My visit to Utah

[Catholic20064]

I went to Utah last week to visit with my family in Provo. It was a wonderful experience and makes me understand why I became Mormon in the first place. The students at BYU just have it all over the students at Catholic colleges I have known – they are more mature, more friendly and generally better behaved than what I have seen among Catholic students of the same age group. Catholic students at many Catholic colleges seem to be at school as much for the beer and for sex as they are for their studies. I went to the temple grounds because my wife was going to the temple and I really felt something peaceful there. I also went to the Cathedral in Salt Lake City. While it was very beautiful, it lacked something that I encountered at the Mormon locations. It almost makes me want to be baptized Mormon again. Even if the Book of Mormon isn’t true, their religion seems to make their active members better than our religion does. The only thing that holds me to Catholicism at this point is the Eucharist. If Mormons understood the Eucharist to be the literal body and blood of Jesus like we do, I think I might become Mormon again.

 

[Sam_777]

Catholic students at many Catholic colleges seem to be at school as much for the beer and for sex as they are for their studies.

Do other Catholic members agree with that statement?

I was thinking that the Catholic students should be a good example for other students to follow.

 

[JRKH]

Do other Catholic members agree with that statement?

I was thinking that the Catholic students should be a good example for other students to follow.

They should be but unfortunately many are not… Then a gain, many are…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I went to Utah last week to visit with my family in Provo. It was a wonderful experience and makes me understand why I became Mormon in the first place. The students at BYU just have it all over the students at Catholic colleges I have known – they are more mature, more friendly and generally better behaved than what I have seen among Catholic students of the same age group. Catholic students at many Catholic colleges seem to be at school as much for the beer and for sex as they are for their studies. I went to the temple grounds because my wife was going to the temple and I really felt something peaceful there. I also went to the Cathedral in Salt Lake City. While it was very beautiful, it lacked something that I encountered at the Mormon locations. It almost makes me want to be baptized Mormon again. Even if the Book of Mormon isn’t true, their religion seems to make their active members better than our religion does. The only thing that holds me to Catholicism at this point is the Eucharist. If Mormons understood the Eucharist to be the literal body and blood of Jesus like we do, I think I might become Mormon again.

If Mormons truly understood the actual truth of this, they would be Catholics.

In fact, if more Catholics understood the actual truth of this, some of the other problems you mention would not exist either…

Peace
James

 

[catsrus]

Behavior and responsibility for one’s actions begins at home.
I don’t think what religion a person practices (or not) has a lot to do with it.
I’ve never known a kid to be a well behaved angel through 12th grade and then become a sex, drugs and rock and roll hedonist 3 months later when he/she begins college.
There are exceptions to every rule, of course.

 

[Catholic20064]

Behavior and responsibility for one’s actions begins at home.
I don’t think what religion a person practices (or not) has a lot to do with it.
I’ve never known a kid to be a well behaved angel through 12th grade and then become a sex, drugs and rock and roll hedonist 3 months later when he/she begins college.
There are exceptions to every rule, of course.

So can we infer from this that active Mormon parents do a better job of training their children than active Catholic parents? And why would that be the case?

 

[JRKH]

So can we infer from this that active Mormon parents do a better job of training their children than active Catholic parents? And why would that be the case?

Perhaps the key word here is “Active”. How many people who identify themselves as “Catholic” are actually dedicated, practicing Catholics?

Another factor could be the poor catechesis of the parents, something that has been sadly lacking and confused over the last 40 or so years.
I think that mormons on the whole hold to a more strict Catechesis and standard of behavior than has been prevelant within Catholicism since Vat II (Speaking only for the Chruch in the U.S.)

Peace
James

 

[Todd520]

Perhaps the key word here is “Active”. How many people who identify themselves as “Catholic” are actually dedicated, practicing Catholics?

Another factor could be the poor catechesis of the parents, something that has been sadly lacking and confused over the last 40 or so years.
I think that mormons on the whole hold to a more strict Catechesis and standard of behavior than has been prevelant within Catholicism since Vat II (Speaking only for the Chruch in the U.S.)

Peace
James

Every ‘active’ LDS attends a 3hr service on Sunday, which inclues 1 hr of bible study or catechesis (adult and child). I think this regular group study along with urging to read scripture daily results in a well ‘catechised’ group of members.

