’t you believe that **jesus **will return and kill the antichrist ?

Back to the thread at hand.

 

[nablaise]

In all my study of Islam, I never hear Muslim scholars describing prophets as being “perfect.” In fact, I’m not sure the Qur’an does that either.

Am I wrong? Someone can correct me–if you can find a place in the Qur’an where any prophet is described as “perfect.”

I only found it to refer to Allah, the favors of Allah, the actions of Allah, the Qur’an, but never to people.

So I don’t know why the OP starts the argument with accusing Muslims of believing in “perfect” prophets if Islam doesn’t actually teach any such thing.

I am using the word ‘perfect’ mainly to recall the degree of imitation that Islam seems to require towards Prophets especially Muhammad. But I actually asked whether you believe him to be perfect or not.
If he is not perfect then and is also said to be the seal of the Prophets, doesn’t this mean that you can’t possibly have a higher model than what you already have? Doesn’t this means that no human can be better than the Prophets you already acknowledge? If this is the case, are you really sure God is bound by such limitations? why can’t God guide to his people to higher perfections than those Prophets?

 

[gmcbroom]

Sister Amy,
I read what you suggested. It seems at least acccording to the footnotes I’m reading in the NAB Bible that it could go either way.
3.2 An angel of the Lord: the visual form under which God appeared and spoke to men is referred to indiferently in some Old Testament texts either as God’s Angel or as God himself.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[Sister_Amy]

Amy -

I am not mistaken and before you start to derail this thread, I don’t see you commenting on “elwill’s” post regarding “captilazing” names and correcting your fellow muslim poster…

Here is one example from one of his posts:

Back to the thread at hand.

The distinction between you and he is that he left all the names without capitalization, whereas you mistakenly left the distinction of only one name. I can’t believe you did it deliberately, because that would be discourteous and undoubtedly unChristian, wouldn’t it?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I am using the word ‘perfect’ mainly to recall the degree of imitation that Islam seems to require towards Prophets especially Muhammad. But I actually asked whether you believe him to be perfect or not.
If he is not perfect then and is also said to be the seal of the Prophets, doesn’t this mean that you can’t possibly have a higher model than what you already have? Doesn’t this means that no human can be better than the Prophets you already acknowledge? If this is the case, are you really sure God is bound by such limitations? why can’t God guide to his people to higher perfections than those Prophets?

Eh? Who picked the prophets, and what’s their job anyway?