My viewpoint on Conservative versus Liberal Catholic: The faithful v the fake

[Charlemagne_II]

**Michael

Peace be with you. **

Et cum spiritu tuo!

 

[Emese]

I do think you need people who initiate the necessary changes from whithin an organisation. If you examine the history of the Church, resistance resulted in destruction and splits ( e.g. protestant churches), whilst embracing the opportunities to evolve resulted in reforms and ensured the survival through even the roughest times.

 

[CrossBro]

**Et

Seems pretty rude and unnecessary to call people fake. **

Would you prefer “Cafeteria Catholic”?

The other day I heard for the first time the term “All you can eat Catholics”.

The term was used on Catholic Radio.

 

[CrossBro]

I have read the posts in this thread and I stand by my OP statement that there are fake Catholics.

The Catholic Church itself states that one is automatically excommunicated if a person publically supports abortion.

I don’t see a problem with the Church asking all Catholics to sign a statement stating they are against abortion and not to publically support or teach against moral holdings of the Church or leave.

I do not think that is un-Christian or un-charitable. I think you can see in the gospels that Jesus wanted the his Church and the members in it to have high standards.

If you are pro-choice when the Church states that having such a stance publically ex-communicates you, then why would you want to stay anyway ?

 

[Emese]

I have read the posts in this thread and I stand by my OP statement that there are fake Catholics.

The Catholic Church itself states that one is automatically excommunicated if a person publically supports abortion.

I don’t see a problem with the Church asking all Catholics to sign a statement stating they are against abortion and not to publically support or teach against moral holdings of the Church or leave.

I do not think that is un-Christian or un-charitable. I think you can see in the gospels that Jesus wanted the his Church and the members in it to have high standards.

If you are pro-choice when the Church states that having such a stance publically ex-communicates you, then why would you want to stay anyway ?

High standards, yes, for your own self! But not imposed onto others…

 

[CrossBro]

**MIchael

We must love our brothers and sisters suffering in error, and lead them into the light. Calling them names doesn’t show them love. **

Matthew 23:33

“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?”

I reckon you remember who said this?

And surely he loved them even when calling them names.

Nice quote, now who was it that fastened a whip and chased the money changers out of the Church ? Do you remember who it was that at the end of the harvest ordered that the weeds be set on fire ? Who was it that said something about the eye of a needle and a camel ?

The Church teaches that we are not to receive communion in a state of mortal sin. I simply stating that it is time for the Church to focus on the quality and not the quantity.

 

[Joe_5859]

I have read the posts in this thread and I stand by my OP statement that there are fake Catholics.

The Catholic Church itself states that one is automatically excommunicated if a person publically supports abortion.

I don’t see a problem with the Church asking all Catholics to sign a statement stating they are against abortion and not to publically support or teach against moral holdings of the Church or leave.

I do not think that is un-Christian or un-charitable. I think you can see in the gospels that Jesus wanted the his Church and the members in it to have high standards.

If you are pro-choice when the Church states that having such a stance publically ex-communicates you, then why would you want to stay anyway ?

A Church that baptizes babies does not have stringent membership requirements.

I get what you’re saying, but I find your solution completely unworkable. Do you imagine the Pope just issuing an apostolic exhortation asking for all Catholics to sign a document affirming Catholic teaching? And then all the bishops will turn around and ask this of their priests to ask their parishioners? What happens to those who don’t sign? Are they excommunicated? What of the people who cannot read and write? What of those who are sick or infirmed and physically unable to sign (or even speak)? What of those with developmental disabilities who cannot understand what you are asking of them? Are they to be kicked out of the Church and barred from heaven because they lack the ability to sign a piece of paper? Sorry, there’s nothing in Scripture or Tradition that would support such a hoop to jump through in order to attain salvation.

What would be gained from such a move except to equip internet theologians with canon fodder by which to objectively pronounce that so-and-so is not really Catholic?

Truly, it would be superfluous anyway. All Catholics are obligated to go to Mass weekly. And at that Mass, we all profess the Creed. That is our affirmation of Catholic teaching. No piece of paper required.