If the Catholics followed up Mass with 1hr of group catechesis, it would solve alot of the problems I’ve read of on this forum. LDS seperates into groups of adults, teens, and children so discussion is age relevant and people build community with their peers.

 

[Marie5890]

Mormonism is certianly more than just a belief system and a faith identity/tradition…Its a way of life…

For many Catholics being Catholic is an identity and a tradtion but not a way of life…

It’s a valid observation.

 

[utah_rose]

Perhaps the key word here is “Active”. How many people who identify themselves as “Catholic” are actually dedicated, practicing Catholics?

Another factor could be the poor catechesis of the parents, something that has been sadly lacking and confused over the last 40 or so years.
I think that mormons on the whole hold to a more strict Catechesis and standard of behavior than has been prevelant within Catholicism since Vat II (Speaking only for the Chruch in the U.S.)

Peace
James

We have only ourselves to blame as to the poor catechesis especially in the 70’s and the lack of parish activities for everyone in the parish. In too many cases it’s the Knights of Columbus, and some ladies organization. Also, no catechesis in the summer. Mormon’s have primary and “Sunday School” all year long.

However, although they strive for family activities, there are some bumps. There is a lot of incest and child molestation in Utah. Polygamists thrive because Utah looks the other way.

You are right that they don’t have the Eucharist. They also don’t believe in the Trinity, and Jesus as we do.

Despite the good things they do and family activity like family night (which would be good for Catholics to emulate ) they also on their members 24/7. They check if they don’t go to Church, they have visiting teachers, and their bishops keep tabs on them as for keeping the words of “Wisdom” (which by the way Brigham Young didn’t institute for a long time–no smoking or coffee or liquor.)

They don’t go to Church on Christmas unless it’s a Sunday. Having lived in this state over e 30 years I have seen them change their views and doctrines if one of their leaders have a “revelation”.

As for BYU, I agree that they have an awesome code of behavior. But I can’t see why you see more in the Temple than in the Cathedral since Jesus is present in the Eucharist and no way to be seen in the Temple.

Please don’t be blinded by “false prophets” as Jesus warned. Remember, “by their fruits you shall know them” and Joseph Smith and Brigham Young with their many wives and distorted view of religion should answer your question.

Right now they are neutral about abortion and may even change their view on same sex marriage, and you know the Catholic Church will remain steady in their beliefs and never succumb to the modern views of the world.

 

[Catholic20064]

Every ‘active’ LDS attends a 3hr service on Sunday, which inclues 1 hr of bible study or catechesis (adult and child). I think this regular group study along with urging to read scripture daily results in a well ‘catechised’ group of members.

If the Catholics followed up Mass with 1hr of group catechesis, it would solve alot of the problems I’ve read of on this forum. LDS seperates into groups of adults, teens, and children so discussion is age relevant and people build community with their peers.

Perhaps the parishes are too large because of the priest shortage. It is only going to get worse as the priest shortage does not seem to be going away any time soon. There may be a small increase, but it’s not keeping up with the growth in population. The Catholic Church needs to seriously consider enabling more unpaid lay married men to act in the role of priest like the LDS Church does. It needs to make the parishes smaller as well. There are too many large parishes which lack a sense of community. There is a reason the Amish don’t allow their congregations to get much above 30 families. It’s the same reason Mormon congregations are small. The large parishes make it almost impossible to develop community or accountability.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

Every ‘active’ LDS attends a 3hr service on Sunday, which inclues 1 hr of bible study or catechesis (adult and child). I think this regular group study along with urging to read scripture daily results in a well ‘catechised’ group of members.

If the Catholics followed up Mass with 1hr of group catechesis, it would solve alot of the problems I’ve read of on this forum. LDS seperates into groups of adults, teens, and children so discussion is age relevant and people build community with their peers.

Do the LDS parents that attend this long session every Sunday (is it in the morning?) regard it as an inconvenience or are they enthusiastic about it? Does the catechesis take place before or after the service? What do they discuss?

 

[Catholic20064]

Do the LDS parents that attend this long session every Sunday (is it in the morning?) regard it as an inconvenience or are they enthusiastic about it? Does the catechesis take place before or after the service? What do they discuss?

My experience is that most are enthusiastic about it as they are about every aspect of their religion. It is a three hour learning experience for all ages as adults are being instructed as well.

 

[Marie5890]

Do the LDS parents that attend this long session every Sunday (is it in the morning?) regard it as an inconvenience or are they enthusiastic about it? Does the catechesis take place before or after the service? What do they discuss?

