My view on the SSPX-"scandal"

[LutheranDK]

I’m intrigued:

The media, as well as liberal RC groups, gets all hyped up about the lifting of the excommunication of a Bishop who has denied the Holocaust.

Some liberals have said that the Vatican should also lift the excommunication of women priests, and their supporters, because it has lifted the excommunication of someone who denies the Holocaust.

The problem with this act of a crybaby is, IMHO, that those who demand this completely ignore the reason WHY the excommunications of the SSPX (as far as I know: The entire “organization” = all its clergy, and not just Bishop Williamson) were lifted.
Because as far as I have understood it, Williamson’s erronous views on the Shoah had NOTHING to do with the lifting of excommunication, nor had any such views anything to do with the reason the Bishops were excommunicated in the first place.

The reason the “founding members” of SSPX were excommunicated, was that they ordained priests and bishops without the go-ahead of the hierarchy of the RC church.

The reason women priests, and their supporters, are excommunicated, is that they profane the priesthood by trying to make it another battlefield for the spreading “anything you can do, I can do just as well (or better)”-attitude of feminism.
And, as an addition, because in taking the action of being ordained/ordaining, they have basically given the RC church the finger.

Now, I do not understand how the Vatican can suddenly decide that SSPX should be reinstated, as it seems to me that this action is saying that a mistake was made when the excommunication was first pronounced, but maybe someone can explain that to me. Does it have anything to do with the divisive issues between the SSPX and the Vatican being disciplinary in nature, rather than doctrinal?

My point here is, that since Bishop Williamson’s views had nothing to do with this decision (were they even KNOWN to the Vactican before the news broke?), we’re dealing with an entirely different situation than the case of women priests. They want the RC church to accept them as priests, which it cannot do (and is right to refuse to do!).

Therefore:
1: To rescind the excommunication of women priests and their supporters, would be to accept the priesthood of those, and that is impossible.

2: To rescind the excommunication of the SSPX might be admitting that a mistake was made when this whole mess began, but a disciplinary mistake, rather than a doctrinal one - and rescinding such an excommunication can be done without injury to the claim of infallibility regarding matters of faith and moral.

Have I understood the situation correctly? If not, please inform me

 

[ibkc]

I
Now, I do not understand how the Vatican can suddenly decide that SSPX should be reinstated, as it seems to me that this action is saying that a mistake was made when the excommunication was first pronounced, but maybe someone can explain that to me. Does it have anything to do with the divisive issues between the SSPX and the Vatican being disciplinary in nature, rather than doctrinal?

This has been hashed, re-hashed, re-re-hashed ad naseum in the Traditional Catholicism part of CAF, and in fact, is still being rehashed as I type. It’s also under discussion in the Catholic News section. Traditional Catholicism section is really the place to go to get your questions answered in depth.

 

[ralphinal]

Actually, it is good to see it here where non-Catholics can respond.

I would add that it might not show any error at all to allow the SSPX people back in. We cannot say that they have not met with the pope/his representatives and expressed sorrow at what they did.

You are correct about the rest

 

[mdstanzel]

The only thing I have against the SSPX is disobeying the Holy Father by not abiding by the norms of the Church. If they turn out to be correct, then so be it. I too have similar issues, but have chosen to remain loyal to the bitter end. “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” If the more extreme version of the SSPX were discovered to be correct then I would simply lean towards Eastern Orhtodox Christianity and accept without question. Once you questions the authority of the Church and it’s leaders/leader you call into question everything that has been passed on and thus become the “church of what’s happening now”. In a nutshell, this is what brought me back to Catholicism…a realization of simple truths that lead to larger truths. Logic. With all the lies out there there is only one way to figure this out in my opinion. I enjoy the spirituality of the faith and hold fast to its teachings and traditions as Paul put it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Now, I do not understand how the Vatican can suddenly decide that SSPX should be reinstated, as it seems to me that this action is saying that a mistake was made when the excommunication was first pronounced, but maybe someone can explain that to me.

The bishops have been de-excommunicated. The society itself is not in union with Rome.

Perhaps this will help with the “why”.

A response is expected:

“It is desired that this step be followed by the solicitous fulfillment of full communion with the Church of the Society of St. Pius X, thereby witnessing to authentic fidelity and a true recognition of the magisterium and the authority of the Pope, with the proof of visible unity.”

 

[I_Believe]

I’m intrigued:

The media, as well as liberal RC groups, gets all hyped up about the lifting of the excommunication of a Bishop who has denied the Holocaust.

Some liberals have said that the Vatican should also lift the excommunication of women priests, and their supporters, because it has lifted the excommunication of someone who denies the Holocaust.

