My viewpoint on Conservative versus Liberal Catholic: The faithful v the fake

[Joe_5859]

I like your thinking! Maybe we could program those embedded chips to shine a bright red letter “F” when a fake Catholic was revealed. Then the faithful would know who to shun.

I think people might get confused, though, as to whether the letter F stood for “Fake” or “Faithful.” Maybe to avoid confusion, the “F” for “Fake” could be maroon-colored and the “F” for “Faithful” could be dark red.

 

[Joe_5859]

There are examples, in fact modern day ones when the Church has moved against individual members of the lay for decisions they have made that go against Church moral teaching or dogma:

This for instance:

Last year a fellow parishioner challenged me right after a daily mass with both attended on my pro-life activism. Do I think she should be kicked out ? You betcha.

But, again, in your example who made the call? The bishop.

It’s these attitudes of wanting to kick people out that reinforce the sterotypes that some “liberals” have of the “conservatives”: that we don’t care about anyone’s salvation, we just want to keep our Catholic ghetto pure and undefiled (which, they further recognize is impossible because we are sinners, too).

The Church already has a vocabulary for these things, and She also already has a way of dealing with these issues. Introducing a term like “fake Catholic” (which people are going to be offended by) or a practice of signing a pledge (which is superfluous and unworkable from a logistical stanpoint) is unnecessary. And hence why you will never see either introduced into any actual Church verbiage or practice.

 

[christofirst]

I think people might get confused, though, as to whether the letter F stood for “Fake” or “Faithful.” Maybe to avoid confusion, the “F” for “Fake” could be maroon-colored and the “F” for “Faithful” could be dark red.

There can be no confusion! But I was thinking maybe a green letter “F” for faithful Catholics. Green means go. Go to Heaven. Red, or maybe scarlet, letter “F” for fake Catholics. Red means stop. Stop calling yourself Catholic, you bad, liberal fakers!

 

[Joe_5859]

There can be no confusion! But I was thinking maybe a green letter “F” for faithful Catholics. Green means go. Go to Heaven. Red, or maybe scarlet, letter “F” for fake Catholics. Red means stop. Stop calling yourself Catholic, you bad, liberal fakers!

I’m glad I recognized you weren’t serious with your first post in this thread.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Joe

You know what? I don’t really care what the liberals think of the conservatives any more than I care what the Protestants or the atheists think of us. We are staying true to the Church teachings. If you think the liberals are going to be offended any less by calling their beliefs false (which you must admit they are, unless you are pro-choice, for female priests, and for same-sex marriage) than by calling them fake, you are wrong. I don’t think the liberals care what they are called. They think they are right and they have the truth. They are as dogmatic as the pope because they oppose the pope and the entire Church authority. That is not Catholicism, which Christ wanted to be unified, not scattered. You may think by not calling it fake, we can somehow bring them back down the true path of orthodoxy. I doubt it very much. And by accepting them as true Catholics we very much muddy the waters of orthodox Catholicism, since more and more Catholics, as we have seen during the last three generations, are turning increasingly toward defiance of the Church authority and the Church teachings.

Jesus had it right when he chastised the hypocrites by calling them “snakes and vipers.”

Those labels were a good deal more fierce than “Fake”. Was Christ rude to the hypocrites, or was he rather calling them to account for their hypocrisy.

 

[Rete]

^^^ Not necessarily averse to kicking people out.

 

[SMGS127]

I don’t understand this focus on “liberal” vs. “conservative” Catholics on this thread. I agree with a previous poster that we should really be using the terms “orthodox” vs. “heterodox” Catholics. As far I’m aware, “liberal Catholic” is not an oxymoron, since I’ve never met a single person that told me that following Keynesian capitalist economics negated one’s ability to be an orthodox Catholic.

Perhaps people would prefer to retitle the thread “Socially conservative versus socially liberal Catholics?”

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**SMGS

Perhaps people would prefer to retitle the thread “Socially conservative versus socially liberal Catholics?” **

It should be assumed that when discussing these matters in this thread we are talking about such matters as pro-choice abortion, same-sex marriage, ordination of women, etc. Those are all demands of the liberal Catholics, not the conservatives. So far as I know, the terms liberal and conservative are not limited to economics, and never have been.

 

[christofirst]

**SMGS

Perhaps people would prefer to retitle the thread “Socially conservative versus socially liberal Catholics?” **

It should be assumed that when discussing these matters in this thread we are talking about such matters as pro-choice abortion, same-sex marriage, ordination of women, etc. Those are all demands of the liberal Catholics, not the conservatives. So far as I know, the terms liberal and conservative are not limited to economics, and never have been.

We do need to be on the same page, as we throw around labels and throw out undesirables.

 

[SMGS127]

**SMGS

Perhaps people would prefer to retitle the thread “Socially conservative versus socially liberal Catholics?” **

It should be assumed that when discussing these matters in this thread we are talking about such matters as pro-choice abortion, same-sex marriage, ordination of women, etc. Those are all demands of the liberal Catholics, not the conservatives. So far as I know, the terms liberal and conservative are not limited to economics, and never have been.