And I would be in favor of putting to rest the examples of Jesus and the money-changers and the “Brood of vipers” and St. Paul speaking to the “stupid Galatians”, etc. We cannot cherry-pick a few examples from Scripture and use that as justification to dismiss any and all concernes for charity. That is not being attentive to the content and unity of Scripture, which most certainly and clearly calls us to be charitable. Besides, none of us are the Son of God nor an Apostle.

In any case, those examples cut both ways. “Liberals” can just as easily call us “conservatives” a bunch of rule-loving Pharisees who demand much of everyone but ourselves and never lift a finger to help. And then where are we? We’re just tossing insults back and forth. That’s not really conducive to anything positive happening.

 

[Akimbo]

**Akimbo

It’s much better to keep to your own list in confession than to dwell on the sins others aren’t confessing. **

Actually, it’s much better to have a standing and united Catholic Church than one that is flat on the ground and akimbo.

Welcome to the club!

“A closed Church betrays its own identity.” -Pope Francis

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Pope Francis recently removed a priest from his faculties as a priest, and then excommunicated him from the Church. The priest was shocked at his treatment. But why was he shocked after himself advocating ordination of female priests and same-sex marriage?

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/09/27/pope-francis-excommunicates-australian-priest/

He was a fake priest and a fake Catholic. There are such lay people as well, and they do not deserve to be gently treated as if they were not bent on sowing division and tearing apart the fabric of the Church.

Gospel of John 17:18

“As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world. And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth. I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.”

 

[Joe_5859]

Pope Francis recently removed a priest from his faculties as a priest, and then excommunicated him from the Church. The priest was shocked at his treatment. But why was he shocked after himself advocating ordination of female priests and same-sex marriage?

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/09/27/pope-francis-excommunicates-australian-priest/

He was a fake priest and a fake Catholic. There are such lay people as well, and they do not deserve to be gently treated as if they were not bent on sowing division and tearing apart the fabric of the Church.

Gospel of John 17:18

“As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world. And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth. I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.”

But that’s the pope’s call to make, not ours. I think it adds to the confusion to call him a “fake priest.” If he was validly ordained, he will always be a real priest. Excommunication does not remove that indellible mark from his soul.

Nor would I place excommunication at odds with being gentle. The purpose of excommunication is medicinal, not to punish the rabble rousers and kick them to the curb.

Indeed, if it was the Catholic approach to strive to filter out the “fake Catholics” from the Church with utmost speed and severity, then the Church is doing a pretty poor job of it. Stories like this would not even be newsworthy because the phenomenon would be so commonplace.

As Gandalf wisely said, “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.” I’m certainly not comfortable placing myself in the chair as arbiter of who should stay and who should go.

 

[CrossBro]

But that’s the pope’s call to make, not ours. I think it adds to the confusion to call him a “fake priest.” If he was validly ordained, he will always be a real priest. Excommunication does not remove that indellible mark from his soul.

Nor would I place excommunication at odds with being gentle. The purpose of excommunication is medicinal, not to punish the rabble rousers and kick them to the curb.

Indeed, if it was the Catholic approach to strive to filter out the “fake Catholics” from the Church with utmost speed and severity, then the Church is doing a pretty poor job of it. Stories like this would not even be newsworthy because the phenomenon would be so commonplace.

As Gandalf wisely said, “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.” I’m certainly not comfortable placing myself in the chair as arbiter of who should stay and who should go.

There are examples, in fact modern day ones when the Church has moved against individual members of the lay for decisions they have made that go against Church moral teaching or dogma:

This for instance:

“On 21 January 1986, it was announced by a priest of the Diocese of Providence RI that in June 1985, Mary Ann Sorrentino of Rhode Island had received, in response to her inquiry, written confirmation from Bp. Louis Gelineau and Abp. Pio Laghi, that she had incurred latae sententiae excommunication under 1983 CIC 1398 for her work as executive director of a Planned Parenthood abortion clinic in Rhode Island”

Last year a fellow parishioner challenged me right after a daily mass with both attended on my pro-life activism. Do I think she should be kicked out ? You betcha.