The problem with this act of a crybaby is, IMHO, that those who demand this completely ignore the reason WHY the excommunications of the SSPX (as far as I know: The entire “organization” = all its clergy, and not just Bishop Williamson) were lifted.
Because as far as I have understood it, Williamson’s erronous views on the Shoah had NOTHING to do with the lifting of excommunication, nor had any such views anything to do with the reason the Bishops were excommunicated in the first place.

The reason the “founding members” of SSPX were excommunicated, was that they ordained priests and bishops without the go-ahead of the hierarchy of the RC church.

The reason women priests, and their supporters, are excommunicated, is that they profane the priesthood by trying to make it another battlefield for the spreading “anything you can do, I can do just as well (or better)”-attitude of feminism.
And, as an addition, because in taking the action of being ordained/ordaining, they have basically given the RC church the finger.
Yes, and other groups have done so in the past.

Now, I do not understand how the Vatican can suddenly decide that SSPX should be reinstated, as it seems to me that this action is saying that a mistake was made when the excommunication was first pronounced, but maybe someone can explain that to me. Does it have anything to do with the divisive issues between the SSPX and the Vatican being disciplinary in nature, rather than doctrinal?
The decree has been declared null. By virtue of examination of Canon Law. Also, the Society never left the Church, nor once questioned Her Doctrine or Dogmas.

My point here is, that since Bishop Williamson’s views had nothing to do with this decision (were they even KNOWN to the Vactican before the news broke?), we’re dealing with an entirely different situation than the case of women priests. They want the RC church to accept them as priests, which it cannot do (and is right to refuse to do!).

Therefore:
1: To rescind the excommunication of women priests and their supporters, would be to accept the priesthood of those, and that is impossible.

2: To rescind the excommunication of the SSPX might be admitting that a mistake was made when this whole mess began, but a disciplinary mistake, rather than a doctrinal one - and rescinding such an excommunication can be done without injury to the claim of infallibility regarding matters of faith and moral.

Have I understood the situation correctly? If not, please inform me

Correct, especially in this case. And yes, BXVI knows quite well what he is getting by embracing the Society. Feb 2nd was to be the day of another important statement on the status of the SSPX clergy, but the media blitz has delayed that. Still the Pope has assured us it will be soon. Pope BXVI is taking more flack about this than Bishop Williamson.

Nothing has changed in the Pope’s plan to regularize the SSPX. They are in communion with the Pope as far as their unwavering stance will allow. They have conceeded nothing, recanted nothing, nor compromised one iota.

They have secured this with the offering of over a million Rosarys for our Holy Father. And they, along with the likes of Archbishop Ranjith, Cardinal Hoyos, Cardinal Canizares, and Archbishop Burke, will work together, and their direction of the Church will catechize those men who will become our priests. And the future of the Church, is after all, in their hands.

 

[I_Believe]

The bishops have been de-excommunicated. The society itself is not in union with Rome.

Perhaps this will help with the “why”.

A response is expected:

“It is desired that this step be followed by the solicitous fulfillment of full communion with the Church of the Society of St. Pius X, thereby witnessing to authentic fidelity and a true recognition of the magisterium and the authority of the Pope, with the proof of visible unity.”

Hi Rebecca, I know it’s hard to understand, as it doesn’t make sense on the surface. But the Society is determined to call the shots on their own fate. And knowing this, the Pope welcomes them.

Think about it. And don’t forget, this is the man the Conclave chose to lead the Church. The Tridentine Church is rising again, and it’s going to be Glorious. The wolves and dissident groups like Call To Action will howl. The new age “catholic” movements will fade.

“Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around.”

• G.K. Chesterton

 

[pnewton]

I’m intrigued:

The media, as well as liberal RC groups, gets all hyped up about the lifting of the excommunication of a Bishop who has denied the Holocaust…Have I understood the situation correctly? If not, please inform me

Liberals and Jews aren’t the only ones hyped. Many traditionalists see this as a sign too. If one is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail.

I think you have a grasp on the situation, except I do not think you understand that an excommunication can be lifted unilaterally. First though, remember that the Vatican has said this is an internal matter. You and I do not know what all has been discussed and will never know.

That being said, let me give you a parallel, remembering that we see the Holy Father as the Vicar of Christ. Christ commended his love towards us so that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Love can allow for a one-sided gesture of mercy. We do not know if this is the case, but it surely in the character of the Church. What parent has never committed and act of mercy toward an unrepentant child in order to show their love and bring about repentance?

 

[1ke]

The purpose of excommunication is disciplinary. It is never permanent (unless the person dies unrepentant, and even then it ends at death). A person can be reconciled with the Church through renouncing whatever it is they did to be excommunicated and receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession)-- depending on the particulars of the excommunication it is either the Bishop or his designee or the Pope who lifts the excommunication. Excommunication can be either on doctrinal or disciplinary grounds.

