My visit to Utah

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Why can’t married men perform priestly functions? Why couldn’t an unpaid lay person perform the duties of a priest if the congregations were smaller?
I’m not talking about "married men " but of “laymen”. You had said in your post, "The Catholic Church needs to seriously consider enabling more unpaid lay married men to act in the role of priest like the LDS Church does

The Catholic Church does, at present, have a small number of married priests.

Layman (married or not) cannot perform certain functions that are reserved to the ministerial priesthood. These things relate to the sacraments.

Specifically what “priestly functions” are you refering to that laymen should be permitted to laymen?

Peace
James
 
I’m not talking about "married men " but of “laymen”. You had said in your post, "The Catholic Church needs to seriously consider enabling more unpaid lay married men to act in the role of priest like the LDS Church does

The Catholic Church does, at present, have a small number of married priests.

Layman (married or not) cannot perform certain functions that are reserved to the ministerial priesthood. These things relate to the sacraments.

Specifically what “priestly functions” are you refering to that laymen should be permitted to laymen?

Peace
James
Fine. Let the lay married men become unpaid priests and give up their lay status. I think we would be amazed at what would happen.
 
So can we infer from this that active Mormon parents do a better job of training their children than active Catholic parents? And why would that be the case?
Probably has more to do with the BYU honor code than anything. Catholic universities have no such code, though, I’m certain many Catholic would be in support of implementing such a thing in our schools.
 
I’ve never been to Utah, but I have known Mormons. What I’ve seen is quite similar to many of the evangelical protestant groups. The apparent hard core dedication and enthusiasm in these groups is often merely a byproduct of the surprisingly high churn rate. People convert, get charged up, charge others up and a few years later, burn out/drop out. If you poke your head in at any time, the entire group seems tremendously happy and thriving. But poke your head into the same group 8 years later and you won’t see many of the same faces!

This experiential approach to faith is IMO one of THE largest causes of secularization in America. They are the exit ramp from christianity.

Real faith has little to do with how you feel. Mother Theresa was borderline depressed for much of the later part of her life. But she didn’t stop because her faith was not based on how her christian life made her FEEL, but on what the TRUTH of her faith was and the commitments she made to the source of that revelation - Christ. She believed that she could give love to the unloved and Grace allowed her to achieve it. She rarely FELT like she could make a difference, but in the end she did it anyways.

We live in an era where many have lost their faith or simply never really had any. Much of the infrastructure of our Church is hollowed out and people are coasting on cultural momentum. None of that matters if YOU believe and seek out and contribute to a community of believers. You just have to pray for it, and then work to make it happen.
 
I’ve never been to Utah, but I have known Mormons. What I’ve seen is quite similar to many of the evangelical protestant groups. The apparent hard core dedication and enthusiasm in these groups is often merely a byproduct of the surprisingly high churn rate. People convert, get charged up, charge others up and a few years later, burn out/drop out. If you poke your head in at any time, the entire group seems tremendously happy and thriving. But poke your head into the same group 8 years later and you won’t see many of the same faces!

This experiential approach to faith is IMO one of THE largest causes of secularization in America. They are the exit ramp from christianity.

Real faith has little to do with how you feel. Mother Theresa was borderline depressed for much of the later part of her life. But she didn’t stop because her faith was not based on how her christian life made her FEEL, but on what the TRUTH of her faith was and the commitments she made to the source of that revelation - Christ. She believed that she could give love to the unloved and Grace allowed her to achieve it. She rarely FELT like she could make a difference, but in the end she did it anyways.

We live in an era where many have lost their faith or simply never really had any. Much of the infrastructure of our Church is hollowed out and people are coasting on cultural momentum. None of that matters if YOU believe and seek out and contribute to a community of believers. You just have to pray for it, and then work to make it happen.
That’s not my experience. It is true the converts don’t often stick. The old guard Mormons who have been raised in the faith stay. If you see different faces it’s because Mormons often move for better job opportunities.
 