All Mormons stay for the 3 hour block. Besides Sacrament Meeting, all attend an appropriate age Sunday School, and then they go to another meeting …Older kids and adults go to priesthood meetings (for males) and Relief Society (women) or Young Women (for the girls)

Primary is for the young kids…

Mormons are extra-ordinary in their family focus…and they all stay for the 3 hour block as a family…

 

[Catholic20064]

All Mormons stay for the 3 hour block. Besides Sacrament Meeting, all attend an appropriate age Sunday School, and then they go to another meeting …Older kids and adults go to priesthood meetings (for males) and Relief Society (women) or Young Women (for the girls)

Primary is for the young kids…

Almost all of the Protestant churches include a Sunday School option. I don’t know why this hasn’t been offered to Catholics. Perhaps nobody would attend. That says something about the general Catholic attitude towards church I guess.

 

[Marie5890]

Almost all of the Protestant churches include a Sunday School option. I don’t know why this hasn’t been offered to Catholics. Perhaps nobody would attend. That says something about the general Catholic attitude towards church I guess.

Having been both a devout Mormon and a devout Catholic I can say it’s one of the biggest reason Catholics have such a poor knowledge of Sacred Scripture…why they dont understand exactly what the Catholic Church teaches and more importantly WHY…

For Catholic parents if they really want their children to be well formed in the faith they are the ones who are going to have to do most of the heavy lifting here…They wont find it in their parishes…

It also goes for the individual Catholic…It will be thru personal effort and desire that they become well catechized.

With all of that said I am very blessed to be part of the parish I am…We do have two active Small Christian Communities groups that are available for people who are interested…with a small group trying to encourage even more groups to form…and our deacon has taken it upon himself to be implementing a weeking evening formation of the faith program this fall…(and this is no easy task as he is the head of our diaconate for our archdiocese)

 

[Murdock]

catsrus

Your post states (1) that teaching responsibility begins at home and (2) that which religion you practice (or not) does not have much to do with responsible behavior of young people. I agree with your first point and I agree to an extent with your second point.

However, I would like to suggest a couple of ideas for your (and others’) consideration:

1. The home can and should be the primary place for the exercise of religion. You can go to church only one day a week but you live at home seven days a week.

Most important is to assemble the entire family for prayer each morning and evening and to read and discuss one chapter of scripture each day.

Assembling the entire family weekly for something like the Mormon Family Home Evening, which includes but is not limited to religious worship and instruction, is also very important. I am not suggesting that it needs to be the Mormon model of FHE and I do not know whether our specific model of FHE would be suitable for Catholics. However, without something like it, you are less likely to wind up pleased by the decisions your children make.

Just outside of the home, Mormon teenagers have Mutual one evening a week and Seminary early morning before each school day. Mormon college students have their own version of FHE on Monday evenings and (except at BYU) Institute one day or evening a week. I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that the Catholic Church makes equivalent programs freely available but that many Catholic young people do not participate.

I believe that non-Mormon sociologists have found that, in terms of the behavior of American teenagers, just saying prayers over meals and going to church on Sunday does not cut it. I have not seen such a study as to college students, but my suspician is that a teenager’s behavior usually carries over into behavior in college.

1. At least to an extent, responsible behavior of young people may not depend upon “what” religion the family practices, but I think it matters a great deal whether or not the family actually does “practice” their religion.

Because of my work, for the past nearly 15 years, many of my professional collegues and many of my clients have been Orthodox Jewish. Except for the yarmulkes on the Jewish men and the blond hair on the Mormons, the student bodies of BYU and the Yeshiva are pretty similar. (OK that was an exageration.) The same thing except more so is true as to Mormon and Orthodox Jewish teenagers in my area. Their parents are extremely proud of the way they conduct themselves.

Unfortunately, the same thing cannot be said for a great many of the Protestant and Catholic teenagers in my area. The things that my kids have told me about the high schools, and even the middle schools, of this affluent area would frighten you and maybe sicken you. I know just enough about Protestantism and Catholicism to know that this is not the way it is supposed to be. Their families, with the help of their churches, need to do something. Maybe that something is along the lines that I have suggested above.