The lifting of the excommunication on the SSPX Bishops has everything to do with them being reconciled to the Church, and has nothing to do with the Church/Pope making a “mistake” when they were excommunicated. The Pope did not make a mistake. The SSPX Bishops have reconciled.

Those who attempted to ordain women, and women who hold themselves out to be ordained, are excommunicated for their heretical acts and their disobedience to their Bishop. They too can be reconciled to the Church if they renounce their position on women’s ordination. Since they have not yet renounced their position, they remain excommunicated.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hi Rebecca, I know it’s hard to understand, as it doesn’t make sense on the surface. But the Society is determined to call the shots on their own fate. And knowing this, the Pope welcomes them.

Think about it. And don’t forget, this is the man the Conclave chose to lead the Church. The Tridentine Church is rising again, and it’s going to be Glorious. The wolves and dissident groups like Call To Action will howl. The new age “catholic” movements will fade.

“Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around.”

• G.K. Chesterton

Dunno if I’d take it all that far. At any rate, I’m glad to have our brothers and sisters back. And look forward to the day when they are in full communion.

 

[grampben]

It’s not just theological liberals who are disappointed with the Pope. Archbishop of Vienna Christoph Schönborn while understanding why the excommunications were lifted, and thinking it a good thing has said that no holocaust denier should be able to hold office and run a diocese in the church.
Or something like that . I’ll return with a source

 

[Jean_1958]

The lifting of excommunication was an act of mercy by the Pope and the bishops have been invited back into the fold. However, to reunite with the Church, the members of SSPX must accept the teachings of Vatican II. The above clarification was made by Chicago’s Cardinal Francis George who is the president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Jean

 

[emeraldcoast]

Have you had a chance to read the following?

Vatican Clarification on Lefebvrites, Holocaust

“The Holy Father Asks Accompaniment in Prayer”

VATICAN CITY, FEB. 4, 2009 (Zenit.org).- Here is a translation of a note issued today by the Vatican Secretariat of State regarding last month’s lifting of the excommunication of four bishops of the Society of St. Pius X.

---

In the wake of the reactions elicited by the recent decree from the Congregation for Bishops, with which the excommunication of four prelates of the Fraternity of St. Pius X were lifted, and in relation to negationist or reductionist declarations on the Shoah from Bishop Williamson of that same fraternity, it is considered opportune to clarify certain aspects of the issue.

1. Remission of the excommunication.

As has already been published previously, the decree of the Congregation for Bishops, dated Jan. 21, 2009, was an act by which the Holy Father graciously took in the reiterated petitions from the superior-general of the Fraternity of St. Pius X.

His Holiness wished to remove an impediment that adversely affected the opening of a door to dialogue. Now he expects that the same willingness be expressed by the four bishops, in total adhesion to the doctrine and discipline of the Church.

The most grave penalty of excommunication latae sententiae, which these bishops incurred June 30, 1988, afterward declared formally on July 1 of the same year, was a consequence of their illegitimate ordination by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.

The lifting of the excommunication has freed the four bishops from a most grave canonical penalty, but it has not changed in any way the juridical situation of the Fraternity of St. Pius X, which for the moment does not enjoy any canonical recognition in the Catholic Church. Neither do the four bishops, though liberated from the excommunication, have a canonical function in the Church and they do not licitly exercise a ministry in it.

1. Tradition, doctrine and the Second Vatican Council.

For a future recognition of the Fraternity of St. Pius X, the full recognition of the Second Vatican Council and the magisterium of Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II and Benedict XVI himself is an indispensable condition.

As has already been affirmed in the decree of Jan. 21, 2009, the Holy See will not cease, in the ways in which it judges opportune, to go deeper with the interested parties in the questions that remain open, in such a way that a full and satisfactory solution to the problems that have given rise to this painful fracture can be reached.

1. Declaration on the Shoah.

The viewpoints of Bishop Williamson on the Shoah are absolutely unacceptable and firmly rejected by the Holy Father, as he himself noted last Jan. 28, when, referring to that savage genocide, he reaffirmed his full and indisputable solidarity with our brother recipients of the First Covenant, and affirmed that the memory of that terrible genocide should induce “humanity to reflect on the unpredictable power of evil when it conquers the human heart,” adding that the Shoah remains “for everyone a warning against forgetting, against negating or reductionism, because violence committed against even one human being is violence against all.”

Bishop Williamson, to be admitted to episcopal functions in the Church, must also distance himself in an absolutely unmistakable and public way from his position on the Shoah, which was unknown to the Holy Father in the moment of the lifting of the excommunication.

The Holy Father asks accompaniment in prayer from all the faithful, that the Lord may enlighten the path of the Church. May there be an increase in the determination of the pastors and all the faithful in support of the delicate and heavy mission of the Successor of the Apostle Peter as “guardian of the unity” of the Church.

From the Vatican, February 4, 2009

[Translation by ZENIT]