You have me thinking about my trip to Rome; seeing all priests walking around in their cassocks, sisters and brothers in their habits. Visiting The Pontifical North American College (Casa Santa Maria) to get Papal Audience tickets, seeing all the young priests, and taking time for prayer in the chapel. Seeing the Bishop of Rome and the thousands of people from around the world who also came to see him; feeling the excitement in the air. Visiting the crypt under St. Peter’s to see the graves of many of the Popes who came before him. Seeing the city where Peter and Paul were martyred. It felt wonderful to be in such an ancient city with deep Christian roots.
 
You have me thinking about my trip to Rome; seeing all priests walking around in their cassocks, sisters and brothers in their habits. Visiting The Pontifical North American College (Casa Santa Maria) to get Papal Audience tickets, seeing all the young priests, and taking time for prayer in the chapel. Seeing the Bishop of Rome and the thousands of people from around the world who also came to see him; feeling the excitement in the air. Visiting the crypt under St. Peter’s to see the graves of many of the Popes who came before him. Seeing the city where Peter and Paul were martyed. It felt wonderful to be in such an ancient city with deep Christian roots.
What are the Romans themselves like when it comes to religion? Are they faithful Catholics?
 
That’s not my experience. It is true the converts don’t often stick. The old guard Mormons who have been raised in the faith stay. If you see different faces it’s because Mormons often move for better job opportunities.
As a devout Mormon I lived both in UT and here in CT…

It’s a fair statement that many converts to Mormonism tend to go inactive within a year or so…the retention rate is poor…

But those who are born and bred often remain…

Its my understanding that the number of Mormons who are choosing to formally resign their membership has increased dramatically over the past decade or so…So much so that the office in Salt Lake headquarters has increased their staff size…(last I knew a man by the name of Greg Dodge was the head of Membership records)

Most of those who live probably are more like those who live the Catholic church…they simply just dont go anymore and fade a way
 
What are the Romans themselves like when it comes to religion? Are they faithful Catholics?
No. Romans themselves tend to be very secular.

I think the average weekly attendance at Mass throughout western Europe is at about 8%
 
What are the Romans themselves like when it comes to religion? Are they faithful Catholics?
I don’t speak Italian, so I wasn’t able to really talk with many to see if they were “faithful.” Their mass attendance is slightly lower than the US, so I can only assume they are about as faithful as the average American. Of course how “faithful” someone else is doesn’t really affect how faithful I am.
 
Probably has more to do with the BYU honor code than anything. Catholic universities have no such code, though, I’m certain many Catholic would be in support of implementing such a thing in our schools.
There are a handful of Catholic colleges that are very similar to BYU as far a dress code/emphasis on modesty/no drugs or alcohol allowed on campus etc. and do require students to adhere to the code as outlined in the handbook.

Thomas Aquinas College
Ave Maria University
Christendom College
Franciscan University of Steubenville
John Paul the Great University
 
Every ‘active’ LDS attends a 3hr service on Sunday, which inclues 1 hr of bible study or catechesis (adult and child). I think this regular group study along with urging to read scripture daily results in a well ‘catechised’ group of members.

If the Catholics followed up Mass with 1hr of group catechesis, it would solve alot of the problems I’ve read of on this forum.
Agreed. 👍
 
I don’t speak Italian, so I wasn’t able to really talk with many to see if they were “faithful.” Their mass attendance is slightly lower than the US, so I can only assume they are about as faithful as the average American. Of course how “faithful” someone else is doesn’t really affect how faithful I am.
If Marie5890 is correct, the mass attendance is about 8% which is far lower than the U.S. average. What it tells me is the Catholic priesthood as presently constituted is seriously failing in its work. I’m on that Mormon attendance in Europe is equally low because Mormons are mainly working with converts, but it is a shame that Catholic activity among traditional Catholics has become so low. If there is a problem in teaching them perhaps it means more teachers are required. Hopefully, the tipping point has not been reached beyond which recovery cannot happen. It will take the guidance of the Holy Spirit to change the situation, but it is unlikely the old ways will work. Somehow the Catholic Church needs to empower more faithful people to get involved in the work of saving souls. That may mean changing some traditions which are hampering the work – there is no reason unpaid married male clergy could not be a part of that solution unless those in power are more concerned about maintaining their grip on that power than they are about bringing people to God.
 