Maybe so, but on the other hand, “liberal” and “conservative” mean much more than the social side of it. I would probably be considered pretty liberal by people, yet I’m intensely pro-life, oppose SS’M,’ and believe there’s no such thing as female ordination [or SS’M’ for that matter]. The liberal/conservative platform is not just a social spectrum; it also encompasses economics, military policy, international relations policy, etc.

Therefore, calling a “liberal Catholic” (something I consider myself to be) an automatic ‘fake’ when there are many “liberal Catholics” who are completely orthodox to the Church is, quite frankly, very offensive.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**SMGS

Therefore, calling a “liberal Catholic” (something I consider myself to be) an automatic ‘fake’ when there are many “liberal Catholics” who are completely orthodox to the Church is, quite frankly, very offensive. **

Since you are conservative in the obvious areas this thread is about, there is no need for you to get yourself into a state of righteous indignation. Cool it.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**christo

We do need to be on the same page, as we throw around labels and throw out undesirables. **

I assumed we were on the same page. Why wouldn’t we be?

You seem to have me confused with someone else. I am not for throwing the liberals out. I am for getting them to look at what they believe in, and deciding whether they really are who they claim to be.

As for throwing them out, I leave that to the bishops and Pope Francis.

Obviously, no one wants to throw out Catholics who campaign for peace and social justice.

 

[CrossBro]

You do the fakes a favor by throwing them out. In one sense they are already out. By allowing them to physically stay then they will not have to face their separation from God and will feel empowered to lead others to destruction.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

**SMGS

Therefore, calling a “liberal Catholic” (something I consider myself to be) an automatic ‘fake’ when there are many “liberal Catholics” who are completely orthodox to the Church is, quite frankly, very offensive. **

Since you are conservative in the obvious areas this thread is about, there is no need for you to get yourself into a state of righteous indignation. Cool it.

I think SMGS has a valid point. On one hand you say “Don’t worry, I’m not talking about you - just those other liberals”. On the other hand you continue to use the term “liberal” without qualification. This casts doubt on all things liberal, and can rightly be considered an attack by those who do consider themselves liberal in some of those “other” areas.

 

[triumphguy]

**SMGS

Therefore, calling a “liberal Catholic” (something I consider myself to be) an automatic ‘fake’ when there are many “liberal Catholics” who are completely orthodox to the Church is, quite frankly, very offensive. **

Since you are conservative in the obvious areas this thread is about, there is no need for you to get yourself into a state of righteous indignation. Cool it.

I don’t think you should be telling people to cool it!

I’m not offended, but I’m miffed, by posters throwing round the label “liberal.”

It’s time to stop labeling other Catholics, unless of course one is willing to label oneself honestly, including their own secret sins… cos that’s what labeling is about - shaming others.

None of us are worthy to receive the very body and blood of Christ.
We should all be labelled “sinner.”

 

[triumphguy]

You do the fakes a favor by throwing them out. In one sense they are already out. By allowing them to physically stay then they will not have to face their separation from God and will feel empowered to lead others to destruction.

Why not start the process by naming posters you feel should be excluded from this forum…

 

[CrossBro]

What is this argument about the term “liberal” ?

Reread the OP- I use the term “liberal Catholic” to mean those who think the Church needs to grow up and evolve and change it’s views on abortion, gay marriage, and female ordination to name a few issues.

Any arguments stating that I use the term liberal to be inclusive of people’s political or economic views are simply the figments of imagination.

For the record I am a registered Democrat.

 

[CrossBro]

Why not start the process by naming posters you feel should be excluded from this forum…

I am sorry that for some reason you are upset.

Why don’t you list some of the things you disagree with about the Church’s moral teaching so we can all better understand where you are coming from ?

As for this forum, it is privately owned, it is not my place to decide who can or cannot post here.

 

[triumphguy]

I am sorry that for some reason you are upset.

Why don’t you list some of the things you disagree with about the Church’s moral teaching so we can all better understand where you are coming from ?

As for this forum, it is privately owned, it is not my place to decide who can or cannot post here.

1. Why do you presume I disagree with ANY of the church’s teaching on morality?
2. You don’t own the church either, so talking about kicking out the “fakes” just comes across somewhat aggressive.
3. Perhaps if you hadn’t used the labels:shrug:
4. The only label we should use is: Forgive me Lord, I am a sinful man.

The reason why I am miffed is because the sinners, the halfhearted etc., NEED the Church and belong in the Church.

 

[CrossBro]

These following quotes from Faerber Catechism

1. To obtain the graces of this sacrament we must receive the Holy Eucharist worthily.

1. He receives the Holy Eucharist worthily who receives it in a state of sanctifying grace.

1. He who receives the Holy Eucharist unworthily who knowingly receives it in a state of mortal sin.

1. An unworthy Communion is a fearful crime because it is a horrible sacrilege.

Whoever shall eat this bread or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
1 Cor 11:27, 29

If you really care about the fake Catholic you must know that you are not helping them by empowering or enabling to commit the sacrilege. The mature Catholic goes to Mass to worship God not to find him. You find God in the world and you worship him in the Church.