Murdock

 

[JRKH]

Perhaps the parishes are too large because of the priest shortage. It is only going to get worse as the priest shortage does not seem to be going away any time soon. There may be a small increase, but it’s not keeping up with the growth in population. The Catholic Church needs to seriously consider enabling more unpaid lay married men to act in the role of priest like the LDS Church does. It needs to make the parishes smaller as well. There are too many large parishes which lack a sense of community. There is a reason the Amish don’t allow their congregations to get much above 30 families. It’s the same reason Mormon congregations are small. The large parishes make it almost impossible to develop community or accountability.

This lighlighted portion is simply not an option. The ministerial priesthood is a full time vocation which includes the faculty of confecting the Eucharist. This simply cannot be passed on to “laymen” in the Church.
The Church has already done as much as she can to involve the lay faithful in roles formerly reserved to the priesthood. The permanent deaconate, Eucharistic minsters etc, have helped some.

As for the priest shortages, if it continues I suspect that the various diocese will be forced either to bring in priests fro oversees, or return to a greater use of religious priests.
However, I have great faith that Christ will supply what is needed.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

catsrus

Your post states (1) that teaching responsibility begins at home and (2) that which religion you practice (or not) does not have much to do with responsible behavior of young people. I agree with your first point and I agree to an extent with your second point.

However, I would like to suggest a couple of ideas for your (and others’) consideration:

1. The home can and should be the primary place for the exercise of religion. You can go to church only one day a week but you live at home seven days a week.

Most important is to assemble the entire family for prayer each morning and evening and to read and discuss one chapter of scripture each day.

Assembling the entire family weekly for something like the Mormon Family Home Evening, which includes but is not limited to religious worship and instruction, is also very important. I am not suggesting that it needs to be the Mormon model of FHE and I do not know whether our specific model of FHE would be suitable for Catholics. However, without something like it, you are less likely to wind up pleased by the decisions your children make.

Just outside of the home, Mormon teenagers have Mutual one evening a week and Seminary early morning before each school day. Mormon college students have their own version of FHE on Monday evenings and (except at BYU) Institute one day or evening a week. I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that the Catholic Church makes equivalent programs freely available but that many Catholic young people do not participate.

I believe that non-Mormon sociologists have found that, in terms of the behavior of American teenagers, just saying prayers over meals and going to church on Sunday does not cut it. I have not seen such a study as to college students, but my suspician is that a teenager’s behavior usually carries over into behavior in college.

1. At least to an extent, responsible behavior of young people may not depend upon “what” religion the family practices, but I think it matters a great deal whether or not the family actually does “practice” their religion.

Because of my work, for the past nearly 15 years, many of my professional collegues and many of my clients have been Orthodox Jewish. Except for the yarmulkes on the Jewish men and the blond hair on the Mormons, the student bodies of BYU and the Yeshiva are pretty similar. (OK that was an exageration.) The same thing except more so is true as to Mormon and Orthodox Jewish teenagers in my area. Their parents are extremely proud of the way they conduct themselves.

Unfortunately, the same thing cannot be said for a great many of the Protestant and Catholic teenagers in my area. The things that my kids have told me about the high schools, and even the middle schools, of this affluent area would frighten you and maybe sicken you. I know just enough about Protestantism and Catholicism to know that this is not the way it is supposed to be. Their families, with the help of their churches, need to do something. Maybe that something is along the lines that I have suggested above.

Murdock

Murdock,
You and others on this thread have put out some really good information here.
I was born and raised in basically a “pre-vatican II” houseold, though I am part of the Vatican II generation (I was born in '55).

The Pre-vatican II Church was much more similar to some of the things you point out above. Catechesis was stronger, there was more involvement in Church activities, the religious life was held in higher regard, catholic Children were expected to marry within the faith and so on…
After Vatican II there was an emphasis on “Ecumenism” that had a number of unfortunate results. Something that we as catholics need to really work on fixing.

Peace
James

 

[Catholic20064]

This lighlighted portion is simply not an option. The ministerial priesthood is a full time vocation which includes the faculty of confecting the Eucharist. This simply cannot be passed on to “laymen” in the Church.
The Church has already done as much as she can to involve the lay faithful in roles formerly reserved to the priesthood. The permanent deaconate, Eucharistic minsters etc, have helped some.

As for the priest shortages, if it continues I suspect that the various diocese will be forced either to bring in priests fro oversees, or return to a greater use of religious priests.
However, I have great faith that Christ will supply what is needed.

Peace
James

Why can’t married men perform priestly functions? Why couldn’t an unpaid lay person perform the duties of a priest if the congregations were smaller?