I went to Utah last week to visit with my family in Provo. It was a wonderful experience and makes me understand why I became Mormon in the first place. The students at BYU just have it all over the students at Catholic colleges I have known – they are more mature, more friendly and generally better behaved than what I have seen among Catholic students of the same age group. Catholic students at many Catholic colleges seem to be at school as much for the beer and for sex as they are for their studies. I went to the temple grounds because my wife was going to the temple and I really felt something peaceful there. I also went to the Cathedral in Salt Lake City. While it was very beautiful, it lacked something that I encountered at the Mormon locations. It almost makes me want to be baptized Mormon again. Even if the Book of Mormon isn’t true, their religion seems to make their active members better than our religion does. The only thing that holds me to Catholicism at this point is the Eucharist. If Mormons understood the Eucharist to be the literal body and blood of Jesus like we do, I think I might become Mormon again.
I strongly suggest visiting in person, or at least via website, the colleges I have listed on my post to Rebecca. They are very conversative and totally unlike most “Catholic” colleges people know about.

Look, there are several reasons for the things you are mentioning here.
  1. Strong encouragement for early marriage among Mormons at BYU therefore, you are seeing the students at their prime in “marriage mode” not “party mode.” Personally, I don’t care for either - they should be at college to become educated!
  2. I think “more friendly” would apply to the more conservative Catholic colleges as well, because everyone is pretty much on the same page.
  3. I live in Utah and have visited BYU - I do not share the same enthusiasm you do. The few couples I know that had a “dreamy” courtship at BYU either didn’t finish their education, are on the brink of divorce, or needed much assistance from parents to make a go of it financially. It all looks good when you are 18-21, but the divorce rate is in my neighborhood alone is shocking (and yes, some of them went to BYU 25+ years ago).
I remember visiting BYU years ago and feeling what it is you are articulating. I wondered “why don’t the Catholics have this?” Well, they do, it’s just that most of us don’t know about these schools because they don’t have football teams.
 
If Marie5890 is correct, the mass attendance is about 8% which is far lower than the U.S. average. What it tells me is the Catholic priesthood as presently constituted is seriously failing in its work. I’m on that Mormon attendance in Europe is equally low because Mormons are mainly working with converts, but it is a shame that Catholic activity among traditional Catholics has become so low. If there is a problem in teaching them perhaps it means more teachers are required. Hopefully, the tipping point has not been reached beyond which recovery cannot happen. It will take the guidance of the Holy Spirit to change the situation, but it is unlikely the old ways will work. Somehow the Catholic Church needs to empower more faithful people to get involved in the work of saving souls. That may mean changing some traditions which are hampering the work – there is no reason unpaid married male clergy could not be a part of that solution unless those in power are more concerned about maintaining their grip on that power than they are about bringing people to God.
She said 8% for Western Europe. The only country, I know with Mass attendance that low is France. Mass attendance in Italy is about 22% while the US is at about 25%.
I attend a very small parish with three masses per Sunday. Our priest can easily handle it. Lay people can sing in the choir, teach religious education, service on the Parish Council, and Finance Council. We don’t need more priests at my parish; we need more lay people to volunteer to fill positions which can be filled by lay people.
 