 

[christofirst]

What an awesome idea! But I’m worried that some of those fake Catholics would sign the oath disingenuously. We would need some sort of police force, maybe a secret police, who could make sure those fake Catholics were being honest. And if we discovered those fake Catholics, we couldn’t just leave them to pollute the rest of the faithful. We would need to round them up in some sort of camp where we could isolate them and possibly re-educate them. I’m still working out the details. I don’t have a final solution yet, but you’ve really got me thinking.

 

[CrossBro]

…
Truly, it would be superfluous anyway. All Catholics are obligated to go to Mass weekly. And at that Mass, we all profess the Creed. That is our affirmation of Catholic teaching. No piece of paper required.
…

**85. Who belong to the Church ?

Those belong to the Church, who are baptized, believe all that God has revealed, and are in union with the Pope of Rome.

Catholic Catechism, Faerber**

If you believe in abortion on demand and gay marriage can you actually believe that you are in any way in union with the Pope of Rome when those beliefs stated in a public sense automatically excommunicate you ? Does that person believe all that God has revealed ?

Anyone can repeat the Apostle’s Creed. The governor of the state of Nevada attends daily mass and it states on his website he is pro-choice.

 

[CrossBro]

What an awesome idea! But I’m worried that some of those fake Catholics would sign the oath disingenuously. We would need some sort of police force, maybe a secret police, who could make sure those fake Catholics were being honest. And if we discovered those fake Catholics, we couldn’t just leave them to pollute the rest of the faithful. We would need to round them up in some sort of camp where we could isolate them and possibly re-educate them. I’m still working out the details. I don’t have a final solution yet, but you’ve really got me thinking.

Get your ideas trademarked, I would recommend going the route of computer chips embedded under the skin.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**Joe

I’m certainly not comfortable placing myself in the chair as arbiter of who should stay and who should go. **

Then we take your word for it that you would not make a very good pope.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**CrossBro

Last year a fellow parishioner challenged me right after a daily mass with both attended on my pro-life activism. Do I think she should be kicked out ? You betcha. **

And a perfect example of the hypocrisy Jesus detested.

 

[CrossBro]

**CrossBro

Last year a fellow parishioner challenged me right after a daily mass with both attended on my pro-life activism. Do I think she should be kicked out ? You betcha. **

And a perfect example of the hypocrisy Jesus detested.

The Church states that one is automatically ex-communicated for public support of abortion.

I don’t understand the meaning of your comment here, are you speaking about me or are you speaking about the person who challenged me on abortion right after receiving communion ?

I think you stated that you don’t want to be the one who judges, well I am stating it is the Church which judges and the Church which enforces. I think the Church should enforce what it already has set as dogma and doctrine.

If a Catholic goes online and creates a website called “Pro-choice Catholics” what do you believe should be the response of the Church ?

 

[kozlosap]

::

**CrossBro

Last year a fellow parishioner challenged me right after a daily mass with both attended on my pro-life activism. Do I think she should be kicked out ? You betcha. **

And a perfect example of the hypocrisy Jesus detested.

::

 

[christofirst]

Get your ideas trademarked, I would recommend going the route of computer chips embedded under the skin.

I like your thinking! Maybe we could program those embedded chips to shine a bright red letter “F” when a fake Catholic was revealed. Then the faithful would know who to shun.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**CrossBro

I don’t understand the meaning of your comment here, are you speaking about me or are you speaking about the person who challenged me on abortion right after receiving communion ?**

The person who challenged you, a person who goes to Mass but believes in the right to kill the unborn. Jesus raged against the “snakes and vipers” who wanted to be seen in the synagogue and followed the letter but not the spirit of the law. Fake Jews, fake Catholics, fake Protestants, they are all around us. They call themselves religious but can hardly wait to sit in the devil’s lap.