I went to Utah last week to visit with my family in Provo. It was a wonderful experience and makes me understand why I became Mormon in the first place. The students at BYU just have it all over the students at Catholic colleges I have known – they are more mature, more friendly and generally better behaved than what I have seen among Catholic students of the same age group. Catholic students at many Catholic colleges seem to be at school as much for the beer and for sex as they are for their studies. I went to the temple grounds because my wife was going to the temple and I really felt something peaceful there. I also went to the Cathedral in Salt Lake City. While it was very beautiful, it lacked something that I encountered at the Mormon locations. It almost makes me want to be baptized Mormon again. Even if the Book of Mormon isn’t true, their religion seems to make their active members better than our religion does. The only thing that holds me to Catholicism at this point is the Eucharist. If Mormons understood the Eucharist to be the literal body and blood of Jesus like we do, I think I might become Mormon again.
You should check out Franciscan University of Steubenville. One of the few truly Catholic universities left. My niece just graduated from there last year and I have never been so impressed with a group of young people in my life, every single person I met. The problem is, most of our Catholic universities are Catholic only in name anymore. They have fallen into the trap of believing tolerance is one of the seven virtues. Those that hold to Catholic teaching are producing extraordinary young graduates.
 
That may mean changing some traditions which are hampering the work – there is no reason unpaid married male clergy could not be a part of that solution unless** those in power are more concerned about maintaining their grip on that power than they are about bringing people to God.**
I also saw the statue of Bruno in the Campo dei Fiori.
 
If Marie5890 is correct, the mass attendance is about 8% which is far lower than the U.S. average. What it tells me is the Catholic priesthood as presently constituted is seriously failing in its work. I’m on that Mormon attendance in Europe is equally low because Mormons are mainly working with converts, but it is a shame that Catholic activity among traditional Catholics has become so low. If there is a problem in teaching them perhaps it means more teachers are required. Hopefully, the tipping point has not been reached beyond which recovery cannot happen. It will take the guidance of the Holy Spirit to change the situation, but it is unlikely the old ways will work. Somehow the Catholic Church needs to empower more faithful people to get involved in the work of saving souls. That may mean changing some traditions which are hampering the work – there is no reason unpaid married male clergy could not be a part of that solution unless those in power are more concerned about maintaining their grip on that power than they are about bringing people to God.
Catholic - You are over-simplifying the situation. There are several reasons why Catholics around the world have fallen away from their faith. Catholics from different countries see things from a different cultural perspective and behave accordingly. Also, I personally think (as in the case of the Italians) they take for granted what they have always had. In areas where there is not access to Cathedrals and priests etc, people are very faithful!

Also, as has been mentioned, there was a real “liberal takeover” after Vatican II (which was not the purpose of Vatican II) but somehow things were hijacked.

I know so many conservative, hard-working, devout, Catholics that are trying to raise their children properly and therefore, I don’t share the negative perspective.

I used to feel the way you do until I changed who I was hangin’ with, and now I find devout Catholics everywhere! Sure, they are not the majority, but that is to be expected.

I am not sure where you live, but living in Utah in a predominantly LDS neighborhood, I am not so quick to see the Mormons as having it all together. They have very good organizational skills within the wards, but that can also lead to other problems. I won’t go into it here, but believe me, some people find the “togetherness” suffocating.

I also enjoy the cleanliness of SLC down by Temple Square and it all looks very pretty on the outside. However, for the person who focuses on doctrine, it is hard to ignore the other parts.

My suggestion (and it is advice I have followed myself) is to seek out the more conservative Catholics and to study Church teachings more - this way we are not swayed by the exterior or by the Catholics who are not practicing their faith.

I guess what it is I am trying to say - I understand your frustration and have been there. Don’t let it throw you off, study and pray through it, and remember, you are not alone!!
Many of us who are trying to do the right thing are frustrated by the Catholics who behave badly. But nowhere in Church doctrine is it considered “okay” and we are not a religion that polices its members. Free will, my friend, free will.
 
Catholic students at many Catholic colleges seem to be at school as much for the beer and for sex as they are for their studies.
Catholic colleges have large populations of non-Catholics. So don’t assume that it is Catholic students who are not focusing on their studies.
 
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